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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-31-2008, 02:11 PM Thread Starter
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water4gas HHO (brown gas)

http://water4gas.com/2books.htm

so were building and installing one on a 82 F250 with a 460 soon to find out if it really helps. Anyone else try and build one?

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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-31-2008, 02:16 PM
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No, but I took high school chemistry and I know it doesn't.

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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-31-2008, 02:25 PM
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Yea, everyone should get cars running on water so the water companies can start charging $5 a gallon and make huge profits....

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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-31-2008, 02:31 PM Thread Starter
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkezh...eature=related

my gfs father has a friend in cali whos in the process already of install these on idustrial applications.

Oh well ill find out soon

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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-31-2008, 04:44 PM
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We just recently discussed this here --> http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=113712

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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-01-2008, 12:16 PM
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When they install a new fuel mileage device on their car, people ALWAYS notice an increase. If you were installing a fuel-saving cinder block to your trunk, you'd notice an improvement. It's because your brain is automatically in fuel saving mode and you drive more conservatively without even thinking about it.

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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-02-2008, 01:46 PM
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Ive heard that it just leans out your A/F mixture and if it setup in a way, you can get an extra mpg or so, but Id imagine your Exhaust Temps. would be much higher..
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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-02-2008, 02:16 PM
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Ive heard that it just leans out your A/F mixture and if it setup in a way, you can get an extra mpg or so, but Id imagine your Exhaust Temps. would be much higher..
That's the only thing it might be doing. And if that's the mechanism, why bother with building an on-board high school chemistry experiment? Just crack open a vacuum leack downstream of the MAF and have at it.

There is another thread I don't feel like searching for where I'm pretty sure I tabulated the relative energy densities of hydrogen and gasoline. If not, I'll gladly do it here later on. And let's not even discuss thermodynamics and where the energy to separate the water comes from...

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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-02-2008, 02:53 PM Thread Starter
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creating a vaccum leak is a different story that would just be unmetered air. The hho is two parts hydrogen one part oxyegen and hydrogen is a fuel. So your metering in more air and fuel not jsut a vaccum leak of air

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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-02-2008, 05:08 PM
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creating a vaccum leak is a different story that would just be unmetered air. The hho is two parts hydrogen one part oxyegen and hydrogen is a fuel. So your metering in more air and fuel not jsut a vaccum leak of air
Fair argument. So I'll ask: How much energy are you introducing when you do this? Let's say one quart of water being separated and injected into the engine. Do the research, and tell us how much energy is being used to perform the electrolysis (energy supplied by the engine, by the way). Then, tell us how much energy is produced when you burn that same hydrogen in the engine. And just for grins, how much energy is released by burning a quart of gasoline.

When you get those numbers, and you find that the energy required to separate the water is more than you get back from burning it, explain how you get better mileage. Because remember, that separation energy is being provided by the motor.

Seriously, do the research and report back. I'm curious.

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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-03-2008, 10:10 AM
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I have a friend who put one of these on his newer vehicle. He told me that with the high amount of hydrogen and oxygen the computer began adjusting the amount of fuel to compensate. He actually used more gas. The way around it is to trick the computer by messing with certain sensors. Sounds like a pita to me.

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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-03-2008, 12:53 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobey View Post
Fair argument. So I'll ask: How much energy are you introducing when you do this? Let's say one quart of water being separated and injected into the engine. Do the research, and tell us how much energy is being used to perform the electrolysis (energy supplied by the engine, by the way). Then, tell us how much energy is produced when you burn that same hydrogen in the engine. And just for grins, how much energy is released by burning a quart of gasoline.

When you get those numbers, and you find that the energy required to separate the water is more than you get back from burning it, explain how you get better mileage. Because remember, that separation energy is being provided by the motor.

Seriously, do the research and report back. I'm curious.
well we already have the goods most of it was just sitting aroudn in the garage and im on my way up there soon to start building it. Its a 460 with a edelbrok manifold and eldelbrock carb with true duals and flows. were just going to build one cell and have one vaccum line running to a tube welded into the filter top that will point towards the carb. to see if we get any improvment. His friend in cali witness for himself a 454 getting better gas milage so we will see. Some people are seeing any gain becasue some setups do need ecu retuning. They said cars that have a map sensor generaly see little or no gain without retuning. Carbs see the biggest gain as there ineficient as it is

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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-04-2008, 01:43 PM Thread Starter
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Well I built the hho generator and it did work. I built a stainless plate system first but the Terminals got too hot because the plates where too thick. So we ditched the plates and ran a stainless wire coil and it worked. It was too small to proablly make a difference. Sooon we will built a larger cell and actually road test it. But now i know what not and what to do from building the first one.

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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-04-2008, 01:57 PM
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Didn't I use marble chips and acid to produce hydrogen in high school?

Could we do that for our cars???
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-04-2008, 02:00 PM
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It would be interesting to see if the gains from he browns gas is actually from the gas or if the same gains could be gotten out of the carbureted system by just fine tuning the carburetor.

On the large engines, I suspect the browns gas is simply “fixing” the multiple problems in a carburetor system.

Now if the carburetor was originally fine tuned with oxygen sensors, on a dyno, etc. and there is an improvement, then I would buy the fact that the browns gas is the improver. But how many people tune a carburetor to that detail?

And can a carburetor even be “tuned” to that detail? IMHO, carburetors are such a POS from a mixture standpoint that anything would help. No adjustment for air temperature, no adjustment for altitude, little adjustment for load (ooooh a power valve that opens at a set vacuum point… ), no adjustment for WOT.. (ooooh again, an accelerator pump that just squirts x amount of fuel no matter what…), etc. etc. etc. Carbs were good for what was available at the time, but they are just band-aids on top of band-aids…

But keep us appraised. I would love to try it on my 97 Aspire, but without a good way to tune the OBD-II, I’m sort of SOL.

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post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-04-2008, 03:42 PM
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Carbs can be tuned very well for steady state conditions. Making them operate with that same efficiency over a variety of conditions is difficult (idle, cruise, full and part throttle acceleration, and the transitions between them).

The problem with any of the anecdotal "evidence" is repeatability. To prove it, you need to run a certain course at a given set of conditions, and repeat it before and after. I want throttle position data, speed data, rate of acceleration data, etc. Otherwise, it's an anecdotal story, not evidence.

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post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-13-2008, 10:35 AM
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Tobey,

A fella on my "other" forum is having a discussion too. He was able to get some tests done. I'll try to break this up. One loooooooong sentence.

"I have an HHO update.

One of the Plant Engineers (read 'handymen') here at the school has built himself an HHO generator, and installed it in a '98 Chrysler Sebring. He was bragging about the power, smoothness, economy... I asked for a demostration and review of his system. He gladly obliged.

I found one part rather curious... Part of his 'kit' that he had purchased included an 'O2 sensor calibrator', which was nothing more than a potentiometer tied into both PCM Vref (+5v) and the O2 signal wire. He allowed me to connect a scan tool to the car while we went for a drive. The pot biases the O2 signal fat/rich, and the PCM responds by leaning out the system, perportedly to allow the H2 gas an opportunity to react with the additional unused oxygen (or so the theory goes).

I asked if could diconnect and block off the hydrogen generator so I could get some additional baseline readings. 'Sure, no problem' was his response. During the concurrent test drive and data recording, we noticed a curious thing... no significant change in performance (up or down) without the HHO generator! No real change in sensor data, either. I asked him to drive it this way for one full tank of fuel. Guess what? His fuel economy didn't change either....

Apparently, it's not the 'magic' HHO gas that bumps your economy; it's running the engine so lean it's near meltdown that does it. He allowed me to sniff his exhaust, pre-cat, to see what his gasses were. HOLY CRAP!!!!!!! NoX was thru the freakin' roof!!!! I stuck a thermocouple into the exhaust stream, and it came back nearly 1400 degF!!!! It should be 1000 degF, tops!!! We reintroduced the generator, and the exhaust gases stayed nearly the same, with only significant change being about a 100 degF drop in EGT."

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post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-24-2008, 01:28 AM
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I've checked out this site for quite awhile i have a 96 t-bird with a few random mods and i just made a decently sized hho generator it makes about 2 liters every minute and 40 seconds even more when its hot and only draws around 17 to 20 amps peak which can be adjusted depending how much electrolyte you use, also by no means should you use baking soda and you can only use distilled water or it will corrode your plates like crazy! I use sodium hydroxide in my generator i just finished it the other day and plan on hooking it up sometime this week. its in a 4 inch piece of pvc pipe and made of 18 plates of 304 stainless. also i saw someone said these dont do anything but if your puttin the right amount in which it really doesnt take all that much you can lower your exhaust temp if you need the explanation on how thats possile google it its all over the place i dont plan on useing one of the efie as they call them (electronic fuel injection enhancer) basicall a fancy name for a circuit board that varies the voltage from the o2 sensor as stated earlier in the thread but if i need one then i might give it a shot. Also if you dont beleive these things work...i can make a video of how explosive the gas is and how much it makes, launching 2 liter soda bottles is pretty fun with these also. if anyone has any questions or anything feel free to ask i dont know everything about these but i know quite a bit
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post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-24-2008, 11:20 AM
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Like Tobey and others have said, this won't work.

If you had a nuclear reactor in the trunk, making unlimited electrical power, you could split water into enough hydrogen and oxygen to run the car from water.

Otherwise, not happening.

Water and CO2 are two of the lowest energy forms of matter...to split them up takes more energy than they give off when you burn them, in an electrolytic process. No non-enzymatic process of splitting those compounds up is anywhere near 100% efficiency. Photosynthetic Cells are close, but they burn other fuel as well... (ATP? I forget...)

Most of these gas-saver devices that I've seen lean the mix to the point of eventual destruction; aluminum melts (AND burns in an oxygen-rich environment, like a over-lean cylinder )

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post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-24-2008, 11:35 AM
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Can't wait till these people with the HHO generators need engine rebuilds.

From a chemistry standpoint all these stupid plates are doing IS MAKING STEAM, not separating hydrogen from oxygen. -_-

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post #21 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-24-2008, 01:18 PM
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why would it cause me to need an engine rebuild? and if you think all the plates do is make steam then please inform me when steam became explosive?
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post #22 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-24-2008, 08:52 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Ghost View Post
Can't wait till these people with the HHO generators need engine rebuilds.

From a chemistry standpoint all these stupid plates are doing IS MAKING STEAM, not separating hydrogen from oxygen. -_-
The 1800:1 ratio pretty much gives that away; the steam generator thing, that is...

The hydrogen in a gallon of water fits in a smaller volume than that.

So does the oxygen, for that matter.

Great salesmanship; bad chemistry.

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