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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-08-2004, 08:43 AM Thread Starter
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tuebo/supercharger

i know i know it sounds crazy. but me and a buddy are wrapping up a turbo install on his 03' cavalier. if i were to do this, obviously it would be a pain as i think the mn12 engine bay is one of the tightest i have ever seen. i am thinking twins, with a small a/r ratio so it spools fast and cuts lag. they woudl run out of steam on the top, but i want the power in the street driving range. the piping is the biggest concern i see. either i would have to move the battery to the drunk, and put a turbo there and one where the factory air box is then figure out the piping from there. or put the turbos roughly where the converters are and plumb from there. it seems like a nightmare but it would be a hell of a lot of fun, and not too expensive since we can do most of the cuttign and design ourselves. i would love a kenne bell but i dont have 6000$ to spend plus another 2K for a forged block. the other choice is the allen kit but thats 4500$ and the procharger 8,10,12 psi kit for 3200$ but i know the centrifugals dont make power until high in the rpm band. i am just trying to weigh my options here. of course i will need to do all my basic bolt ons as well as upgarde the drivetrain...by the way how much does a new 4r70w cost? well i guess thats it for now. any inpout is appreciated.
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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-08-2004, 09:46 AM
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I think the limiting factor when trying to plumb a turbo setup on a 4.6L MN12 is the stock K member. Its very big and bulky, and it doesn't leave much space to work with. As you stated, it would be a nightmare, but there always has to be someone who comes up with something different. So if you have to money, time, and skill...lets see what you can do
BTW - do you plan on any intercooling if you went with the turbo setup?

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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-08-2004, 10:26 AM Thread Starter
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oh yeah definitely intercooling, which makes the plumbing more of a mess. but i want to e safe. there is room between the radiator and the front bumper area for a thin intertcooler, or it looks like if i used a htinner cooling fan and then put the intercooler in front of the radiator or something that woudl work too. i am just trying to brainstorm right now.
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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-08-2004, 11:59 AM
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My car has a rather thick IC mounted up front and the front bumper is cut, but that is more for airflow than room. The car also has working A/C.
I will have to get some pics to show what was moved and what-not because some other guys were asking how its routed also.
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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-08-2004, 01:36 PM Thread Starter
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cool i am interested to see how it fits
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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-08-2004, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
i would love a kenne bell but i dont have 6000$ to spend plus another 2K for a forged block. the other choice is the allen kit but thats 4500$ and the procharger 8,10,12 psi kit for 3200$
1) How much are you looking to spend on this project (Total)?

2) Do you plan on upgrading the Pistons, Rods and hardware?

3) What exhaust manifold(s) do you plan to use with your TT setup?







This is what it looks like after I cut a notch out of the lower part of the bumper.

I think you will find that fabracating a custom TT setup in an MN12 would be more expensive then a pre-made SC kit but go for what you know but be sure to get back to us with dyno numbers and pics.

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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-09-2004, 07:42 AM Thread Starter
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well hte components themselves for the turbo arent too expensive. ie blow off valve, waste gates, turbos themselves etc. the expensive part normally is having someone bend and make the manifolds and all the plumbing. luckily i can draw up the manifolds and can get them made at cost by some friends(hopefully) as well as the piping. then of course an aftermarket chip, injectors. i am still throwing ideas around so this may not happen. if it becomes more expensive than a procharger/ 6 psi KB then i will mroe than likely not go this route. just have to see. if i can keep the sytem down to 3-4K then i may go for it. a DSS racing forged shortblock will also be in the plans of course if i do get he system up and running. on the stock block i would go no more than 8 psi or so, maybe less. i wrote a program in c++ for one of my power classes that calculate horsepower based on inlet pressure, compression ratio, and displacement. works pretty well so i can ballparkk numbers pretty acuarately. think this would be a fun project, just have to do more research and what not.
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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-09-2004, 04:40 PM
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the HARDEST part will be making the turbo headers and getting them to fit/work in tight confines along side the 4.6L. The nice thing about the 4.6L is that there is more room between the front accesory belt and the Radiator than on a 3.8L car. I managed to fit a Small T04-B turbo upfront when I was playing around with the Idea of a Turbo on my 3.8L, But I went with a Vortech instead just for ease of installation.

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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-09-2004, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
centrifugals dont make power until high in the rpm band.
3.73 and a 3500 stall verter will take care of your low band, combine that with a vortech, and you are in for a hell of a ride.

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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-10-2004, 08:04 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ashish


3.73 and a 3500 stall verter will take care of your low band, combine that with a vortech, and you are in for a hell of a ride.
i agree whole heartedly. that is why i wanted to ask the experts for their input. i would like to do turbo for the obvious power, but also for the challenge and fun of it. plus it would be a slick setup. but if the cost outwiegh the gains then believe me a procharger/vortec will go on instead.

and yes the turbo headers will be the hardest part because it is so tight. i am debating twins vs. single right now. both have benefits but for fitment it may be easier to have the headers meet under the car and run to where the battery or airbox are located to feed the single turbo, then to the intercooler etc... or for twins put the turbos roughly where the converters are, or where the airbox and battery are. either way it will be a hell of a plumbing mess. we will see. i am only planning now. i still have to look into a new 4r70w trans ( probably from a stang ) and maybe an engine ( explorer/stang ) before i go to far. my drivetrain has 115000 miles on it, i am not sure it will hold or not. any advice? thanks for the input so far everyone.
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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-10-2004, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ashish
...3.73 and a 3500 stall verter will take care of your low band....
Ain't that the truth. My car currently has 3:55's and a near stock stall speed convertor and the car is absolutly a pig off the line. When ever I get some money saved up and take care of a few other things, some 4:10's with a 3000-3500 stall TC are going in.
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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-10-2004, 10:07 PM
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my drivetrain has 115000 miles on it, i am not sure it will hold or not.
I have 120K on mine right now running strong. do the J-mod and most importantly put in a tranny cooler.

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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-11-2004, 07:50 AM Thread Starter
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i am leaning that way. is it better to just get a stang trans from greenleaf? i am reading up on the j mod now. i am thinking on a pi stallion converter as well along with a trak lok and 3.73's. i figure the drivetrain needs beefing up as well or it is no good to make power.
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-17-2004, 03:46 AM
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I got my 98 mark tranny from greenleaf for about 800 shipped to my door. It also came with the wiring, all sensors, and the torque converter 2400-2600rpm stall.
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-20-2004, 11:59 PM
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if you do go turbo..go single..most people that have TT setups..usually end up later going with a bigger single turbo..less moving parts..simple
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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-21-2004, 01:26 AM
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Originally posted by Andrew-L
if you do go turbo..go single..most people that have TT setups..usually end up later going with a bigger single turbo..less moving parts..simple
Such as who? People with TT's from the factory? Or people who do custom TT setups? I don't see less moving parts being more of an advantage so maybe you could elaborate on that more too...? Anyone can build an efficient single turbo. Anyone can also build an efficient twin turbo. It's all about specing and what kind of performance you're looking for.
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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-21-2004, 11:16 AM Thread Starter
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well twins is obviously more expensive, 2 turbos, 2 wastegates, more expensve intercooler. plus i have seen a myriad of 1500 hp mustangs with singles. supras r single. etc. twins may be more efficient when approached thermodynamically, but in life a huge single more than gets the job done. it is easier to plumb twins for a v8 i htink, but cost more. right now i am looking at a couple T4-OE whatever garrets, .48 a/r on the turbine side to spoo up fast. i am thinking on the 02' explorer swap. how much psi could that block take. i was out last night and saw a 460 rwhp stang with a stock block, just a KB. drool.
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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-21-2004, 12:58 PM
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I'm looking at a couple of t-3 garret's myself. And it'd actually be cheaper than any single turbo setup because t-3's can be had for 100 a piece at the local junkyards. I don't expect the total plumbing and turbo cost to go above 2500. I like the idea of two turbos spooling up fast rather than having a 1000hp motor that only sees it's peak at 5,500rpm. I know not all single turbo's are like that, but you get the idea I think. If it were me turboing a stock 4.6 block I wouldn't go beyond 9psi just to play it safe. It's never fun blowing something.

Early supras were single, later models are twin, although most people upgrade to one big turbo on the supra because the twin inline isn't best for high hp applications.

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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-22-2004, 07:35 PM Thread Starter
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what is the a/r ratio on the t-3 garrets you are talking about. the price i found on the new garrets was 549$ each, which isnt bad, but if i can dig some up in a junkyard and rebuild them for much less, that saves tons of money. i am building this kit for the street, and for stock mn12's. me and a friend have done a race setup for his 03' cavalier and are getting started on mine with research. we may try to market our kits for sale, but have to see if there's a market. anyone interested? anyway, check out the dsm ( mitsubishi ) intercoolers off the eclipses, they are side mounted and may be perfect for our cars since they are small, for twins you can have one for each side of the engine. i have a couple rough sketches of my turbo plans but whew, the piping is a mess. i want to ry to hide everything under the car or behind the engie. i might be able to if i get creative enough, the intercooler/s is the hard part. is it possible to swap to a center inlet throttle body. i have seen some but i htink they are for the 5.0? would make life easier to plumb the system past the intercoolers. this is a real PITA no matter which way you go!
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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-22-2004, 07:41 PM
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Vortech.... Vortech.... Vortech

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post #21 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 97ThunderCat
what is the a/r ratio on the t-3 garrets you are talking about. the price i found on the new garrets was 549$ each, which isnt bad, but if i can dig some up in a junkyard and rebuild them for much less, that saves tons of money. i am building this kit for the street, and for stock mn12's. me and a friend have done a race setup for his 03' cavalier and are getting started on mine with research. we may try to market our kits for sale, but have to see if there's a market. anyone interested? anyway, check out the dsm ( mitsubishi ) intercoolers off the eclipses, they are side mounted and may be perfect for our cars since they are small, for twins you can have one for each side of the engine. i have a couple rough sketches of my turbo plans but whew, the piping is a mess. i want to ry to hide everything under the car or behind the engie. i might be able to if i get creative enough, the intercooler/s is the hard part. is it possible to swap to a center inlet throttle body. i have seen some but i htink they are for the 5.0? would make life easier to plumb the system past the intercoolers. this is a real PITA no matter which way you go!
a/r on t-3 is, I believe, .63

The name of the guy making my intercooler is James Sheren. He's done a couple twin turbo 5.0 sn95 mustangs, as well as a lot of other things. I've got all my routing figured out finally. I think it came to me in a dream because it works really well. Of course, this is for the v6 so clearances are a bit different.

If you're looking for a forward facing throttle body maybe you should consider swapping to the 94-95 intakes and throttle body. You'd need the throttle linkages as well as probably splicing in some wiring harnesses and chopped up some vacuum hoses, but it's doable. The 94-95 intakes don't flow as well as 96+ but you could port them and make them better than they are. Plus, since it's forced induction, it wouldn't be too bad.

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post #22 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 06:19 AM Thread Starter
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i will look into the throttle body. how much is he hittign you for on the intercooler. my ideal set up would be an inlet on eachside for both turbos, then an outlet on the top to feed a 95 intake or on the passenger side to feed the 96-97 TB. yeah the 4.6 bay is way tight. i am getting real creative with it, lol.
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post #23 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 04:56 PM
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He told me about $825 for a dyal inlet intercooler. The way I figured out to route my turbos, the inlets are at the top of the intercooler, and the oulet is at the bottom passenger side.

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post #24 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-24-2004, 07:11 AM Thread Starter
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i got ya, thats a good setup, i have been considering somehting liek that also. how much difference in performance is there with single vs twins?
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post #25 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-24-2004, 08:01 AM
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Dude, stick to one thread.
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post #26 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2004, 05:38 AM Thread Starter
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hey man not trying to ruffle any feathers. i posted this thred here awhile back because i was looking for advice from knowledgable people. i have heard about your car so any input you have would be great. i responded to the thread in the 4.6 forum, not trying to overpost or anything. i just am looking for the best solution for what i am looking for. right now it looks like i can go with a turbo setup and save alot of money, but we will see. but hey i will keep it in here if it is pissig people off.
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post #27 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2004, 11:26 AM
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how much difference between single and twin turbo...

If they're both done correctly there will be no difference, although with twin turbo, you could get two turbo's with different a/r's so one spools faster than the other and you get two bursts of power when they kick in. But buying two brand new turbo's would be a lot of money as compared to just buying one new turbo.

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post #28 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-25-2004, 02:29 PM Thread Starter
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the exact answer to that is opne i am still working on. with 2 turbos, you can run sequential turbos, one larger than the other, but you would nt plumb eachside with one, they would be in line. the smaller one spools up fast and in turn spools the larger turbo. this allows a car with a smaller engine to spin a huge turbo. however at some point it is a moot moint as the smaller one will inevitably run out of steam. at http://www.turbomustangs.com the explanation is htis; a t-3 is spun by a 2.2L engine, ours is 2 times as big. since more air is being moved you need two to accomodate the increase in airflow. also twins allows each side of the engine to operate independently feedign the turbos. plus in some ways it is easier to plumb since no crossover. however i have seen plenty of single turbo cars make huge power. most supras go from the twin setup to a huge single turbo. i will look more into it to get some better answers.
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post #29 of 29 (permalink) Old 03-26-2004, 05:42 AM Thread Starter
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ok i have a better answer now, did some reading up over night.
turbo's operate using the engines thermal exhaust energy and transform it into mechanical energy through the turbine. the crossover tube connecting the two sides of the engine can have a signifigant heat loss, therefore losing possible power.
at low speeds the boost pressure is under better control. as flow rates increase creating higher boost, each turbo is taking half the workload and allows for much more stability. keeps things from getting out of control.
also twins allows for more control using wastegates( as long as they arent integral ). each gate can be given its own exhaust pipe allowing for a substantial increase in turbine outlet area. this also allows for better heat dissipation through the exhaust. the mass flowrate of hot exhaust is halved to each turbine which also reduces damage and wear as the operating temperature of the turbine is decreased.
nasically we can do a single turbo and make big power. no question. plenty of stangs, supras etc go this route. but twins allows for more control, more power, and durability. twins allow for a more optimal system. but the car needs to move enough air to take advantage, which as we have V8's is not a problem. plus since we are doing it ourselves from junkyard components, we need to be as efficient and safe as possible. plus being able to say, " yeah it's twin turboed" just sounds sexy.
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