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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-14-2006, 04:15 PM Thread Starter
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There's a couple guys on here who are running a vortech with 9 or more psi of boost on stock internals and seem to have no problems as of yet. My question is.........What’s the difference between the vortech and AED's boost on the stock internals for the 96-97 4.6? Is 9 psi boost on a AED just as hazardous as the vortech's?

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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-14-2006, 05:29 PM
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Boost is Boost roots blowers make boost quicker then the centrifugal blowers .
I dont know which one makes more heat .


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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-14-2006, 07:15 PM
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It depends, but as Jurgen stated...boost is boost.

Whenever you compress air you heat it, so there is no getting around that.

The fact of the matter is if you are looking just at the AED vs a standard Vortech blower, the AED will be intercooled. That is a bonus for sure when you are looking at air charge temps and cylinder pressures.

The efficiency of the Eaton M90(S) at 4-5-psi is 65% adiabatic. That is actually very good despite what people say. When you raise the M90 to 9-psi the efficiency drops off more than we'd like to see.

The Vortech on the other hand (depending on the compressor map type) will actually increase efficiency as the boost goes up. The difference is how the superchargers compress the air and how well they move it.

So comparing an intercooled 9-psi AED kit to a non-intercooled 9-psi Vortech, I'd say they would be identical in the longevity dept. The 4.6L has a glass jaw with the pistons and connecting rods so pushing any boost through the stock parts is asking for trouble. Keep the boost low and have a perfect tune and the engine should last for some time. Don't expect 100,000 miles out of it.

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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-14-2006, 08:09 PM Thread Starter
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To keep boost low, Open the exhaust and intake?

exhaust- kooks headers, high flow cats, strait pipes?

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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-14-2006, 08:17 PM Thread Starter
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I saved it! Nevermind

Quote:
Josh,

Port and polish NON-PI heads will work great and add some port and polishing to the Allen intake and runners.

Open the exhuast as well. Just remember that an opened up exhaust (meaning free flowing) and ported heads will yield lower boost levels with higher power output. WHICH IS GOOD!

Just don't be surprised to see lower boost numbers on the gage.

If you have any further questions, just drop me a line.

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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-14-2006, 09:46 PM
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A 4.6L will run forever with a Centrifugal pullied for 8-9psi. Open up the exhaust end to make sure if it’s getting rid of the additional volume and smile your way to 310-330+rwhp (much more with better cams and a PI intake). There are literally hundreds, upon hundreds of '96-'98 Mustangs with the same set up as our running S-Trims pullied for just that without an after cooler and without so much as a hiccup. Some are even running 10-12psi without after coolers or issue. The 4.6L isn't bulletproof, but it's not completely anemic either. Keep the timing conservative and the A/F ratio reasonable and don't look back.

I almost wished I'd bought an S-trim for my car over my AED. I could have made a lot more power, for a lot less money.

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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-14-2006, 10:34 PM
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I disagree 100%...

Quote:
A 4.6L will run forever with a Centrifugal pullied for 8-9psi
Sorry Brian but I have to disagree with you.

Centrifugals and the stock hyperpathetic pistons are just as deadly as any turbo or Eaton supercharger. If you think a 4.6L with hypereutectic pistons and 8-9 psi of boost from a Vortech will last forever, think of all the money you could have saved Ford Motor Company when they built the '03-'04 Cobra and used forged pistons and forged rods as well as a forged crankshaft.

KDanner can tell you a 4.6L will not last forever with a Vortech supercharger and about 8-9psi of boost.

There are to many variables to control and all it takes is a tank of bad gasoline to crack a ring land.

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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-14-2006, 11:20 PM
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I'm not one to often disagree with you Tony, but being a long time member over at Stangnet, I can think of several dozen of our fellow 4.6L owners that are running that much airflow though their '96-'04 Mustangs using kits like the S-Trim based Mongoose from companies like MPH who will prove you wrong.....and most for several thousand miles. Can I say for sure that they’ll see 100,000-miles out of the set up? No, I really can’t since most get bored with that power level long before that and usually start playing away until something breaks or they're ready to really start putting money into their set up. But in the same respect, one couldn’t say beyond a shadow of a doubt that racking up that kind of mileage couldn’t happen either. None of the owners that I know of to this date have broken a piston or bent a rod while staying within the specified parameters. The ones that have, have done so because either gotten greedy with the timing, or the boost. Not to mention that owning a much more powerful car is going to make it more fun to drive. I don't know about you, but the first thing I do when I add gobs of power to a vehicle is to push it....and push it often. Yeah, there are other variables to consider, but that's the chance you take anytime you're running a power adder. It's just one more thing to shorten an engines life span. A bad tank of gas can kill you running a 50-shot or 5-6psi of boost just as easily as it can end the party with 100-shot and 8-9psi of boost. Ya tune the car, for what it's built for and if things start going south much beyond that, you haven't got much of a safety net.

I think the problem many face when trying to do it with an MN12 is that most don't consider the needed exhaust and intake upgrades required to make their car breath even on par with a stock Mustang. Small on the intake side, half-assed set up on the exhaust side….those are issues that need to be resolved first, before one decides to start cramming any form of artificial aspiration into their engine.

The ones that don't address the essentials are the ones who run into the problems associated with backing up that additional volume within the system and generating the heat and tuning issues that go along with it. Something is bound to go sooner or later.

~Brian~


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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-15-2006, 04:05 AM
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Well said .
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-15-2006, 09:49 AM
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Again...

Brian,

You are contradicting yourself.

Quote:
A 4.6L will run forever with a Centrifugal pullied for 8-9psi.
Quote:
Can I say for sure that they’ll see 100,000-miles out of the set up? No...
I've personally seen two NATURALLY ASPIRATED 4.6L engines that had cracked ring lands or damaged pistons. Yes, they knocked and most likely heavily, but the parts are not designed to handle any abuse. The fact that you add any boost (remember that boost is made when you flow air through a restriction) at all drops the longevity of the engine in half.

Just because 12 guys on the internet have run their Mustangs with Vortech blowers without an hiccup doesn't mean you'll have the same luck.

Using my set-up as an example. I had the stock 4.6L ROMEO engine last only 6 months after I added the smaller blower pulley. I never heard it knock or ping, it just laid over and stopped pulling in 3rd gear. The car was tuned by SCT and only used 93 octane Exxon. The 2000 WINDSOR engine went in the car in 2001 and has seen 9-10 psi of boost for 5 years now. The mileage on the new motor is approx 45,000 miles and I don't expect it to last forever. My personal experience with boost and the 4.6L was a 50% failure rate. The evidence is clearly right in front of you.

The 4.6L in it's natural form uses a poorly designed piston ring land package and very weak powdered metal connecting rods with fracture split ends. The block is very strong and the bottom end is secured by 4 bolt mains. If you have a Windsor you'll also find dowels pins as well. The head gaskets seal very well and the blown head gaskets of the 5.0L years are long gone.

So you tell me where the weakest link is?

I see you are complaining about your decision to invest in the AED kit. Let me tell you something, the fastest MN12 here runs 10.5's @ 130 mph and uses an AED blower while making over 500 RWHP. You need to be resourceful, if you want to go fast, it costs money.

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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-15-2006, 12:30 PM Thread Starter
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I would have to agree, sure you do see a lot of Mustangs with aftermarket SC's on stock internals. Then they sell them on ebay or forums when they know that the motors been boosted for too long. You have to look at it this way, do you know any one with a aftermarket sc’d Mustang with 150,000++ miles? My motor been sc'd since 42,000 miles and now I have 88,000. I was thinking about 9psi, but once you do that your motors life is shortened dramatically. I'd rather stay sc'd at 6psi and have fun with it longer. If I had the money to rebuild, P&P I’d do it…..but I’m poor, haha!

I'm getting it dyno tuned next month after I open the exhaust a little more and calling it a day. Once I hit my 12.9 or better at the end of the summer I will have reached my goal. I'm happy with 6psi, who knows, maybe ill be the fastest MN-12 with a 6psi Allen kit on a stock motor. Wonder what the fastest is?

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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-15-2006, 04:01 PM
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over 80,000 boosted miles at 6 psi here

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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-15-2006, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Train
Brian,

You are contradicting yourself.
Surely you must realize that this was a figure of speech on my part. By stating it would "run forever" I meant that it would last a long time.....as long as any power adder car should. I'll be a little more careful on how I word my responses when I know you'll be replying to them next time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Train
I've personally seen two NATURALLY ASPIRATED 4.6L engines that had cracked ring lands or damaged pistons. Yes, they knocked and most likely heavily, but the parts are not designed to handle any abuse. The fact that you add any boost (remember that boost is made when you flow air through a restriction) at all drops the longevity of the engine in half.

Just because 12 guys on the internet have run their Mustangs with Vortech blowers without an hiccup doesn't mean you'll have the same luck.

Using my set-up as an example. I had the stock 4.6L ROMEO engine last only 6 months after I added the smaller blower pulley. I never heard it knock or ping, it just laid over and stopped pulling in 3rd gear. The car was tuned by SCT and only used 93 octane Exxon. The 2000 WINDSOR engine went in the car in 2001 and has seen 9-10 psi of boost for 5 years now. The mileage on the new motor is approx 45,000 miles and I don't expect it to last forever. My personal experience with boost and the 4.6L was a 50% failure rate. The evidence is clearly right in front of you.

The 4.6L in it's natural form uses a poorly designed piston ring land package and very weak powdered metal connecting rods with fracture split ends. The block is very strong and the bottom end is secured by 4 bolt mains. If you have a Windsor you'll also find dowels pins as well. The head gaskets seal very well and the blown head gaskets of the 5.0L years are long gone.

So you tell me where the weakest link is?
I'm quite aware that the rotating assembly saddled with our 2V engines isn’t amongst the toughest, but you're condemning an entire line because of a very small percentage of mishaps. I've seen 5.0L's blow up under boost or giggle gas with far less than 100,000 on the clock as well. Blown head gaskets with an OHV are even more common than broken pistons with an OHC (although admittedly not as expensive…but still enough to ruin your weekend, none the less). Is that to say that one shouldn't bother blowing an OHV engine either? **** happens....it just happens in a different manor with the OHC engine, than in does with the OHV, which is why more careful attention needs to be paid with regards to the tune.

Another thing I also find it quite interesting that the latest generation 3V engines use essentially the same "weak" bottom end as our 2V engines use, yet we're seeing 400- 500rwhp out of basic level street kits. I'm not hearing of very many failures out there for them as of yet, are you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Train
I see you are complaining about your decision to invest in the AED kit. Let me tell you something, the fastest MN12 here runs 10.5's @ 130 mph and uses an AED blower while making over 500 RWHP. You need to be resourceful, if you want to go fast, it costs money.
Not complaining about the kit at all. I think it’s a great kit, but as my build progressed, I realized I have bigger and better plans for this build up later in for the future and in hind sight, the REV I that I’ve chosen probably isn’t going to get me there. I’m quite aware that it costs money. I’ve got over $14,000 invested thus far (not including the cost of the car) and the damn thing isn’t even running yet. The plan is, is that once I get bored of my MN12, I'll be buying another Mustang to stick the power train into. Now, I've got a 600+rwhp capable engine, matched to a blower that's only going to get me into the 350-375rwhp or so range....and even that's required some creativity. I realize there owner of the fastest MN12 here runs 10.5'[email protected] with an AED kit. (who do you think it was that I bought my REV I kit from in the first place? ) That's besides the point....he's not running those times with a REV I and an M90S, he's doing it with the Twin Screw 2300AX. And before you go mentioning to me that he's run high-11’s with his REV I, know that you don't have to bother. I'm quite aware what's been done and I'm also aware of what it took to get him there. Plenty of work and a lot of trial and error….which of course I’m grateful for, since it saves me from having to do a lot of it.

What I'm saying, is that I could have gotten their cheaper and easier with a different blower with bigger lungs. For what I’ve got sunk into this set up, I could have gone with a Novi 2000, D1SC or even AED’s Race Kit and still have come out even on the cost. The REV I and REV II kits are a great entry level kit, but I'm sure you'll be the first to admit that they are limited. I’m not complaining about the kit, I’m venting my own personal frustration with myself. It was my own fault for jumping the gun on the REV I when AED went out of business last year. I was originally saving up for the Race Kit and even still tossing the idea of a Centrifugal around in my head, but when I found out that the REV I kit Mike had was one of the only ones left, I jumped on it for fear having nothing at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OxmanWI
I would have to agree, sure you do see a lot of Mustangs with aftermarket SC's on stock internals. Then they sell them on ebay or forums when they know that the motors been boosted for too long.
Does that go with the blown 5.0L's and numerous Chevy's and Imports you see being sold on Ebay as well? That comment was pure speculation on your part and you know it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OxmanWI
You have to look at it this way, do you know any one with a aftermarket sc’d Mustang with 150,000++ miles?
Let me ask you something.....how many years now have aftermarket companies been working within the blown Modular Market.....6.....7 maybe? That's in comparison to what....twice that lengthe of time with the old "five-point-oh"? You're not going to see many high mileage blown mod engines out there because frankly, most haven't even owned their blowers that long. Can you think of any car that comes to mind, that’s had an aftermarket blower under the hood for that many miles? Timb is one of the highest blower mileage cars I can think of and even he’s barely had his on for a little over half of the time you suggested.

Upping the boost within reasonable levels is only considered "dramatic" when you're looking at the glass half empty. What some of you may consider dramatic, others may consider still well within reason. It all depending on which side of the issue you're looking at it from.

Geeze guys, if I’d know keeping an open mind about the subject would have created such a stir, I wouldn’t have posted in the first place……nahhh, that’s not true either.

~Brian~


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Last edited by Mod Motor Cat; 06-15-2006 at 05:37 PM.
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-15-2006, 09:58 PM
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This will be alot of good info for most guys that ask questions about blowers and boost , we all know that stock engines with booost are like time bombs .A tccoa member that lives here in michigan got his vortech on and didt get to drive it much before it happened.


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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-15-2006, 10:22 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mod Motor Cat
Does that go with the blown 5.0L's and numerous Chevy's and Imports you see being sold on Ebay as well? That comment was pure speculation on your part and you know it.
Yeah but that’s a very good speculation, probably the main reason most of the guys sell cause they know its been boost’d for too long.

Or they saw a newer faster car with fat-half-naked chicks hanging out the side and had to get it. So then they sell the boost’d one. It’s true......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mod Motor Cat
Let me ask you something.....how many years now have aftermarket companies been working within the blown Modular Market.....6.....7 maybe?
Granted, we’ll have to see the out come, but it’s still dangerous……

High boost on stock internals is like a hot chick with STD’s, everyone wants to hit it, but afraid of the consequences. Haha!

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