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post #1 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-01-2018, 10:19 AM Thread Starter
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No mistakes, just happy accidents.

Finally decided to make my own thread so I can stop taking over other ones. A quick re cap of what happened across many threads and in the chat box:
I built an engine from an 03 Panther chassis ( I forget which one), had to get a new oil pan because I installed an HO oil pump, while doing that I modified some headers to fit the car, had issues with a cheap FTI TC I bought, and recently ran into an issue with my SCT chip causing the car to dump fuel into the cylinders. I went into detail here: http://forums.tccoa.com/7-engine-4-6...oth-banks.html

I recently started data logging to see what is happening with the car.
The chip is already in the mail to be looked over. In the meant time, I have been checking out what the cars stock EEC is doing. So far, this is what I have found:
Fuel trim bank 1 short term: 1.56%
Fuel trim bank 2 short term: 42.19%

Upon first start up, both were zero'd out until I gave a blip of the throttle, then they picked sides, like how you see in my 'last recorded reading'. When I blipped the throttle again, they swapped over. I dont know whats happening. At cruise (part throttle) they tend to stick to the same path but its not a very smooth line.

Fuel trim bank 1 long term: 7.81%
Fuel trim bank 2 long term: 11.72%

Im assuming this is what counts, but Id like to get the short term readings as close as these numbers are

Air Fuel Ratio (measured): 14.4
o2 volts bank 1: 0.75v
o2 volts bank 2: 0.085v
Volumetric Efficiency (Calculated): 19%

These were all taken at idle, at the time of writing this there are still people in my area that will call the cops on me if I take it on the street just because of how loud it is.

If anyone knows more about this stuff and could tell me whats going on, thatd be awesome.

I wont just use this as a data logging thread, just new stuff I am up to with the car will go here.

Probably a shitty first post but Im hoping I can only get better from this

Stacy: 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Ellie: 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end
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post #2 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-01-2018, 11:53 AM
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At any given time, the total fuel trim is going to be the sum of the short term plus the long term. So if the long term is 11%, and the short term is 42%, that means it is adding 51% more fuel than it is expecting, which means something is wrong, especially if it is doing so at idle! My first thought would be a vacuum leak that is only affecting the one bank, like and intake gasket leak, but the other thing to consider is if you have no exhaust on this thing, then the O2 sensors are going to be picking up oxygen from the outside air, especially at idle, and that is going to throw all the readings way off. I would start by getting an exhaust on it, and then see what the fuel trims do before you go nuts chasing what may be a non-existant problem.

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post #3 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-01-2018, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
...but the other thing to consider is if you have no exhaust on this thing, then the O2 sensors are going to be picking up oxygen from the outside air, especially at idle, and that is going to throw all the readings way off. I would start by getting an exhaust on it, and then see what the fuel trims do before you go nuts chasing what may be a non-existant problem.
Nice diagnosis!

You need at least ~4ft past the sensor, iirc.

They call the backflow "exhaust reversion"; if it's further in than ~12", it should get better at higher throttle settings. (more outflow)

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post #4 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-01-2018, 01:30 PM Thread Starter
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At any given time, the total fuel trim is going to be the sum of the short term plus the long term. So if the long term is 11%, and the short term is 42%, that means it is adding 51% more fuel than it is expecting, which means something is wrong, especially if it is doing so at idle! My first thought would be a vacuum leak that is only affecting the one bank, like and intake gasket leak, but the other thing to consider is if you have no exhaust on this thing, then the O2 sensors are going to be picking up oxygen from the outside air, especially at idle, and that is going to throw all the readings way off. I would start by getting an exhaust on it, and then see what the fuel trims do before you go nuts chasing what may be a non-existant problem.
You are probably right with the exhaust. Itll stick with one bank, but if I rev the engine itll then switch which bank gets more fuel. I have about 15 inches of pipe off the back of the headers, Im guessing that wont do much?

I checked the cylinders today after running it and there was no excess gas in either one of them, if that means anything idk.

Stacy: 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Ellie: 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end
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post #5 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-01-2018, 01:44 PM
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From what I read earlier, the lower the flow thru the engine, the less accurate it is.

I would probably be fine, lol.

I'd bring the exhaust out in front of the rear wheels, that looks pretty good.

And if you angle the tip up slightly, you will scare the cars beside you to Death, by nailing it from a stoplight.


Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
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post #6 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-01-2018, 02:40 PM Thread Starter
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From what I read earlier, the lower the flow thru the engine, the less accurate it is.

I would probably be fine, lol.

I'd bring the exhaust out in front of the rear wheels, that looks pretty good.

And if you angle the tip up slightly, you will scare the cars beside you to Death, by nailing it from a stoplight.

That the idea lol.

I just thought about this, but could it be getting bad readings since the car is running long tubes untuned?

Stacy: 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Ellie: 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end

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post #7 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-01-2018, 06:22 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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...
I just thought about this, but could it be getting bad readings since the car is running long tubes untuned?
No, not really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
...They call the backflow "exhaust reversion"...
It sucks air in from the end of the pipe between exhaust pulses, and the o2 sensor averages them together.

Too much o2 means dump fuel, so that's exactly what you're seeing.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
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post #8 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-01-2018, 07:58 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post

Too much o2 means dump fuel, so that's exactly what you're seeing.
Its at least not as bad as it was before. Im not finding pools in the cylinders like I was. Either way, I have my muffler in the mail and Ill be going to a shop to have everything made up when I do get it. Ill log it on the way back from the installation to see if it fixes the trim issues.

Stacy: 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Ellie: 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end
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post #9 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-27-2018, 11:55 AM Thread Starter
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Now that I have exhaust on my car and can hear the noises in the engine bay, I think I found the cause to all my problems to be an intake gasket. Makes me feel like a dumb ass lol. MadMikeyL called it earlier, so props to him.

On the way home from the shop My check engine light came on, flashing. Checked out the codes and would you believe I had a cylinder 5, 6, and 7 misfire with a Bank 2 lean code to boot. I ran the car with the hood popped and heard a periodic "woosh" sound (the closest thing I can think to it is when you push air out from from between your palms) coming from the intake manifold, more towards bank 2. This makes me think its a portion of the gasket towards the inside of the engine.

One thing the engine has had since I got it running was an absolutely horrible throttle response, a shaky idle, and no power under 2500 rpm. Recently, the car has a hard time starting once its brought up to temperature. I was thinking it might be a head gasket, but the car isnt burning coolant or oil. I also changed the oil yesterday and there was no coolant in it (no metal either which is a bonus for me).

Im thinking I either didint use the correct torque sequence or the right torque measurement, or maybe cheap gaskets (they came in a felpro kit).

Im planning on replacing the gaskets today or tomorrow depending on when the Ford dealer calls me back saying they have them. If anyone could chime in on what they think it is, agree that the IM gasket is the issue, I would be appreciative.

Stacy: 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Ellie: 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end

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post #10 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-27-2018, 12:23 PM
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Another possibility, which I have done before, is it is easy to get a wire pinched under the intake as you are sliding the intake in, and if that is stuck under there, the manifold won't go down all the way, and will create a large vacuum leak.

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post #11 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-27-2018, 03:13 PM Thread Starter
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Another possibility, which I have done before, is it is easy to get a wire pinched under the intake as you are sliding the intake in, and if that is stuck under there, the manifold won't go down all the way, and will create a large vacuum leak.
I put the intake on before I did any wiring but Ill double check. I have the gaskets so Ill do that tonight. If that doesnt fix it, do you know what else would cause the issues and the sound Im having?

Stacy: 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Ellie: 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end
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post #12 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-27-2018, 03:32 PM
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Felpro gaskets are as good as Motorcraft on these engines. Only OEM gaskets I went with on mine are the exhaust manifolds and rear main seal, Felpro everywhere else down to the valve guide seals. It's sealed tight as a drum.

I'm not saying there's no leak, but I still can't help but the attribute throttle response, shaky idle, and no power under 2500 rpm to the undegreed aftermarket cams.

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post #13 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-27-2018, 05:01 PM Thread Starter
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Im starting to think against the gaskets too, I didnt start to swap them yet so I want to get some input before I commit.

I listened to the car run again and the noise is at its loudest from the very center of the engine, from the back of the alternator to throttle cable side of the plenum. Still is just a "woosh" sound but it is getting progressively louder. At this point, I dont have a clue.


Im thinking I would have had this engine swap done faster, for the same price, and with more power if I had gone with a 5.3 chevy. Even with having to swap the electronics.

I know that the cams would make their most if they were degreed, and they would act better if they were, but if they were the only issue it wouldnt be this bad.

Stacy: 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Ellie: 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end
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post #14 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-27-2018, 05:22 PM
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Im starting to think against the gaskets too, I didnt start to swap them yet so I want to get some input before I commit.

I listened to the car run again and the noise is at its loudest from the very center of the engine, from the back of the alternator to throttle cable side of the plenum. Still is just a "woosh" sound but it is getting progressively louder. At this point, I dont have a clue.


Im thinking I would have had this engine swap done faster, for the same price, and with more power if I had gone with a 5.3 chevy. Even with having to swap the electronics.

I know that the cams would make their most if they were degreed, and they would act better if they were, but if they were the only issue it wouldnt be this bad.
I'd love to see a 5.3L or a 350 swap just for the blasphemy.
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post #15 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-27-2018, 05:26 PM Thread Starter
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I'd love to see a 5.3L or a 350 swap just for the blasphemy.
-g
I have know about this car for a while, comes out of Russia I think.


Stacy: 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Ellie: 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end
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post #16 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-28-2018, 08:20 AM Thread Starter
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I found this video and this is closest to the sound I am hearing. I am using this instead of my own car because it still really loud and the mic on my phone doesnt pick it up any noises in the engine bay. I am going to try a smoke test before I rip into anything.


Stacy: 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Ellie: 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end

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post #17 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-28-2018, 10:11 AM Thread Starter
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Massive Vacuum Leak

Ok, so the smoke test revealed a few places that make me kinda worried, but nothing is coming out under the intake so I feel a little better.

First, the vacuum line tree. I have a picture of what I found, and it looks like it is completely snapped! I know this will cause issues, so Im happy I found that. I know the FPR is attached to the red side. Im working on fixing it since I dont know where to get a new one.

Second, the IAC seems to have a lot of smoke coming from it, but its coming from a little black tab I have pictured as well. Is this supposed to be an opening? Its the same one the car had before the swap but I dont know if that is supposed to be open or not.
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Stacy: 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Ellie: 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end
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post #18 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-28-2018, 12:52 PM Thread Starter
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Took it for a drive. Over all seems better but Still has a Cylinder 7 misfire. Its getting fuel. Can some one tell me where the Fuel pump relay or fuse is so I can check spark?

Stacy: 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Ellie: 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end
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post #19 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-28-2018, 01:08 PM
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Unplug the inertia switch in driver side the trunk, there's a cut in the carpet at the top where it's located.

The vacuum tree you posted is the EGR vacuum regulator connector, the red line is the vacuum source to the regulator, green line is the actuated vacuum to control the valve. If this is broken off the regulator or unplugged you have definite a vacuum leak. If you don't have EGR, plug the red line.

There's a separate red line that goes straight from the plenum directly to the FPR.

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post #20 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-28-2018, 01:24 PM Thread Starter
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Unplug the inertia switch in driver side the trunk, there's a cut in the carpet at the top where it's located.

The vacuum tree you posted is the EGR vacuum regulator connector, the red line is the vacuum source to the regulator, green line is the actuated vacuum to control the valve. If this is broken off the regulator or unplugged you have definite a vacuum leak. If you don't have EGR, plug the red line.

There's a separate red line that goes straight from the plenum directly to the FPR.
The EGR assembly is there but its not attached to the exhaust. I have a thin block off plate in between the valve and the plenum, just so it looks like its still connected. Could I just use a gasket maker to plug the inside of the line at the Regulator and EGR?

Stacy: 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Ellie: 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end
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post #21 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-28-2018, 01:58 PM Thread Starter
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Its getting spark and fuel. Next thing Im trying is compression. As stated in a previous post I found nothing in the oil when I changed it that shouldnt be there and the cylinders, all of them, look clear of debris and the walls look good. Really hoping I didnt do something stupid like put in a compression ring upside down.

I still have a bank 2 lean code and now I have a bank 2 NOx code (P2001).

I did find another crack in the separate red line going to the FRP (I always thought they were the same for some reason, thanks Matt) and fixed that one. I ran some shrink tube down to the spots and closed them up, they both seem to be air tight

On another note, my transmission code ended up being about Speed sensor output, so ill be ordering a new one of those once I know if I fucked this engine or not.

Stacy: 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Ellie: 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end
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post #22 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 11:15 AM Thread Starter
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Well today I have found some more issues. I found that the TPS was reading 20% throttle when my foot wasnt on the accelerator (even after changing the sensor), my timing is advanced 30 degrees while cruising at 40 MPH at 1900 RPM and 20 degrees at idle (used to be 12 when I first started logging), and the car tries to stall as I pull into my driveway, even if I put the trans in neutral. The noise I have been hearing seems to be going lower into the engine the louder it gets. I changed the oil in the car before I noticed it (Mobil 1 5w-30 is what went in, same oil I have always used for my engines), didnt find any metal at all in the old oil. I got a compression tester and will testing the all the cylinders shortly.

Does anyone have an idea of what the hell this issue might be? Why the timing is so advanced? Could the noise be some kind of spark knock? The misfires seem to only happen on WOT pulls now, and I have been getting "random/mulitple" cylinders recently in stead of just 7, though it still pops up. I still cant get the noise on video, mic wont pick it up.

Only thing I can say is good is that once I changed the TPS, the fuel trims look a lot better. Long Term for both banks stay within 5% and -5% on the graph, while the short term for both stays between 5% and 10%. Much better than the 40% difference between banks I was having before, and my lean code is gone.

Stacy: 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Ellie: 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end
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post #23 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 11:25 AM
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What throttle body are you using, and have you made any adjustments on it?

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post #24 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 11:37 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
What throttle body are you using, and have you made any adjustments on it?
The stock one, no adjustments. I have noticed the throttle cable springs almost when the TB is slammed shut. But I have a 75mm TB and plenum sitting around. The sensor is in the same position on both.

Stacy: 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Ellie: 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end
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post #25 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 02:31 PM Thread Starter
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Cylinder 1: 180
Cylinder 2: 180
Cylinder 3: 175
Cylinder 4: 180
Cylinder 5: 180
Cylinder 6: 0
Cylinder 7: 0
Cylinder 8: 175

These are the results of the compression test. I know its a head gasket. I just dont know why. Either way, this engine was apparently trash from the start. I dont know where to go from here. A lot of money, time, and effort wasted. I thank you all for your help with trying to figure this stuff out.

Stacy: 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Ellie: 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end
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post #26 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 02:35 PM
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Yeah that's pretty definitive, sorry to see.

-Matt
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post #27 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 02:56 PM
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A head gasket isn't the end of the world. It can even be done in the car without pulling the engine again. Pull that head off, and see what happened. The first thing that comes to mind is did you use a straight-edge and check to make sure that the head wasn't warped?

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post #28 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 03:00 PM
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Pull the driver's valvecover; let's see what happened.

This could be as easy as two followers have been flung out. But probably not.

You probably need two intake valves, and possibly guides.

And some play-doh for setting it back up.

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post #29 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
Pull the driver's valvecover; let's see what happened.

This could be as easy as two followers have been flung out. But probably not.

You probably need two intake valves, and possibly guides.

And some play-doh for setting it back up.
I could see this happening on one cylinder, or happening on more than one random cylinders, but two adjacent cylinders with no compression means head gasket is the prime candidate. If so, Mikey's right, no biggie, just some work and 60-70 bucks for a new gasket as long as nothing else is wrong. With both the heads and block being milled I wouldn't expect them to be warped.

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post #30 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 03:26 PM Thread Starter
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With the long tubes the way they are I cant get the header off the heads with the engine in the car, and even leaving them on I probably wouldnt be able to get the head high enough out of the car see what went wrong and fix it. Plus as Matt already said, the engine and heads were resurfaced before I put it together already.

Stacy: 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Ellie: 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end
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