Fuel System for 400 - 500 RWHP - TCCoA Forums
 
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-02-2012, 12:14 PM Thread Starter
TGJ
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Fuel System for 400 - 500 RWHP

I have a brand new Vortech V-3 S-Trim Supercharger for my TBird and over this winter I am thinking of putting it on the car. My car is making 340 RWHP N/A currently, so it is reasonable to think it will make over 400 with a SC. I am thinking ball park of 420ish. What has me concerned is the fuel system. I have 60lb/hr injectors and a SCT 2600 BA MAF. What I do not have is the fuel pump setup and am wondering what you guys that are making that kind of power are using for your fuel pump(s)? What is the fuel system up to the stock rails? Should I consider some aftermarket rails?

R.I.P. Johnny Langton (1975 - 2011)

1996 Thunderbird 5.0L 2V-4R70W
12.64 @ 107 MPH -> DA 3315 Ft above Sea level
12.49 @ 109 -> DA 2967 Ft above Sea level
2005 Mustang GT 4.6L 3V-TR3650 - SOLD
13.39 @ 102 MPH -> DA 3617 Ft above Sea level
2011 Mustang GT 5.0L 4V-6R80 - Bolt-ons
12.32 @ 115 MPH -> DA 2980 Ft above Sea level
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-02-2012, 03:50 PM
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Well to do this right, I'd go with fore rails and regulator run dual 255 LPh pumps, run a 6 gauge to the trunk, so u have full power to the pumps with a relay, run stock line adapters to hook to the rails and return line, I'm a fore dealer can get u everthing needed, I'm running dual 405 in mine on e85 with new lines, and fore filter, the dual 255 with stock lines is good for about 575-600 rwhp in a tbird, I'd also reccomend my methanol injection kit, to help with air charge temps and fight spark knock, basically just depends how u wanna do the fuel setup, we can run new lines all in how much u wanna spend

Robert

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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-05-2012, 02:28 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertP View Post
Well to do this right, I'd go with fore rails and regulator run dual 255 LPh pumps, run a 6 gauge to the trunk, so u have full power to the pumps with a relay, run stock line adapters to hook to the rails and return line, I'm a fore dealer can get u everthing needed, I'm running dual 405 in mine on e85 with new lines, and fore filter, the dual 255 with stock lines is good for about 575-600 rwhp in a tbird, I'd also reccomend my methanol injection kit, to help with air charge temps and fight spark knock, basically just depends how u wanna do the fuel setup, we can run new lines all in how much u wanna spend

Robert
You have my interest in the fuel system. I am curious to know the prices of the parts I need. Probably better to call or PM.

Meth and Nitrous are two things I want to stay away from. I know they are separate unrelated systems. The track I go to is extremely picky on Meth and Nitrous systems and especially the Meth systems. The inspections on these kits is so intense that very few cars actually get to run with them installed and active. I do not want that headache.

Just so people understand what my track is like. My car meets all of the NHRA specs, but is close on the lug nuts. So close that sometimes I am allowed to run and others I am not as it all depends on the tech inspecting the car. It is the only reason that I am collecting parts to do the Mustang 4.5 bolt pattern conversion. I did not get a chance to run at all this year because of that.

R.I.P. Johnny Langton (1975 - 2011)

1996 Thunderbird 5.0L 2V-4R70W
12.64 @ 107 MPH -> DA 3315 Ft above Sea level
12.49 @ 109 -> DA 2967 Ft above Sea level
2005 Mustang GT 4.6L 3V-TR3650 - SOLD
13.39 @ 102 MPH -> DA 3617 Ft above Sea level
2011 Mustang GT 5.0L 4V-6R80 - Bolt-ons
12.32 @ 115 MPH -> DA 2980 Ft above Sea level
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-07-2012, 12:05 AM
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I still think the restriction is in the teeny tiny lines coming out of our stock fuel hats----and I intend to attempt to prove my point with some mods that are up and coming....
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-07-2012, 09:26 AM
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That's true, GM, but I still think 4" is a bit much.

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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-07-2012, 10:40 AM
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That's true, GM, but I still think 4" is a bit much.

RwP
4" what?




Im honestly surprised the stock lines can keep up with as much power as Rob was pushing through them.(or flow)

Thats why I went 1/2" both return and send on my motor lines.
3/8 for just the nitrous system

Way overkill for the power i will be making, but it gives me room to grow as well.

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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-07-2012, 11:51 AM
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That's true, GM, but I still think 4" is a bit much.

RwP
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4" what?
4" fuel lines

I was yanking GM's leg a bit there.

RwP
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-07-2012, 11:52 AM
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4" fuel lines

I was yanking GM's leg a bit there.

RwP
ahh.....hell, i'm not even sure if that will be enough either?

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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-07-2012, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _95badbird View Post
Im honestly surprised the stock lines can keep up with as much power as Rob was pushing through them.(or flow)
see that's the thing...they weren't keeping up---not with acceptable pressure drop. Rob had to go to dual fuel pumps to get the flow where it needed to be AND not lose so much pressure that it affected the pressure at the rails.

To illustrate what I'm saying:

The BSFC of a supercharged engine can be approximated at 0.6 lb/(HP*hr).

255L of fuel has a mass of approx: 255L * 1gal/3.79L * 6.18 lb/gal= 415.8 lbs

415.8lb/hr /[0.6 lb/(HP*hr)]= 693 HP

Thats how much a single 255lph pump can support at the crank (BHP). Now of course it has to push fuel all the way to the front and up past the fuel filter, so even taking this into account, I'd say a 255lph can support 650BHP---again, this is IF you have no losses due to pressure drops along the way.

A single 405lph will support ~ 1100 BHP. DUAL 405s could support ~2200HP. To need to go that overboard just to get sub-1000 HP levels is an indication of obstruction somewhere down the line.

Just my 2cents, but what do I know, my car doesn't even run. LOL
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-07-2012, 04:30 PM
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see that's the thing...they weren't keeping up---not with acceptable pressure drop. Rob had to go to dual fuel pumps to get the flow where it needed to be AND not lose so much pressure that it affected the pressure at the rails.

To illustrate what I'm saying:

The BSFC of a supercharged engine can be approximated at 0.6 lb/(HP*hr).

255L of fuel has a mass of approx: 255L * 1gal/3.79L * 6.18 lb/gal= 415.8 lbs

415.8lb/hr /[0.6 lb/(HP*hr)]= 693 HP

Thats how much a single 255lph pump can support at the crank (BHP). Now of course it has to push fuel all the way to the front and up past the fuel filter, so even taking this into account, I'd say a 255lph can support 650BHP---again, this is IF you have no losses due to pressure drops along the way.

A single 405lph will support ~ 1100 BHP. DUAL 405s could support ~2200HP. To need to go that overboard just to get sub-1000 HP levels is an indication of obstruction somewhere down the line.

Just my 2cents, but what do I know, my car doesn't even run. LOL
math is where its at.......
I have used this site for desinging my system.... http://www.centuryperformance.com/forum/forum.php

but its geard more towards carb settups.....

well, the site(link) i had saved is gone.......it doesn't go to the page where it shows desings and calculates flow......hmmm, i'll see if i can find it again.

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post #11 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-07-2012, 10:05 PM
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meh, internet calculators are for jocks!

Although according to the FRPP website, gasoline weighs 6.009 lb/gal @ 65F. Doesn't change figures too much. If i go by the FRPP PDF file,

one 255 with no pressure drops will support

255/3.785*6.009/.55 = 736 BHP. That's even more than my conservative figure.

A 405lph pump will support 1169 BHP, and dual 405s obviously 2338 BHP.


The key to doing these kinds of calculations just depends on using the correct Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC) figure, which dictates how much mass of fuel (lbs) is required to produce just one HP for one hour. That is why the units are lb/(hp*hr).

According to the FRPP website:

a typical N/A car has a BSFC of 0.5. IOW it needs 0.5 lbs of fuel mass to produce one hp for one continuous hour.
A typical centrifugal powered car has a BSFC of 0.55. IOW it needs 0.55 lbs of fuel mass to produce one hp for one continuous hour.
A typical roots/screw powered car has a BSFC of 0.65. IOW it needs 0.65 lbs of fuel mass to produce one hp for one continuous hour.

Last edited by guitar maestro; 11-07-2012 at 10:17 PM.
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