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post #1 of 59 (permalink) Old 08-31-2011, 05:22 PM Thread Starter
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Front Lower Ball Joint....

Hey guys, I had a quick question regarding a repair I had done a couple days ago, (sorry if the
pictures are bad, I'm doing this all off my blackberry).

So I trust my mechanic and I go there all the time for repairs I can't do. Recently I had the drivers
side lower ball joint replaced, I decided to check out the work that was done just to make sure it
looks good, but it looks strange to me. Why is this welded? It doesn't seem like it should be... But I
have never seen one replaced before...
Anyway, does this look repaired properly...







Sorry if the pictures look bad, hopefully you can still get an idea as to what was done there..

Thanks a lot guys appreciate it!
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post #2 of 59 (permalink) Old 08-31-2011, 05:29 PM
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The lowers are supposed to "press" in.... I've never seen it done like that.. I think I would INSIST on an explanation..

Welding will cook the grease that was in there and quit possibly warp it to the point of making things bind...

If the lower control arms were beat up so bad they wouldn't have held a new ball joint it should have been replaced, NOT welded....



I think I would be looking for another mechanic,, actually I KNOW I would...

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post #3 of 59 (permalink) Old 08-31-2011, 05:39 PM
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I could be mistaking this for an upper arm issue but I seem to recall one of the cheapo brand control arms/balljoints have too much tolerance for a real press fit.

Personally I wouldn't drive ten miles on that. In addition to the possibility of warping the joint and arm it could have been weakened during the welding.

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post #4 of 59 (permalink) Old 08-31-2011, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
I could be mistaking this for an upper arm issue but I seem to recall one of the cheapo brand control arms/balljoints have too much tolerance for a real press fit.

Personally I wouldn't drive ten miles on that. In addition to the possibility of warping the joint and arm it could have been weakened during the welding.
The uppers come made into the upper control arm, at least any I have seen were...

That just scares the h*** out of me, the arm could crack from the heat.. Also, to add to my previous post, that dude needs to LEARN how to weld!!!!

One thing for sure if you ever have to replace the lowers again it "will" be with a control arm..... as it should have this time if it was that worn... I wonder if he even used the "correct" ball joint.......

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post #5 of 59 (permalink) Old 08-31-2011, 05:56 PM Thread Starter
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Wow I am glad I posted this. I paid for a NEW lower ball joint replacement. I can't even tell what they did, I'm
definitely going back tomorrow then or possibly right now. Does anyone have a picture of what a replaced one should look like? I assume like factory, and that does not look like the passenger factory lower ball joint..
Thanks a lot guys for the very quick replies.
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post #6 of 59 (permalink) Old 08-31-2011, 06:01 PM
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Ball joint


Control arm with ball joint


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post #7 of 59 (permalink) Old 08-31-2011, 06:07 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks a lot man! Yeah I don't really think any suspension component should be welded, like wtf. It bothers me
because I was pretty loyal to them, but after seeing this, I'm pretty disappointed, I'm anxious to see what they
tell me. The car still rattles a tad from that side so I'm thinking it could be because of that. Ill probably head
down there in an hour or so. Ill let you guys know what he says lol.
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post #8 of 59 (permalink) Old 08-31-2011, 06:15 PM
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I don't know if this is your rattle or not but:

Both of my birds have a little clunk when hitting potholes, it is the (can't remember what it is called) thrust bearing at the top of the front struts.. With a pry bar you can "feel" a little lost motion but it's not enough to be able to see it.. The 97 has been doing it for the last 75,000 miles and hasn't gotten any worse.. My 93 just started doing it..

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post #9 of 59 (permalink) Old 08-31-2011, 06:25 PM Thread Starter
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I hadn't even of thought of checking there, that is definitely something to look at, thanks man. I think I'm going to go and head down to the shop now. I can easily see them saying that its supposed to be like that or something though. Not sure what to do if they say that... I'll have to end up getting the whole arm replaced now.


EDIT: Looks like I'm going tomorrow, just went there now and they're already closed for the day....

Last edited by Ryans91CougarLS; 08-31-2011 at 06:57 PM.
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post #10 of 59 (permalink) Old 08-31-2011, 08:59 PM
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Wow that is beyond unacceptable

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post #11 of 59 (permalink) Old 08-31-2011, 11:15 PM
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I would say if you were in the Chicago area bring it over by me and I would hook you up. As far as what to do with the ball joint go back with someone after getting a second or even a third opinion and scream til it hurts make them pay for the repairs somewhere else.

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post #12 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 11:57 AM Thread Starter
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OK, I went there today, and this is the explanation that I was given:
That the ball joints now call for a tack weld (that's clearly not a tack weld but whatever) on 3 sides on the balljoint now. There was an update to them that made that be a requirement for installation. Apparently all the dodge trucks and F-150's already require that.

Now I don't know the truth to this, I took a picture of what he wrote down as the part number for what he installed, I don't know if any of you have installed this one, or if anyone can pull up installation instructions, but I'd like to see where it says this requires a tack weld.



Apparently the balljoint is greasable and wouldn't cook the grease, and wouldn't affect the arm, APPARENTLY... For all I know he could be bsing, but apparently that's what they call for now.
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post #13 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 12:00 PM
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Total BS!!!

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post #14 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 12:09 PM
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Just a thought ... call Moog yourself ?
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post #15 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 12:12 PM Thread Starter
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The part # is actually K8477.
Yeah it seems like bs to me. I did a quick search on tack welding balljoints, and it seems like people do it, because with the balljoints pressed in they seem to have slack and slop around a bit.
Idk where to go from here now lol.
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post #16 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 12:15 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCTbird1994 View Post
Just a thought ... call Moog yourself ?
Didn't even think of that for whatever reason, I will right now.

Edit: They don't have a customer service line right now only email, I'll send one, but I'm also going to go to a couple different shops later today and see what they think.

Last edited by Ryans91CougarLS; 09-01-2011 at 12:59 PM.
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post #17 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 02:51 PM
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looks like a good way to wreck a moog ball joint and a ford control arm at the same time.

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post #18 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 03:41 PM
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looks like a good way to wreck a moog ball joint and a ford control arm at the same time.
Agreed. I found when I was rebuilding my suspension last year that its the same price for new bushings for the old LCAs as it is for all new LCAs. The best bet is just buy the new parts with new bushings pressed in.

That jerrywelded ball joint looks terrible...

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post #19 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 04:13 PM
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well, well...
http://www.google.com/search?q=moog+welded+ball+joint

Not so unsual

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I do it just because I still want to know HOW and WHY!!! Quit learning=die. Be informed as to WHAT, rather than learn,=brain-dead already.
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post #20 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 04:58 PM
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Welding "may" be the "new" standard, But I can guarantee you it WILL NOT be happening on anything I own or drive..

You know, quality workmanship is a thing of the past.. Just cobble it and call it good!!!

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post #21 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 05:00 PM
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Never had any issues with "old fashioned" unwelded TRW control arms on 6 MN12s in the last 20 years, aside from the ball joints themselves wearing normally.

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post #22 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 05:02 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah this was done terribly. I just went to a shop for a second opinion and he told me he hasn't heard of that and that it shouldn't of been done like that. He actually mentioned the "problem solver" ball joint and that it shouldn't fit like that.
So I might get a couple more opinions from other places in writing or something and go back again and see what they say.
Ultimately I'm going to probably get the whole arm replaced regardless.
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post #23 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryans91CougarLS View Post
Ultimately I'm going to probably get the whole arm replaced regardless.

... you should have done this in the first place, new Ball joint, New bushings for Shock and the LCA bolt sleeve / bushing. Win win win

From a mechanics point if view, you can bring all the "second opinions" you want, but it doesnt mean anything ... take it somewhere else next time or do it yourself.
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post #24 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 07:02 PM
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If you went in for new u joints and they welded them into the drive shaft how would that be any different ... that shop needs to be reported to the BBB they need to also pay for new parts and installation elsewhere. Talk to the owner of the shop if possible. Totally amazingly unacceptable

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post #25 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 07:26 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah the reason for replacement was only because I took it to them to inspect everything and let me know what suspension had shown any sign of wear to get the suspension all tight and good. The joint had some play in it, I went in there when the car was in the air and it looked like it needed replacing so he said to replace it. I didn't even think of doing the whole arm, figured the ball joint would be fine, but its definitely a much better idea to replace it all as a new unit (which I now know..). I'm still kind of learning about all this stuff, otherwise I would do it all myself.
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post #26 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 07:36 PM
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ummm they dont get welded they get pressed. wtf its not a mud truck that wont see the road where you can just weld **** together..

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post #27 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 07:38 PM
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Yeah, replacing the entire LCA is actually cheaper than the sum of its parts. You get all new bushings with it, except for the strut rod bushings. It's one where you should probably replace those too while you're in there, it's another $20 from Ford for each side.

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post #28 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 09:00 PM
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ummm they dont get welded they get pressed. wtf its not a mud truck that wont see the road where you can just weld **** together..
What do you mean .. welding is acceptable on a Mud truck because they drive offroad ( which takes more abuse obviously ), but not a high preformance car ??? LOL okay, get er done mentality. Shooot .. im not a certified welder, but those welds look like they wont break free. So whats the problem ? You dont like their methods ? You think you have an engineering degree and can determine how much stress the length of weld is capable of holding ? Yeah I didnt think so .. whats done is done. Either replace the whole LCA, or just let it go. Worse case it pops out .. wheel still isnt going to go anywhere unless you take the nut off also.


... as I type this, conemplating on Welding this crack in an Exhaust manifold for a customer's Land Rover Range Rover ... the dealership wants $1500 for a new part, not available aftermarket. What would YOU do ?
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post #29 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 09:27 PM
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I just replaced the whole LCA when I needed a new ball joint. Mostly because I was doing the work myself and don't have a press. The bonus was it has new rubber in the other bolt spots

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post #30 of 59 (permalink) Old 09-01-2011, 11:22 PM
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What do you mean .. welding is acceptable on a Mud truck because they drive offroad ( which takes more abuse obviously ), but not a high preformance car ??? LOL okay, get er done mentality. Shooot .. im not a certified welder, but those welds look like they wont break free. So whats the problem ? You dont like their methods ? You think you have an engineering degree and can determine how much stress the length of weld is capable of holding ? Yeah I didnt think so .. whats done is done. Either replace the whole LCA, or just let it go. Worse case it pops out .. wheel still isnt going to go anywhere unless you take the nut off also.


... as I type this, conemplating on Welding this crack in an Exhaust manifold for a customer's Land Rover Range Rover ... the dealership wants $1500 for a new part, not available aftermarket. What would YOU do ?
Let's see - we have a precision fitted pivot on the ball joint that can be easily distorted by the heat, plus grease that can boil out. Vis welding a crack in a manifold, that whereas it may affect exhaust flow, won't make any real difference to most people and their cars (those that it would, wouldn't weld a cracked manifold anyway without planning to re-port it )

You tell me.

I wouldn't weld the ball joint. No, I'm not an engineer, but being a"mere technician" what tries to understand HOW things work, I have all kinds of bad vibrations from that picture.

Apples and grapefruits, my friend. Apples and grapefruits.

Now, how about welding the BEARINGS into your hub because it's gotten wallowed out? That make sense to you? Or do you join with the rest of us in a "Oh $PROFANITY NO!" response?

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