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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-12-2007, 05:59 PM Thread Starter
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SC for road race/twisties?

Better Roadrace Application

centerfugal (vortech) vs twin screw (whipple)

DOHC motor, probly manual 6 speed trans.

Discuss.

-Joel

Previous MN12s:
'95 Thunderbird 4.6L V8 - Performance White
Bought 01/12/08 w/ 33,000 original mi. Big plans, little execution. Sold as a fallen victim to life's happenings.
'95 Thunderbird 4.6L V8 - Performance White
Leaky shifter @ 137,441; what a good ride. Gone to the crusher, but not forgotten... moth and rust doth corrupt.

'13 Mustang GT Premium 5.0L V8, Auto, Brembo, Black - Daily Dark Horse
'11 Edge SEL AWD 3.5L V6, Loaded, Black - For the Misses
'98 F-150 XLT RegCab 8'Bed, 4.6L V8 4x4 ORP Oxford White - Work Truck

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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-12-2007, 06:33 PM
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Wwhipple all the way. The vortech won't help you much out of the corners.

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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-12-2007, 07:15 PM
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The biggest thing you need with a supercharged road racer is an intercooling system with gargantuan capacity. Assuming you are interested in making more than one or two laps... With either type of supercharger, heat soak is your enemy.

It's only funny until someone gets hurt.
Then it's freaking hilarious.


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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-12-2007, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
Wwhipple all the way. The vortech won't help you much out of the corners.
Ohhh, I don't know. If it's purely for a road racing application, then he's never really going to be dipping below 3,000RPM or so anyway. Pullied right, that's right about where an S-Trim (or equivalent) is going to start coming on pretty hard.

...and it's a much cheaper set up than any of the PD blowers on the market.

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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-12-2007, 09:44 PM Thread Starter
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There will be a very large intercooling system. Period. Just looking for the supercharger options.

I plan on spending a lot of money on this car in the long run. Right now I am deciding on the end project, so I can start small in that direction now.

-Joel

Previous MN12s:
'95 Thunderbird 4.6L V8 - Performance White
Bought 01/12/08 w/ 33,000 original mi. Big plans, little execution. Sold as a fallen victim to life's happenings.
'95 Thunderbird 4.6L V8 - Performance White
Leaky shifter @ 137,441; what a good ride. Gone to the crusher, but not forgotten... moth and rust doth corrupt.

'13 Mustang GT Premium 5.0L V8, Auto, Brembo, Black - Daily Dark Horse
'11 Edge SEL AWD 3.5L V6, Loaded, Black - For the Misses
'98 F-150 XLT RegCab 8'Bed, 4.6L V8 4x4 ORP Oxford White - Work Truck

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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-12-2007, 11:55 PM
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I agree with the intercooler comment. However he did say he is already using a 4.6L DOHC, not PI-- completely different.

I'd agree that it's time for a whipple or other roots-type blower, but my solution to the IC problem would be an oversized FMIC, with a puller fan behind it, a set of water sprayers mounted in front (rigged to a switch- misters like you would use for hydroponic gardening) if I were going to use a supercharged MN12 for something like Mulholland Highway, Stunt Road, Glendora Mountain Rd., Rim of the World or the Red Road.

Given that this car is going to be subjected to VERY high levels of lateral load, you will want to consider 275+ series tyres, and brace both the front and rear shock towers. This will also call for larger sway bars, though personally I feel that the SC sways are more adequate than the addco bars, having used both in an LX. I assume you also have braking under control, with oversized f/r disc brakes and some kind of means of preventing brake fade, since you do intend this car to be for the twisties. That said, you will also need the aluminum MK VIII suspension bits, and a cobra 8.8, due to the aluminum housing and carbon fiber clutches to handle the power you'll be delivering... so that lightens the car overall in the rear, and thus you need to move forward and lighten the car's nose. Do this either by holesawing the front bumper bar (the big heavy metal bit beneath all the plastic and foam) or relocating the battery to the trunk-- consider lighter weight front suspension components as well... so far as gearing is concerned I would go no higher than 3.73, with a recommendation for 3.27 or 3.55. Given that many of southern CA's faster canyons/mountains can get very fast at times, I would not want to go any higher than 4th gear since you will be using a 6-spd (if I read right).

tyres are CRITICAL!! As I said before, go as wide as you can with the highest traction rating. AA is preferred, some kind of ultra-high performance tyre. Don't cheap out! If necessary, add flaring to the fenders to accomodate 300+ series f/r tires. This will increase steering effort immensely, so at this point I would strongly reccomend installing a LARGER power steering cooler, as well as a supplementary oil cooler.

I would also run a relatively low amount of boost (around 13psi) so that it builds and maxes out quickly (a-la-supercoupe, delivering a TON of torque at 2000rpm) to deliver the low end torque that the DOHC motors characteristically lack.

That's how I'd do it, were I to use that combo.

Damnit, now you've got me fantasizing!

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Custom Nascar-Inspired Bodykit - 55* Rear Spoiler - J-modded Trans - 80mm MAF - One-Off Diablosport Chipmaster Revolution Chip/Tune W/Toggle - ScanGaugeII Diagnostics & Data Readout - PBR Brakes - Drilled/Slotted Rotors - SC Wheels & Springs - Falken Tires - KYB GR-1 Shocks/Struts - FSTB - RSTB - RTLB - LECB - 60/40 Split Rear - SC Seats - SC Vac/Boost Gauge

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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-13-2007, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobey View Post
The biggest thing you need with a supercharged road racer is an intercooling system with gargantuan capacity. Assuming you are interested in making more than one or two laps... With either type of supercharger, heat soak is your enemy.
Everyone please listen to Tobey.

He is a former road racer and knows what the hell he is talking about!

Jim

1995 Thunderbird LX: Vortech S-Trim(12psi), Forged PI 4.6, T-45, SCT Tune, Eibach Pro-kit, Magnaflow DI/DO Exhaust, 3.73 TL, and 17" Cobras

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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-13-2007, 09:46 AM Thread Starter
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OK, all good advice, but please lets stay on subject. All I am wanting to do is figure out which SC... centerfugal or twin screw.

Ghost... wow. Stay on subject please.

-Joel

Previous MN12s:
'95 Thunderbird 4.6L V8 - Performance White
Bought 01/12/08 w/ 33,000 original mi. Big plans, little execution. Sold as a fallen victim to life's happenings.
'95 Thunderbird 4.6L V8 - Performance White
Leaky shifter @ 137,441; what a good ride. Gone to the crusher, but not forgotten... moth and rust doth corrupt.

'13 Mustang GT Premium 5.0L V8, Auto, Brembo, Black - Daily Dark Horse
'11 Edge SEL AWD 3.5L V6, Loaded, Black - For the Misses
'98 F-150 XLT RegCab 8'Bed, 4.6L V8 4x4 ORP Oxford White - Work Truck

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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-13-2007, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GODSPEED View Post
OK, all good advice, but please lets stay on subject. All I am wanting to do is figure out which SC... centerfugal or twin screw.

Ghost... wow. Stay on subject please.

-Joel
I'll take care of it if it gets out of hand. Let's let people post. Ghost posted some good stuff even though it wasn't in line with your original post. I learned something. If it gets wild, I'll kill it or pare it down. Dat's me job...

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Yet wish you to the devil;
But when a good dog wags his tail,
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-13-2007, 06:17 PM
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BTW Ghost....unless you just migrated here from England, it's spelled "T-I-R-E-S"

......k

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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-14-2007, 01:50 PM
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Shox or shocks?

What type of SC setup will also depend on what type of racing you tend to do?..Size of track?...

In my opinion twin screws are nice compramise as they make great mid and high end power as compared to centrifigals making nice top end and twin helix roots making nice low to mid end power..

Heat soak is inevitable

Going for broke!!!!
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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-14-2007, 08:35 PM
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I would advise you to consider getting a set of "C" style heads which will give you more choices for blower setup, and also offer carbed versions as well.
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-15-2007, 04:10 PM
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Joel, MSN me later. We'll talk about your "Roadrace" car.

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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-15-2007, 05:42 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadboss View Post
I would advise you to consider getting a set of "C" style heads which will give you more choices for blower setup, and also offer carbed versions as well.
Going to C heads is in the plan, for the Whipple.

-Joel

Previous MN12s:
'95 Thunderbird 4.6L V8 - Performance White
Bought 01/12/08 w/ 33,000 original mi. Big plans, little execution. Sold as a fallen victim to life's happenings.
'95 Thunderbird 4.6L V8 - Performance White
Leaky shifter @ 137,441; what a good ride. Gone to the crusher, but not forgotten... moth and rust doth corrupt.

'13 Mustang GT Premium 5.0L V8, Auto, Brembo, Black - Daily Dark Horse
'11 Edge SEL AWD 3.5L V6, Loaded, Black - For the Misses
'98 F-150 XLT RegCab 8'Bed, 4.6L V8 4x4 ORP Oxford White - Work Truck

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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-15-2007, 06:38 PM
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From my experience with the Eaton-SC'd V6, I agree that heat soak is the major enemy. I usually run less OD on the blower when I'm going to be at an open-track event as well. The Whipple style should have a much lower outlet temp than the Roots style, and better torque than a centrifugal unit.

Now that I have a decent sized FMIC in the car, I'm looking forward to seeing how much (if any) it helps the situation. End of next week I have an event to help out at, so we'll see how it goes. Better change my OD down to 10%, it's at 20% right now with the MPIII installed.


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post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-10-2009, 01:41 PM Thread Starter
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Bump...

Would like to discuss this some more. The imaginary car in question will still be a 6 speed with a dohc motor. Either setup (whipple vs. vortech) will have a large intercooler setup, to combat heatsoak. What would the most optiomal blower for road race be?

-Joel

Previous MN12s:
'95 Thunderbird 4.6L V8 - Performance White
Bought 01/12/08 w/ 33,000 original mi. Big plans, little execution. Sold as a fallen victim to life's happenings.
'95 Thunderbird 4.6L V8 - Performance White
Leaky shifter @ 137,441; what a good ride. Gone to the crusher, but not forgotten... moth and rust doth corrupt.

'13 Mustang GT Premium 5.0L V8, Auto, Brembo, Black - Daily Dark Horse
'11 Edge SEL AWD 3.5L V6, Loaded, Black - For the Misses
'98 F-150 XLT RegCab 8'Bed, 4.6L V8 4x4 ORP Oxford White - Work Truck

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post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-10-2009, 02:16 PM
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Bump...

Would like to discuss this some more. The imaginary car in question will still be a 6 speed with a dohc motor. Either setup (whipple vs. vortech) will have a large intercooler setup, to combat heatsoak. What would the most optiomal blower for road race be?

-Joel
Real answer: Turbo
What would I do: Swap in an LSX and stay NA with similar horsepower level in a smaller package

But if you're set on a blower:

Seriously, it depends. My first consideration would be what kind of IC is used. If the Whipple requires an air:water setup, I'd do centrifugal. A large air:air IC weighs less than an air:water setup with enough water to last 40 minutes on the track without it heat soaking.

If both can use air:air, then we need to know more. What kind of boost/horsepower do you want? Are you okay with a peaky power band, or do you need a long, flat torque curve? Each type has strengths and weaknesses.

I'm sure there are plenty of guys running Mustangs on the track with centrifugal blowers, and plenty with PD blowers (whipples might be under-represented). If I were you, I'd go pose this question on a Mustang board and find out what the pluses/minuses of each setup are (actually, if I were you, I'd stay NA, but I'll quit kicking that dead horse now).

It's only funny until someone gets hurt.
Then it's freaking hilarious.


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post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-11-2009, 12:41 PM
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If you can make it fit, this is likely the best supercharger for a RR setup:

http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Produc.../TVS/index.htm

It's available from FRPP as an upgrade for the GT500.

It's only funny until someone gets hurt.
Then it's freaking hilarious.


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post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-11-2009, 12:59 PM Thread Starter
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Tobey, whats you're e-mail? I'd like to pick your brain on all of this stuff if you have the time.

-Joel

Previous MN12s:
'95 Thunderbird 4.6L V8 - Performance White
Bought 01/12/08 w/ 33,000 original mi. Big plans, little execution. Sold as a fallen victim to life's happenings.
'95 Thunderbird 4.6L V8 - Performance White
Leaky shifter @ 137,441; what a good ride. Gone to the crusher, but not forgotten... moth and rust doth corrupt.

'13 Mustang GT Premium 5.0L V8, Auto, Brembo, Black - Daily Dark Horse
'11 Edge SEL AWD 3.5L V6, Loaded, Black - For the Misses
'98 F-150 XLT RegCab 8'Bed, 4.6L V8 4x4 ORP Oxford White - Work Truck

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post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-11-2009, 09:39 PM
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If you can make it fit, this is likely the best supercharger for a RR setup:

http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Produc.../TVS/index.htm

It's available from FRPP as an upgrade for the GT500.
Tork Tech sells a slightly smaller version of this blower as an option in their kit. Personally, I think the smaller 1900 would be the better option. It'll spin up quicker than the 2300 and you'd actually keep it within its efficiency range longer than the larger 2300. As it sits, the TVS1900 is rated at nearly 750hp according to Tork Tech. That would be more than enough horsepower for even the most serious road race cars.

...besides, we don't have anywhere near the firewall, cowl or hood clearance with our MN12 to fit the Ford Racing 2300 under our hood.

~Brian~


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Black on Black & Stroked 'n' Polked!!!

Last edited by Mod Motor Cat; 06-11-2009 at 09:46 PM.
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post #21 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-11-2009, 11:19 PM
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Tobey, whats you're e-mail? I'd like to pick your brain on all of this stuff if you have the time.

-Joel
PM Sent. But a warning: I have no hands-on experience road racing a supercharged car. Ed N is probably the active member who can be the most help on that specifically. But I've read a lot, and have followed other people's experiences with superchargers.

I have road course experience with several NA cars, though.

'72 Pinto with a 9500 rpm, 13:1 compression, dry sump, dual side draft Weber, 220 hp, 2.0L OHC engine.
1st gen RX7, stock drivetrain
1st gen Miata, stock drivetrain
'94 Firebird, stock drivetrain

It's only funny until someone gets hurt.
Then it's freaking hilarious.


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