4.6 PI head swap with Bullitt intake - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-26-2012, 07:18 PM Thread Starter
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4.6 PI head swap with Bullitt intake

D
Doing a PI head swap on a 1994 Tbird. Bullitt intake. 2 stages of Nitrous, 100 on the hit 150 hp second gear activated. 2 nd stage on it's own fuel system. MSD 4DIS with timers, Msd coils & 10mm Wires, 4:10 gear. Built AOD with 2800 Stahl converter. JBA headers. 2.5 " Off road H pipe & flowmaster exhaust.
Can anyone here give me more advice? I want to drive in and go in the 11's
I'm neer completion but will spend what ever to make this thing hook and go!
Gary

Last edited by mrkwikgt; 01-26-2012 at 07:23 PM. Reason: added
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post #2 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-26-2012, 07:25 PM
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FYI the stock trans is a 4R70W. What cams? Any portwork on the heads? I'd recommend more stall, 3500-3800 or even 4000. Who is the tuner?

-Brandon
97 Laser Red Thunderbird LX 162k, Stage 2 4.6L 2v N/A | 300 BHP (255 RWHP, 290 RWTQ) | 13.95 @ 97.58 | Build details | Pics at the Lorain Assembly plant
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post #3 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-26-2012, 07:29 PM
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Bullitt intake... I hate you!! Lol i want one so bad for my gt motor im building. I agree with Brandon on the stall for that build. And yes also its a 4r70w. Not AOD. Are you keeping the stock pulleys?

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post #4 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-26-2012, 07:33 PM Thread Starter
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Aod.

My car and I own 3 of these all have been fitted with Abrusi built AOD's!
My cars driven, 3800-4000 stahl is not for me on the street. I'll go with more rear gear and give up some stahl.
I'm looking more for HOOK UP advice then power advice!
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post #5 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-26-2012, 07:35 PM
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X2 on the trans/converter

Forget the MSD garbage, stock is more than adequate and 1,000,000 times more reliable. Especially the DIS 4.

Ditto for the JBAs. Port a set of stock manifolds and your good to go, especially if you get them ceramic coated inside and out.

-Matt
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post #6 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-26-2012, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mrkwikgt View Post
My car and I own 3 of these all have been fitted with Abrusi built AOD's!
My cars driven, 3800-4000 stahl is not for me on the street. I'll go with more rear gear and give up some stahl.
To each their own, but good converters with high stall won't hurt your streetability. Once you hit lockup, stall doesn't matter, anyways.

You can use long tube headers for a Mustang since they are cheaper, but you will have some minor clearance issues on the passenger side and you'll have major issues on the driver's side - have to relocate the steering shaft or customize the header. 2 1/2" duals with no cats helps, too!

+1 on the UDP's - every little bit helps!

11's is pretty optimistic - good luck to you with your build! Sounds quick! Lighten the bejeezus out of your Bird!

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post #7 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-26-2012, 07:37 PM
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Post some pics and you might get a bit of a talking to. Lots of people come in wanting to do all this stuff, and just ask. Well this site has hundreds and hundreds of threads that have information you need. So don't be afraid to search!

These cars are a little heavy (3700 pounds-ish w/o driver). and 11's seems a bit far fetched, especailly since these cars stock run around 15.5-16.0 well maintained. In a Mustang, your gonna be alot closer to your goal. MN12's are better away Not dissing your plans just letting you know what you have to overcome

Anywho, first Introduce yourself, what got you into MN12s? Pictures of your car? Find out who else in Ohio, and ask them to meet up. Looking forward to your progress. Good luck with your bird!

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post #8 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-26-2012, 07:37 PM
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Chill out dude, it's very unusual to see any 4.6 with an AOD (and for good reason). I said they came with 4R70Ws stock, not necessarily that what you had was one. It's your first post - we don't know what your level of expertise is. If you've got a bullet intake, you'll want to get high in the powerband - and quick, if you want low ETs. And you won't get to those RPMs with stock internals either.

By the way, it's stall, not "stahl".

And in my opinion... you just wasted a bunch of money building and swapping in an AOD. The 4R70W is boatloads stronger than the AOD.

-Brandon
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post #9 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-26-2012, 07:42 PM
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Chill out dude, it's very unusual to see any 4.6 with an AOD (and for good reason). I said they came with 4R70Ws stock, not necessarily that what you had was one. It's your first post - we don't know what your level of expertise is. If you've got a bullet intake, you'll want to get high in the powerband - and quick, if you want low ETs. And you won't get to those RPMs with stock internals either.

By the way, it's stall, not "stahl".

And in my opinion... you just wasted a bunch of money building and swapping in an AOD. The 4R70W is boatloads stronger than the AOD.
You guys may be talking about the same tranny; 4R70W is just an electronic AOD, anyways.

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post #10 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-26-2012, 07:43 PM
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The AODE was an electronic AOD. The 4R70W uses a different gearset/ratio, valve body, output/input shaft, etc. etc.

-Brandon
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post #11 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-26-2012, 07:47 PM
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And bellhousing bolt pattern

AOD, AODE, 4R70w are all in the same family, the AODE and 4R being most similar besides ratios

-Matt

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post #12 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-26-2012, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
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I'm looking more for HOOK UP advice then power advice!
Then why is this in the engine tech forum?

-Matt
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post #13 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-26-2012, 07:57 PM
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Can anyone here give me more advice?
Sounds like you asked for advice in general.

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Then why is this in the engine tech forum?
+1

If you're not interested in hearing what we have to say, do some searching. Get some drag radials, find a track that does good prep, and experiment with launch RPM/tire PSI.

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post #14 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-26-2012, 08:35 PM
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Hmmm let me look into the future, I suggest a set of pistons and rods.

And put a real tire on it, a slick, why people try to race on a street tire I'll never understand.

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post #15 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-26-2012, 09:52 PM
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27 or 28x10.5 tires minimum. Get airbags for the rears to control how much squat your car has/needs. Get stiffer bushings anywhere in the back you can. Make sure your trac loc is working good and the clutches are good. Lighten up the front for better weight transfer.

Go to a track that is known for hooking well.

Are you spraying a 100 shot and then a 150 shot on top of that in second gear?

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post #16 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-27-2012, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by SuperThunderbirdLX View Post

These cars are a little heavy (3700 pounds-ish w/o driver). and 11's seems a bit far fetched, especailly since these cars stock run around 15.5-16.0 well maintained. In a Mustang, your gonna be alot closer to your goal. MN12's are better away Not dissing your plans just letting you know what you have to overcome
OH Really?????

Steve
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Cougar ET-Stock 4.6 shortblock/Stock PI headswap Bullitt NA 12.94 @ 105+
Nitrous 11.75 @ 114 MPH

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post #17 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-27-2012, 09:04 PM
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I didn't say it wasn't possible. Maybe id be able too tell if he listed in detail what his mods were. Your running 12.94 all motor, that is a decent feat itself.

-Daniel

My driving is a constant struggle between wanting good gas mileage and driving like I'm Mario Andretti.

http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=134659&page=4

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post #18 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-27-2012, 09:33 PM
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Your car has a 4r70w if you care to argue that u might as well not even reply, but serious it's a 4r70w I've worked on a ton of these cars, also id look at a nice set of cams for those heads maybe contact MHS and talk with nick

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post #19 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-27-2012, 09:55 PM
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I think we might have scared him off.

-Brandon
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post #20 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-27-2012, 10:03 PM
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You guys scared off another one! Everyone who comes in here for a project gets ran out of town lol. But then again, they usually know it all anyway, so what's the use for the forum...

I love my V8, but I'd love it more if all 8 cylinders worked. (they do now)

My T-bird is like George Jetson's wife, you try to give her a little money, she takes the whole wallet.
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post #21 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-27-2012, 10:06 PM
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It's like... you have perception x of these cars. We have perception y. You don't like hearing that perception x is all wrong and perception y is right, because you OBVIOUSLY know more about these cars than we do since you've already spent $xxxxxx building your perception x car.

Why ask for advice if you won't consider or listen to what you're told? All these noobs are so full of themselves...

-Brandon
97 Laser Red Thunderbird LX 162k, Stage 2 4.6L 2v N/A | 300 BHP (255 RWHP, 290 RWTQ) | 13.95 @ 97.58 | Build details | Pics at the Lorain Assembly plant
98 Black Mark VIII 160k, stock daily driver
07 Redfire Fusion V6 SEL 178k, for the wife
Gone but not forgotten: 96 Mark VIII, 94 Cougar XR7, 93 Mark VIII

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post #22 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-27-2012, 10:10 PM
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It's like... you have perception x of these cars. We have perception y. You don't like hearing that perception x is all wrong and perception y is right, because you OBVIOUSLY know more about these cars than we do since you've already spent $xxxxxx building your perception x car.

Why ask for advice if you won't consider or listen to what you're told?
We're all guilty of it. If I always listened to what I was told, I would be driving a 93 Camry. Yuk. Instead, I bought my bird with the engine I wanted (almost), and had to replace it twice. But in the end, I loved every second of it, and I learned more than a Camry could've ever taught me. Also, try getting someone to join you in the back of a 4cyl Camry.

I love my V8, but I'd love it more if all 8 cylinders worked. (they do now)

My T-bird is like George Jetson's wife, you try to give her a little money, she takes the whole wallet.
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post #23 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-27-2012, 10:22 PM
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I never had that problem, I'm just always right lol

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post #24 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-27-2012, 11:56 PM
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I think we might have scared him off.
We here at TCCoA are good at that. TCCoA shattering the dreams of idiots since 2002.

No one likes to hear that they need more stall or that the built AOD transmission they just bought is about the same strength as the 4r70w they replaced it with and that the 4r70w could have been built up stronger likely for less, not to mention the other many flawed concepts he's trying to put into action. It seems like another idiot coming here to reaffirm his ideas were solid and instead of trying to take the criticism positively and correct his flawed concepts and get what he wanted he would rather storm off. Turns out he probably doesn't have enough to make it "hook and go" lol.

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post #25 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-28-2012, 12:33 AM
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We here at TCCoA are good at that. TCCoA shattering the dreams of idiots since 2002.

No one likes to hear that they need more stall or that the built AOD transmission
No no, it is Stahl .. totally different when you have an AOD. ..
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post #26 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-28-2012, 12:46 AM
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No no, it is Stahl .. totally different when you have an AOD. ..
Wow lol I didn't know they made torque converters, last I checked they made these overhead cranes....


-1996 Pearl White Thunderbird 4.6 Sport 4v with many mods:
Current Best: 13.583 @ 103.74 10/2014.
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post #27 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-28-2012, 01:02 AM
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Wow, 16000 Stahl! GM will be jealous...

-Brandon
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post #28 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-28-2012, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by SuperThunderbirdLX View Post
I didn't say it wasn't possible. Maybe id be able too tell if he listed in detail what his mods were. Your running 12.94 all motor, that is a decent feat itself.

The car is a stock cast iron 96 shortblock (Not Aluminum), PI conversion with a Bullitt Intake and TB. It has bolt ons, underdrive pulleys, 90 MM Maf, 30# injectors, Adjustable FPR and the like with only JBA Shortie headers. It has a stall converter, Jmodded stock 4R70 and 4.30 gears in an alumuminum Mark VIII housing. OF course it also has a good tune with the mods.

I run a ZEX Dry kit on the spray with a 125 shot. The engine and drivetrain is nothing special.

I have custom made Subframe connectors and DS loops under the car along with Adjustable air bags in the rear springs and aftermarket rear shocks.

The car in that configuration has gone a best of 13.1 @ 104 MPH and 11.89 @ 113+ on the spray and that is with full interior, all belts etc, with only the spare and jack removed. I run on front skinnies on stock aluminum spares and stock rear wheels with either a 26" tire normally on the motor and 28" drag tires on the Nitrous runs. The car in that configuration was weighed on two seperate occasions with driver at right around 3750-3800 lbs.

So if you know what you are doing, have the correct setup, learn how to drive it and make it hook, it can certainly happen.

As mentioned above, you may not agree with all that has been said but there is good advice on here if you choose to listen sometimes. But it all works together for the good if you get in touch with those that have done it.

You don't need or even want to spray a double shot of anything on these cars and stock shortblocks or it will not last long. Done properly it will do well. Mine is proof of that.

The configuration is slightly different now and I made initial passes late last fall with that. That is when it went 12.94 on the motor on larger 27" drag tires. It still needs retuned and tweaked. Hopefully we'll see what happens this season.

Steve
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"There's a bad, built NA 4.6L COMING Spring-Summer 2018"

Elite member of the Halfshaft snapping, Auburn eating, Tranny crunching, Piston Melting, Tire lifting, 500+ lb ft Torque Club.

Cougar ET-Stock 4.6 shortblock/Stock PI headswap Bullitt NA 12.94 @ 105+
Nitrous 11.75 @ 114 MPH

2008 Ford Powerstroke 6.4 TT F250 4X4 Supercrew: 12.82 @ 105 MPH

"IN MEMORY OF MY FRIENDS JOEL BENDER 1979-2006", JOHNNY LANGTON 1975-2011, and MICHAEL VIVERETTE 1953-2013"

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Originally Posted by 1MTNCAT View Post
The car is a stock cast iron 96 shortblock (Not Aluminum), PI conversion with a Bullitt Intake and TB. It has bolt ons, underdrive pulleys, 90 MM Maf, 30# injectors, Adjustable FPR and the like with only JBA Shortie headers. It has a stall converter, Jmodded stock 4R70 and 4.30 gears in an alumuminum Mark VIII housing. OF course it also has a good tune with the mods.

I run a ZEX Dry kit on the spray with a 125 shot. The engine and drivetrain is nothing special.

I have custom made Subframe connectors and DS loops under the car along with Adjustable air bags in the rear springs and aftermarket rear shocks.

The car in that configuration has gone a best of 13.1 @ 104 MPH and 11.89 @ 113+ on the spray and that is with full interior, all belts etc, with only the spare and jack removed. I run on front skinnies on stock aluminum spares and stock rear wheels with either a 26" tire normally on the motor and 28" drag tires on the Nitrous runs. The car in that configuration was weighed on two seperate occasions with driver at right around 3750-3800 lbs.

So if you know what you are doing, have the correct setup, learn how to drive it and make it hook, it can certainly happen.

As mentioned above, you may not agree with all that has been said but there is good advice on here if you choose to listen sometimes. But it all works together for the good if you get in touch with those that have done it.

You don't need or even want to spray a double shot of anything on these cars and stock shortblocks or it will not last long. Done properly it will do well. Mine is proof of that.

The configuration is slightly different now and I made initial passes late last fall with that. That is when it went 12.94 on the motor on larger 27" drag tires. It still needs retuned and tweaked. Hopefully we'll see what happens this season.
^^^^ There is a good lesson right there. Pay attention to the people who have done it, not the people that talk (or type) or argue about little sh*t more than actually get their hands dirty!

Yet another example of experience > theory.

~Rick

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NetKeym is offline  
post #30 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-28-2012, 12:39 PM
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Location: Hedgesville, WV
Age: 61
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Originally Posted by NetKeym View Post
^^^^ There is a good lesson right there. Pay attention to the people who have done it, not the people that talk (or type) or argue about little sh*t more than actually get their hands dirty!

Yet another example of experience > theory.
Too many times there is too much misinformation and theory on here as you've suggested. You just need someone with the time, attention and skills to make it happen.

My goal is to have a built aluminum block with ported heads and a nice set of aftermarket cams, kooks headers and such down the road to see what I can get out of that combination. With and without the same amount of spray.

We'll save that for another day.

First I need to see what I can get out of the current set up with the stage 1 cams that are now in it with the still stock PI heads! I have also put a fuel cell in the car, Big pump, battery mounted in the trunk, Rear firewall for safety, safety shut off, manual rack and removed the AC for now. Exhaust is the same except going from 2 1/2" to X-Pipe and 3" duals back and out the side, front of the rear tires.

As I said, it needs retuned for the current set up to get the most out of it. I'm hoping eventually for 12.6's on motor and 11.5's on the spray with the current set up in optimum conditions.

Steve
1996 Cougar XR7 Special Edition (Street & Strip)
"There's a bad, built NA 4.6L COMING Spring-Summer 2018"

Elite member of the Halfshaft snapping, Auburn eating, Tranny crunching, Piston Melting, Tire lifting, 500+ lb ft Torque Club.

Cougar ET-Stock 4.6 shortblock/Stock PI headswap Bullitt NA 12.94 @ 105+
Nitrous 11.75 @ 114 MPH

2008 Ford Powerstroke 6.4 TT F250 4X4 Supercrew: 12.82 @ 105 MPH

"IN MEMORY OF MY FRIENDS JOEL BENDER 1979-2006", JOHNNY LANGTON 1975-2011, and MICHAEL VIVERETTE 1953-2013"
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