Blower with stock '96 70k miles, bottom end? - TCCoA Forums
 
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 07-25-2004, 04:48 PM Thread Starter
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Blower with stock '96 70k miles, bottom end?

The question pretty much lies in the subject. If that won't work, what do I have to do to prepare the engine for something like that? I would like to do a roots blower, so I get the power at lower rpms also. I was thinking if the stock bottom end is not going to hold up the blower, I would go to a stroker kit to 302 with forged everything. What do you guys think?


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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 07-25-2004, 05:11 PM
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 07-25-2004, 05:16 PM Thread Starter
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sorry, won't happen again

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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 07-26-2004, 04:30 PM
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It will hold up well with a good tune. BUT!!!! you are on borrowed time and need to keep that thought firmly in the back of your mind. Not being greedy and a good tune are the keys.

I am currently gathering the needed parts to supercharge a car with 70K miles on the clock. We will have a spare shortblock ready not far from the car just in case.

Some supercharged cars blow.......Others just pick up and move.
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 07-26-2004, 06:30 PM
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It depends on how much boost you are trying for....I have a 6 PSI kit on my car and just put it on...The short block has 78,000 on it...However, everything else in the car has been upgraded....I have been told that 6 psi does not put extra strain on the short block since it can handle the power, but the 9 psi would blow the rods...

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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 07-26-2004, 06:55 PM
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Wolverine27,

"I have been told that 6 psi does not put extra strain on the short block since it can handle the power, but the 9 psi would blow the rods..."

You were told wrong. Keep thinking like that and burry your head in the sand.

The hypereutectic pistons are weak in the 4.6L engine. I have seen two NATURALLY ASPIRATED 4.6L engines with broken ring lands on the pistons. No blower, no turbo...no nitrous!

1 psi of boost is enough to damage the pistons, all you have to do is knock or go lean and you'll walk home. It's as simple as a failing fuel pump when you're at WOT. The fact that you have a roots/hybrid blower means you stress the engine more so than if you used a centrifugal blower.

With a GREAT tune, mild boost levels, low ACT's and good fuel, you should be able to go a long time with a stock 4.6L 2V engine. It won't last as long as a non-supercharged 4.6L, but it will handle most of your heavy foot.

9-psi won't "blow the rods". I run 10 psi of boost on a '00 GT engine and it's been over 3 years now. I don't baby this car and it's a daily driver. It's not the boost that hurts the engine. The elevated cylinder pressures, heat and unwanted knock are what hurt the engine.

Most knock occurs BELOW what a normal human can hear. How lucky do you feel?

Ask around and you'll find that the stock 4.6L rods are good to about 400 HP. Perhaps slightly more with ARP bolts. You really don't want to push it past 400 HP with them or you're asking for trouble.

The only way to be safe is to purchase forged pistons, forged connecting rods, ARP hardware, and the billet oil pump gears. You can use the stock crankshaft for 99% of all AED applications.

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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 07-26-2004, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by A-Train
The only way to be safe is to purchase forged pistons, forged connecting rods, ARP hardware, and the billet oil pump gears. You can use the stock crankshaft for 99% of all AED applications.
*insert evil laugh here*

Some supercharged cars blow.......Others just pick up and move.
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 07-27-2004, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by A-Train
Wolverine27,

"I have been told that 6 psi does not put extra strain on the short block since it can handle the power, but the 9 psi would blow the rods..."

You were told wrong. Keep thinking like that and burry your head in the sand.

The hypereutectic pistons are weak in the 4.6L engine. I have seen two NATURALLY ASPIRATED 4.6L engines with broken ring lands on the pistons. No blower, no turbo...no nitrous!

1 psi of boost is enough to damage the pistons, all you have to do is knock or go lean and you'll walk home. It's as simple as a failing fuel pump when you're at WOT. The fact that you have a roots/hybrid blower means you stress the engine more so than if you used a centrifugal blower.

Trust me. He's right. I know. Because I put an AED blower on my 96 with 20K on it and the pistons gave up. I mean, if you're gonna put a blower in it...Who's gonna drive it like a granny? What would be the point? You're gonna hurt your motor in all probability. Now you could drive it till it pukes and then fix it. But it might be a long walk. Go forged if you want reliability and peace of mind.


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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:33 PM
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A-Train and Rude,

I understand that the 6 PSI boost can cause damage over time to the crappy rods and pistons that ford puts in. My point was that a 6 PSI kit will not wear out the rods and pistons as quickly as the 9 PSI kit. A-Train, you know what I am talking about right? The point I was trying to make is that on a stock car with a 6 PSI set up, the rods and pistons should be able to handle the extra power without breaking. I know that I am gonna need a new short block eventually, what I plan to do is order a new Stripped Romeo engine Block, Cobra 8 Bolt Crankshaft and Flywheel, and Manley Forged Pistons and Connecting Rods and then just swap the short blocks out. Since I am not on the boost and at WOT all the time, I know that I am not causing too much strain, but no one will know until I bend a rod, crack a piston or something else happens...

AED 9 PSI Supercharger, .30 over Forged Block with Manley H-Beam Rods & Pistons, Innovative West 10% Overdrive Crank Pulley, Thump RRR Tensioner Pulley, Cobra Crankshaft, BPE Racing Stage 2 Ported & Polished Heads, Crower Direct Replacement Cams, 70MM Throttle Body, MAC Cold Air Intake, 80 MM L-MAF, 38Lbs Injectors, JBA Ceramic Coated Headers, Metal Matrix Drive Shaft, Kevlar Clutch & Kolene Reaction Plate Transmission, True 2.5" Dual Magnaflow Exhaust (Cats & Mufflers), Griffin 1 1/4" Radiator, B&M Racing Trans Cooler, Hughes 2750 Stall Torque Converter, 3.73:1 Gears with Traction Lock Differential, Trans-Go Kit, Superchips Custom Tune for Supercharger, 17" SVT Wheels, Kenny Brown Suspension Enhancers & Eibrach Lowering Kit.
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 01:09 PM
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Your still missing the point.


Some supercharged cars blow.......Others just pick up and move.
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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 02:53 PM
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I understand the point fine AEDM8,

However, why should I tear apart my engine now, when the car is running fine....I mean a short block tear down is a minimum 5 day repair...Why not just wait until the block goes? By the way, I have a cell phone and AAA Plus, so no walking would be involved...

AED 9 PSI Supercharger, .30 over Forged Block with Manley H-Beam Rods & Pistons, Innovative West 10% Overdrive Crank Pulley, Thump RRR Tensioner Pulley, Cobra Crankshaft, BPE Racing Stage 2 Ported & Polished Heads, Crower Direct Replacement Cams, 70MM Throttle Body, MAC Cold Air Intake, 80 MM L-MAF, 38Lbs Injectors, JBA Ceramic Coated Headers, Metal Matrix Drive Shaft, Kevlar Clutch & Kolene Reaction Plate Transmission, True 2.5" Dual Magnaflow Exhaust (Cats & Mufflers), Griffin 1 1/4" Radiator, B&M Racing Trans Cooler, Hughes 2750 Stall Torque Converter, 3.73:1 Gears with Traction Lock Differential, Trans-Go Kit, Superchips Custom Tune for Supercharger, 17" SVT Wheels, Kenny Brown Suspension Enhancers & Eibrach Lowering Kit.
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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-11-2004, 11:39 AM
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Can I ask why you are telling me that I am sitting on a ticking time bomb and need to put in forged pistons and forged rods, when I just heard that you are still on the stock pistons and rods with 10 PSI?

My mechanic informed me that he would not do anything as of yet, since with my set up, I should not have a problem. Also, he said that when the time comes, the most that would happen is that I would crack a piston. He said the chances of throwing a rod are slim. However, he did suggest that I purchase the set-up that I want and have it on hand in case of a problem, but he said he does not see a problem occurring in the near future.

AED 9 PSI Supercharger, .30 over Forged Block with Manley H-Beam Rods & Pistons, Innovative West 10% Overdrive Crank Pulley, Thump RRR Tensioner Pulley, Cobra Crankshaft, BPE Racing Stage 2 Ported & Polished Heads, Crower Direct Replacement Cams, 70MM Throttle Body, MAC Cold Air Intake, 80 MM L-MAF, 38Lbs Injectors, JBA Ceramic Coated Headers, Metal Matrix Drive Shaft, Kevlar Clutch & Kolene Reaction Plate Transmission, True 2.5" Dual Magnaflow Exhaust (Cats & Mufflers), Griffin 1 1/4" Radiator, B&M Racing Trans Cooler, Hughes 2750 Stall Torque Converter, 3.73:1 Gears with Traction Lock Differential, Trans-Go Kit, Superchips Custom Tune for Supercharger, 17" SVT Wheels, Kenny Brown Suspension Enhancers & Eibrach Lowering Kit.
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-11-2004, 01:56 PM
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Not much boost here on this Mach 1 motor but a (w)hole lotta mess just the same.

I feel that if you plan to add any type of boost on a 4.6 then you need to do it right and add the proper internals or you could ruin the entire engine if/when it blows. I've seen some very nasty blowups (at low boost) that took everything out so the guy who told you "it will just crack a piston" might not be the best choice for a builder.

You could get lucky but then again you might not so why roll the dice? Money could be a concern and I can understand that but the way I see it would be cheaper to do it all at once then pull the motor after the blower was installed since they can be a PITA to install anyway so why do that job twice? Positive displacement blowers might not have the high boost levels of a conch shell blower but what they do have is instant torque and that is very harsh on everything downstream so be sure to take that into consideration.

Another thing I'd like to add is the fact that both A-train and Rudy have had many years with their AED setups and they are merely trying to help you so please try to take their advice with a grain of salt without being as combative, Try to learn from their experiences so you can continue to enjoy the ride.

-Scott
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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-11-2004, 02:00 PM
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Wolverine27,

You believe whatever you want to believe. The truth (read: FACT) is, this is my second engine. I lost the #2 piston ring land on my original '95 ROMEO 4.6L (see the photo below). I had a good SCT tune and I always used 93 octane gasoline. The engine had 50k on it and 25k with the blower.

Eventually you will fail something, just get over that fact. Don't think that "6-psi" won't hurt the engine either. Just ask Nick Bell what "6-psi" did to his stock pistons on his AED T-Bird.

Again you refer to damage that can be done in terms of boost levels. Let's go over this one last time. Ready?

Maximum power any gasoline engine can develop is based on the amount of fuel that can be efficiently burned inside the combustion chambers. Air is actually a limiting factor is power production. Power output is directly proportional to the density of the air. If the inducted air is compressed to a higher density than the ambient air, prior to entry into the cylinders, the maximum power developed by the engine will increase. Increasing air density by increasing air pressure before it enters the cylinder is termed, "supercharging" or "turbocharging".

The downside of supercharging is the compressed air is hot. What determines the temperature of the discharge air is the superchargers efficiency range, blower speed, boost levels and ambient air temperature.

As the pressure and temperatures of the ambient air changes, so does the air density. As the density increases, the air mass flow rate increases. This allows the compressor to move a higher mass of air for the same volumetric flow rate.

The AED T-Bird kits use an Eaton M90S supercharger. It's a GEN-III type roots-hybrid design that is ported for AED.

The Eaton M90S has a peak adiabatic efficiency of 65% at 4 psi. At 6-psi it's just slightly lower. That means 65% of the supercharger work is used to make useful airflow and 35% is used to make unwanted heat. At 6-psi the efficiency drops to approx 60%. At 9-psi, the efficiency is much lower.

The 6-psi AED kits will generate about 135-145 degree F. discharge air after the INTERCOOLER on a 100 degree F. day. 10 psi will yield 160-175 degree F. on a 100 degree day.

Let's talk about boost. Boost is made when you flow air through a restriction. The more boost psi you have, the more air that is stacking up and NOT BEING USED. The engine can only induct so much air into the cylinders during each combustion process. Likewise, the engine can only exhaust so much air as well. You don't want boost since boost makes heat by virtue of thermodynamics law (compressed air is hot). The formula is PV=nRT. Also more heat means less spark and less air density. The more boost you have the more power it takes to turn the bower.

For example...

Eaton M90 - 14,000 rpm blower speed - 608 cfm air flow - 12 psi of boost = 50 HP to turn the supercharger and creates 314 degree F. discharge air temperature*.

Eaton M90 - 14,000 rpm blower speed - 608 cfm of air flow - 6psi of boost = 33 HP to turn the blower and creates 217 degree F. discharge air temperature*.

*Before intercooling.

It's clear that you want cool dense air flow, rather than boost. Boost psi will drop of you open up, a restrictive exhaust system or port the cylinder heads. Boost psi will increase if you use a smaller blower pulley or open the restrictive inlet to the blower.

Just be aware that cylinder pressure and heat are your enemy. The number one cause of piston ring land failures is knock. If you hear the engine rattling or knocking it's most likely already done it's damage.

Your engine may last 100,000 + miles if the conditions are perfect. We don't live in a perfect world do we? I'm not telling you to replace your engine now, I never said that. You made a statement above that was untrue and very misleading. I simply corrected you.

"I have been told that 6 psi does not put extra strain on the short block since it can handle the power, but the 9 psi would blow the rods..."

Yeah, ask KDanner what 9-psi of boost (maybe even 8 psi) did for his stock rods. There was a photo he had that showed light on both sides of the 4.6L engine block. I believe he said they found a connecting rod stuck in the bulkhead (firewall).

Nuff said...

A-Train




The weak 4.6L piston and rods are on the left and the older forged 5.0L piston is on the right.

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325 RWHP/380 RWTQ (SAE) on a dynojet
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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-11-2004, 02:02 PM
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Big Scott,

Thank you much!

A-Train

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2012 Honda Ridgeline RTL (w/Navi)

Ex toy: 1995 T-Bird LX - ALLEN supercharged, 2000 Mustang GT 4.6L PI engine, lot's of goodies...
12.74 @ 109.45 mph (BEST E.T. BEST MPH)
325 RWHP/380 RWTQ (SAE) on a dynojet
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post #16 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-11-2004, 08:21 PM
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Thanks A-Train for you explaination,

I underatnd what you are saying. I have ordered a set of Manley forged pistons and rods. I also ordered a cobra crank shaft and an 8 bolt flex plate. I am gonna hang on to them until the engine goes and needs rebuilding. See, I guess my frustration is that I just put on new heads, and the AED set up and no one said to change the rods and pistons. Had the engine out of the car and completely disassembled. Would have been just a little extra in labor, if anything, to change the parts then. Now, it would cost me over 1000, to overhaul the short block. People are telling me to do it when it goes. Would you agree? Also, to clarify my original post, I meant that Scott at AED told me that the 6 PSI kit does not cause the damage to the stock block as the 9 PSI kit does. He mentioned about your original engine and what happened, that is why I stayed away from the 9 PSI kit.

By the way, did you put in the forged pistons and rods in yours yet or are you waiting until you have to?

Please know that I appreciate all your help and advice.

Oh, Jim gave me some numbers for you. A/F is 12.0...6 Degree's of spark advance...180 Thermostat and the adjustments made to compensate at cold start up. I am going up there on Friday because I am having a strange occurance at 195 degree's and above when I start the engine and place it in gear, the RPM's are dropping below 500 and the car is almost stalling out until I give it gas. At that time, I can get you the ACT and other numbers that you may need to see if the tune is a good tune. Let me know what figures you need.

AED 9 PSI Supercharger, .30 over Forged Block with Manley H-Beam Rods & Pistons, Innovative West 10% Overdrive Crank Pulley, Thump RRR Tensioner Pulley, Cobra Crankshaft, BPE Racing Stage 2 Ported & Polished Heads, Crower Direct Replacement Cams, 70MM Throttle Body, MAC Cold Air Intake, 80 MM L-MAF, 38Lbs Injectors, JBA Ceramic Coated Headers, Metal Matrix Drive Shaft, Kevlar Clutch & Kolene Reaction Plate Transmission, True 2.5" Dual Magnaflow Exhaust (Cats & Mufflers), Griffin 1 1/4" Radiator, B&M Racing Trans Cooler, Hughes 2750 Stall Torque Converter, 3.73:1 Gears with Traction Lock Differential, Trans-Go Kit, Superchips Custom Tune for Supercharger, 17" SVT Wheels, Kenny Brown Suspension Enhancers & Eibrach Lowering Kit.
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