Does Mason Dixon Dragway Run Downhill? - TCCoA Forums
 
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-23-2013, 06:23 PM Thread Starter
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Does Mason Dixon Dragway Run Downhill?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderChecken View Post
That track up there looks like its down hill then up hill .
Well its slightly up hill, flat at the stripe, then a downhill dip and back up on the shutdown area.

Thats why the Carolina cars run a few tenths slower up here than at Fayetteville. That means that I need to get my car to Fayettville.

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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-23-2013, 06:46 PM
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Thanks so much everyone. I put a lot of time into making that video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MTNCAT View Post
Well its slightly up hill, flat at the stripe, then a downhill dip and back up on the shutdown area.

Thats why the Carolina cars run a few tenths slower up here than at Fayetteville. That means that I need to get my car to Fayettville.
Yea, you need to bring your car to Fayetteville this fall. It would really help your times running at 165'. The closest thing to Mason Dixon here is zMax at 630'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderChecken View Post
Another fine production That track up there looks like its down hill then up hill.

...
Thanks Darren.

... about Mason Dixon:

It is downhill then up at the end but you will run a few tenths slower at MD then at Fayetteville because the track is at a higher elevation. I've looked extensively into this using Google earth and my own GPS.

Fayetteville is at 165' elevation.

According to Google Earth: Mason Dixon starts at 545 feet elevation at the light tree then drops to 530 feet at a track cross over road located at about the 1/8th mile mark. (Minus 15 feet) the track then rises to 539 feet at the finish - plus 9 feet in the second 1/8th mile but still 6 feet below the start line, the run out continues to rise to 565 feet at the turn out.

That's a 1.3° downward angle over the first 660' (1/8th mile) and a .5° rise from the eighth mile to the finish line. Followed by a .8° rise from the finish line to the turn out in the 1,870' of track run out.

Steve may call BS on this but even if these numbers aren't *exactly right there's no doubt in my mind that this track runs down hill. I will check these numbers again with my own GPS when I'm there in July.

Mason Dixon looks like this:



Here's the best picture of the elevation change at Mason Dixon that I have. Unlike other tracks the time signs are not at the end but located at the 1/8th mile mark.


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Last edited by Trunk Monkey; 01-23-2013 at 10:43 PM.
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-23-2013, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk Monkey View Post
I will check these numbers again with my own GPS when I'm there in July.
LOL, unless you have a commercial differential GPS rig, I wouldn't put a lot of faith in those numbers, Google Earth included.

http://weather.gladstonefamily.net/gps_elevation.html
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-23-2013, 09:17 PM
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All right. I'll give you that JP. I know that your background is in this sort of thing.

I'll take a different approach to my analysis.

How about the track's published elevation at their website of 550' and a USGS map of the area?

Here's the USGS map showing two 20' contour intervals running across the track. Based on this:

The minimum elevation change from start to finish of that track is 5 feet (a quarter of the distance of the contour intervals).
The maximum elevation change is 10 feet (half the distance of the contour intervals); which is actually 4 MORE feet of drop - start to finish - than my Google Earth estimate above.

I'll take a ± 5' deviation from my Google Earth estimate.


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Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto

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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-23-2013, 09:37 PM
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Not denying any claim of grade of the track, just pointing out the futility of trying to quantify it with GPS.

Besides, any given track day, the car sees much greater elevation changes due to variable atmospheric conditions.

Great video BTW.
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-23-2013, 09:42 PM
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Ah, Ok. I wasn't aware that consumer grade GPS units were that inacurate in their elevation measurements.

I also thought about simply laying a level on the track and seeing which way the bubble pointed. LOL

Yea, no doubt about atmospheric variables.

Thanks JP. I put a lot of time into making that video.

Mods? Yea, I got mods ...
Air silencer delete, warp drive, dilithium crystals, flux capacitor, Slingshot Rubber band power adder, Moonshine & Gas, Leaf Blower Supercharger, Hamster Wheel & Hamster, Energizer Bunny generating 1.21 gigawatts, Mr. Fusion® Home Energy Reactor, hover conversion and a sextant celestial navigation system (The original GPS)
Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-24-2013, 06:28 AM
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What side of the Mason-Dixon line is the track on ? Yankee engineering J/King , Thanks for the info Ron .

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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-24-2013, 06:38 AM
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Well technically the Mason-Dixon line was measured to divide MD from PA and DE after they figured out what to do about Philly... "North" and "South" were divided (officially) by 36°30′ N.

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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-24-2013, 07:11 AM
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From alot of guys I talk to Mir is about the fastest track around for what ever reason they say super mineshaft air and it dead hooks

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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-24-2013, 07:33 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertP View Post
From alot of guys I talk to Mir is about the fastest track around for what ever reason they say super mineshaft air and it dead hooks
Not true Robert. MIR, Cecil and VMP are equally fast in the right conditions. Englishtown is the same. I've been on it a couple different times too. I've run all of them at different times over the years. Cecil and MIR seem to hook the best however.

They turn out numbers just like Fayetteville.

As for Mason Dixon, my point was you ARE running up hill from the 1/8th to the stripe (Approx 10ft elevation-top end pull) which is within 5 feet of the starting line elevation. Call it downhill if you like.

I've always run best numbers and MPH at other tracks by 2-2.5 tenths at Cecil, MIR, etc in similar good conditions. I had got the bugs out of the car last spring when I ran my numbers at Mason Dixon. Never got a chance to get it at any other track in good conditions where I could run numbers. It is what it is lol!!!!

I know this also, a couple of the boys that ran at SB11 Last summer picked up 4.25-4.5 10's at Fayettville in November. Different track and conditions but you get the point.

Steve
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"IN MEMORY OF MY FRIENDS JOEL BENDER 1979-2006", JOHNNY LANGTON 1975-2011, and MICHAEL VIVERETTE 1953-2013"

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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-24-2013, 03:32 PM
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-25-2013, 10:17 AM
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Fayetteville is not a fast track, despite it's elevation. Maybe it's a rough track surface, maybe cause it's uphill to the 1/8th (need to put a level on that track!)

I ran .12 faster at Rockingham than I did at Fayetteville with the same 60' time, same temps. This was back in 2003, ran [email protected] at Fayetteville, and [email protected] at the Rock. My car is intercooled and not temp sensitive to small weather changes.

In the heat, there is no contest, Fayetteville is much slower than the Rock, which doesn't seem to be affected by heat as much.

I only ran at MIR once in my old Talon, it was hot and humid so I ran slow. But people have said MIR and the Rock are comparable. The fact that the Rock doesn't hook anymore is beside the point.

The point is Fayetteville is "average" at best, unless you run in the mine shaft air in the winter, when all other tracks are closed.

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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-25-2013, 10:59 AM
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I'll say this much about consumer GPS's elevation accuracy...

While we were in Miami sitting still in a parking lot last week, the bosses' Garmin said the elevation was -16' all the way to +2' above sea level. I watched it the whole time we were sitting there waiting and the number kept changing the whole time.

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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-25-2013, 11:26 AM
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Yea, I'll see that in Fla. too. When I'm driving the keys my GARMIN often drop to negative elevation numbers. But when you're in New Orleans and you see that you know it's right! lol

Still, my GARMIN has shown 165' at Faytteville which is correct.

I was pretty impressed with Google Earth in my examination of Mason Dixon above compared to the USGS map. I'd say it's pretty accurate.

Mods? Yea, I got mods ...
Air silencer delete, warp drive, dilithium crystals, flux capacitor, Slingshot Rubber band power adder, Moonshine & Gas, Leaf Blower Supercharger, Hamster Wheel & Hamster, Energizer Bunny generating 1.21 gigawatts, Mr. Fusion® Home Energy Reactor, hover conversion and a sextant celestial navigation system (The original GPS)
Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-27-2013, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk Monkey View Post

I was pretty impressed with Google Earth in my examination of Mason Dixon above compared to the USGS map. I'd say it's pretty accurate.
Did you look at Cecil County? I first did a couple of years ago. Downhill all the way, just like the pictures show.

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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-27-2013, 07:12 PM
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LOL

No wonder Steve likes to run there.

No I haven't done an analysis of Cecil and, until you mentioned it, I wasn't aware that that track did run downhill. A quick Google search did bring up lots of references to it running downhill though.

Mods? Yea, I got mods ...
Air silencer delete, warp drive, dilithium crystals, flux capacitor, Slingshot Rubber band power adder, Moonshine & Gas, Leaf Blower Supercharger, Hamster Wheel & Hamster, Energizer Bunny generating 1.21 gigawatts, Mr. Fusion® Home Energy Reactor, hover conversion and a sextant celestial navigation system (The original GPS)
Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto
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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-28-2013, 06:35 AM Thread Starter
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Actually

Like you running at MD compared to Fayettville/Rockingham TM LOL.

It would be interesting to see what ALL the tracks look like elevation wise and values. Cecil, MIR, Fayettville, Rockingham, Englishtown Etc.

Maybe useful information.

Steve
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Cougar ET-Stock 4.6 shortblock/Stock PI headswap Bullitt NA 12.94 @ 105+
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2008 Ford Powerstroke 6.4 TT F250 4X4 Supercrew: 12.82 @ 105 MPH

"IN MEMORY OF MY FRIENDS JOEL BENDER 1979-2006", JOHNNY LANGTON 1975-2011, and MICHAEL VIVERETTE 1953-2013"

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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-28-2013, 07:00 AM
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It's not that hard to do... Here, I'll list all the tracks that we use all in one place.

165' - Fayetteville, NC
178' - Old Bridge Township Raceway Park - Englishtown, NJ
318' - Cecil*
430' - Rockingham, NC
550' - Mason Dixon**
630' - zMax - Concord, NC

* 8' down hill grade
** 5' down hill grade


Mods? Yea, I got mods ...
Air silencer delete, warp drive, dilithium crystals, flux capacitor, Slingshot Rubber band power adder, Moonshine & Gas, Leaf Blower Supercharger, Hamster Wheel & Hamster, Energizer Bunny generating 1.21 gigawatts, Mr. Fusion® Home Energy Reactor, hover conversion and a sextant celestial navigation system (The original GPS)
Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto

Last edited by Trunk Monkey; 01-28-2013 at 07:08 AM.
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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-28-2013, 10:52 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk Monkey View Post
It's not that hard to do... Here, I'll list all the tracks that we use all in one place.

165' - Fayetteville, NC
178' - Old Bridge Township Raceway Park - Englishtown, NJ
318' - Cecil*
430' - Rockingham, NC
550' - Mason Dixon**
630' - zMax - Concord, NC

* 8' down hill grade
** 5' down hill grade

No I meant incrementallly like Mason Dixon to check grade. Oh, and you forgot MIR & VMP.

It still all comes back to all of us running slower at Mason Dixon than anywhere else.

Steve
1996 Cougar XR7 Special Edition (Street & Strip)
"There's a bad, built NA 4.6L COMING Spring-Summer 2018"

Elite member of the Halfshaft snapping, Auburn eating, Tranny crunching, Piston Melting, Tire lifting, 500+ lb ft Torque Club.

Cougar ET-Stock 4.6 shortblock/Stock PI headswap Bullitt NA 12.94 @ 105+
Nitrous 11.75 @ 114 MPH

2008 Ford Powerstroke 6.4 TT F250 4X4 Supercrew: 12.82 @ 105 MPH

"IN MEMORY OF MY FRIENDS JOEL BENDER 1979-2006", JOHNNY LANGTON 1975-2011, and MICHAEL VIVERETTE 1953-2013"
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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-28-2013, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MTNCAT View Post
No I meant incrementallly like Mason Dixon to check grade. Oh, and you forgot MIR & VMP.

It still all comes back to all of us running slower at Mason Dixon than anywhere else.
That's to much work to look at each of them incrementally. I did look at Cecil and came up with 8' as a pretty close estimate of that track's drop in elevation. I'd say the rest of them are very flat with little to no change in elevation. I just looked at the two tracks that were known to run downhill enough for it to be mentioned not only by us but by other racers as well.

You can look up MIR and VMP and let me know what they are - I never run those tracks.

Yes, we run slower at Mason Dixon but I attribute that to running in the heat of summer. Granted - as Driller said - "... any given track day, the cars see much greater elevation changes due to variable atmospheric conditions." However, running down hill doesn't hurt any either...

Looking at my own times; my average run time at Mason Dixon, with an average DA of 2079', is off of my averages for all runs at all tracks by only .359 of a second and 2.577 MPH. - Which isn't that much slower all things considered ...

Mods? Yea, I got mods ...
Air silencer delete, warp drive, dilithium crystals, flux capacitor, Slingshot Rubber band power adder, Moonshine & Gas, Leaf Blower Supercharger, Hamster Wheel & Hamster, Energizer Bunny generating 1.21 gigawatts, Mr. Fusion® Home Energy Reactor, hover conversion and a sextant celestial navigation system (The original GPS)
Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto

Last edited by Trunk Monkey; 01-29-2013 at 06:10 AM.
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