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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-10-2019, 08:47 PM Thread Starter
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No turn signals

Just got the bird to fire off after having been building it for a year now, noticed the turn signals don't work...

Not sure if they ever did, but any advice for me to troubleshoot this starting tomorrow (when I begin re-assembling the front fascia) would be appreciated.
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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-10-2019, 09:58 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Check the brake lights as well, and see if the flashers work.

My goto problem for those issues is the MFS, short for motherfucking switch, I think.

The blinker lever is the MFS.

Why everything goes thru it, IDK, but it does. YOu can buy one, or disassemble it and clean all the copper contacts with 400grit sandpaper, then refill the housing with white lithium grease as you put it back together.

There are Two Sliders, and a spring, so take pix AS you disassemble it; there used to be pix here, but they're long gone.

I bought one from advanced in a pinch, and it only lasted a year before it caused the same problems; I cleaned the old one and swapped them, and it's been years now.

Not using it causes this problem; using your turn signals prevents this from going bad, strangely enough. (I always seem to lose the right turn first; but I almost got run over by a semi when the car had been parked for a year, and the brake lights didn't work.)
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Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-11-2019, 04:05 PM Thread Starter
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Appreciate the tips Grog, I'll definitely look into that gizmo soon as it does feel rather loose when I click the stick.

Whipped out the test light and poked a couple things, turns out the flasher itself quit as well as one of the lights was not making contact up front. Sorted the light out and slapped a new flasher in, turn signals work.

I'll keep my eye on the MFS as that may very well go out soon.
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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-11-2019, 06:46 PM
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Why everything goes thru it, IDK, but it does.
Well, think about it.

The CHMSL doesn't, so it's a good sanity check for the fuse and the BOO (Brake On Off) switch.

After that - we have single lights each side (brake and turn shares a filament.)

So they have to be switched by the MFS.

The hazard switch is part of it, so the FRONTS get switched.

Some of us use cornering lights; THAT has to be switched.

So all that goes through the multi function switch.

I'm not sure how else you'd arrange it, TBH.

(And let's not forget the dimmer is through it so they can move it up to the column instead of on the floor ... )

RwP

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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-11-2019, 07:12 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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I'm sure it makes the wiring simpler (READ: Cheaper), but I'd prefer a wired OR circuit, rather than a serial AND circuit.
If the brake switch, MFS, or Hazard flasher fails, your brake lights don't work.

My older cars were done like that; either switch can activate, and the failure mode is "stuck on", rather than "Stuck off".

Even the "Follow me" lights on the 68 we had failed working. (Check that out, for a study in complexity; there are several motor driven relays, I repaired it more than once.)

That said, Nothing wakes you up in the morning like a Semi screeching brakes close behind you, I must admit, lol.

I now check the brakelights Every time I get in the car, by making sure I can see the reflection off the house or other cars.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-11-2019, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
I'm sure it makes the wiring simpler (READ: Cheaper), but I'd prefer a wired OR circuit, rather than a serial AND circuit.
If the brake switch, MFS, or Hazard flasher fails, your brake lights don't work.
Think about it.

If it were a wired OR, then brake OR turn signal would turn it on.

And if so, how would you have turn signals when you were braking in the back?

No, if anything, an exclusive OR. And I'm not sure it's a serial AND circuit; it's more of an exclusion circuit.

RwP

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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-11-2019, 09:10 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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You're right, but the one in the 68 was wired thru relays, so that if you braked while the turn signal was on, it shifted the phase of the flash, but still flashed.

It's more complicated to do that way, but if you look at how ours is wired, there's no redundancy At All.

I'd have at least left the center brakelight out of the circuit, but it's involved as well. But not tied to the flashers, as it comes out earlier.
EDIT: This is not true. EVTM P149+ and P90+ shows the circuitry.

The Center light is only from the BOO (Brake On/Off) switch, according to the EVTM. No BOO switch, No Brakelights. It's on the brakepedal.

I must have had an intermittent fail there as well that fixed itself as I troubleshot it, as the center brakelight didn't work either.
The brake signal feeds thru the flasher module then MFS, but that is downstream from the BOO and center brakelights.

The center brakelights are in parallel, and usually melt the holders for the bulbs. You can buy lamp socket pigtails to replace them, and changing the bulb to an LED or a 3157LL will prevent future meltage.


Dang Ralph; now I have to go change the BOO switch just to make myself feel better.


I will stick with:

I check brakelight operation every time I leave in the car.
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Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 04:19 PM
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The Center light is only from the BOO (Brake On/Off) switch, according to the EVTM. No BOO switch, No Brakelights. It's on the brakepedal.

I must have had an intermittent fail there as well that fixed itself as I troubleshot it, as the center brakelight didn't work either.
The brake signal feeds thru the flasher module then MFS, but that is downstream from the BOO and center brakelights.

The center brakelights are in parallel, and usually melt the holders for the bulbs. You can buy lamp socket pigtails to replace them, and changing the bulb to an LED or a 3157LL will prevent future meltage.
As a side note, for earlier MN12 (like my 1991) the CHMSL goes nowhere NEAR the flasher module; BOO --> Primary Junction --> CHMSL and for the right and left it's BOO --> Primary Junction --> MFS with the flasher coming in a different pair of connectors. And being switched to the lights depending on the position of the turn signal switch and the hazard lamps.

Second side note: I have a 1K resistor in parallel with the CHMSL to keep the cruise working dependably, since for 1991, the resistance of the incandescent bulbs did the pull down for the BOO input to the cruise module. A 1K worked for me; math says somewhere between 470 ohm and 2.1K depending on the leakage through the input transistor. (Well, that also would keep the cruise from working if the CHMSL was burned out ... a weird interaction, but possibly desirable for safety reasons.)

Sorry if I sound a small bit pissy - frelling fuel pump has decided to not. Even jumping the fuel pump relay gets nothing. With 12V into the FPR.

And of COURSE the tank is almost full ...

(This will be the third pump that I know of; the one removed two years ago was a Fomoco labeled pump with Fomoco numbers, so I'm safe in saying a Delphi only lasted 2 years. Le sigh.)

RwP

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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 04:36 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RalphP View Post
...

Sorry if I sound a small bit pissy - frelling fuel pump has decided to not. Even jumping the fuel pump relay gets nothing. With 12V into the FPR.

And of COURSE the tank is almost full ...

(This will be the third pump that I know of; the one removed two years ago was a Fomoco labeled pump with Fomoco numbers, so I'm safe in saying a Delphi only lasted 2 years. Le sigh.)

RwP
No prob; I just hate our MFS.

I also have yet to have a fuel pump fail on a mostly empty tank; it always waits to die after you fill it up.


I've been putting the 255lph pumps in as they die; at least that will keep the return line clean, lol.

I've got a calibrated board, 2x12, cut to fit the tank, and another board attached to fit the tranny jack.

That makes it easy. (I built this the third time I dropped the tank on the Tbird, On the same day. The fuel gauge can be a bitch.)

Don't forget to drill the rivets that hold the lines to the chassis; one good hard pull and you're replacing lines.
IDK if they're there in the older chassis, but I bet they're the same.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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