93 Mark VIII Pulls to the right - then straight - then left when braking - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-17-2015, 02:33 PM Thread Starter
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93 Mark VIII Pulls to the right - then straight - then left when braking

I've been throwing parts at this issue for quite a while now and I'm getting sick of it.

When I hit the brakes, particularly at 50mph and up, but also at low speeds, the car immediately jerks violently to the right and the steering wheel turns by itself while this happens. It pulls hard enough that it will go off the road onto the shoulder if you're not holding on - it actually saved me from hitting a deer once when I slammed on the brakes - a Lincoln safety feature I guess LOL.

If I'm braking for more than a second or two the car will brake straight, but then when I release the brakes it pulls left.

I've had two mechanics look at it and an alignment shop, both of which I have been happy with their work. They both found nothing wrong - they did check the ball joints the proper way (jack up the lca and use a 2x4 to pry on the tire).

So far I've replaced the following:

Driver's side UCA and LCA;

Strut Rod Bushings at both LCA's (front strut rod bushings are solid and the wheel does not move when rocked with my foot and when watching the car brake).

Both rear calipers (one started leaking so I did it anyways);

Left front caliper and hose (alignment tech said he's seen that before and said it was probably a restrictive hose or sticking front left caliper).

Swapped pads from left to right to see if one is contaminated - no change;

Rotated tires left to right to see if there was a bad belt.

Bled the brakes numerous times just in case.

Otherwise the car drives beautifully. It tracks so straight on the highway that I can let the wheel go and it will stay straight.

If I downshift to 2nd on the highway (bad for the tranny I know) the car does nosedive a bit but stays straight on decel.

If I hit the e-brake on the highway it brakes straight.

WTF am I missing here? I'm going crazy trying to figure out why it won't brake straight
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post #2 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-17-2015, 02:41 PM
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Not to doubt your mechanic's ability, but that sounds exactly like worn out strut rod bushings. Did you replace the bushings to the subframe too, or just the ones at the control arm?

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post #3 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-17-2015, 04:34 PM Thread Starter
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Not to doubt your mechanic's ability, but that sounds exactly like worn out strut rod bushings. Did you replace the bushings to the subframe too, or just the ones at the control arm?
Strut rod at arms only. The frame side aren't cracked and are tight. When I had the LCA's off I reefed on the strut rod and there was zero movement back and forth at the frame side.
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post #4 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-17-2015, 08:34 PM
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Have someone move the car in the parking lot on and off the brakes while you watch the wheel in the wheel well. I think you'll be surprised.
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post #5 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-17-2015, 10:02 PM Thread Starter
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Have someone move the car in the parking lot on and off the brakes while you watch the wheel in the wheel well. I think you'll be surprised.
Thanks, I'll try looking at it again. It's just weird because the strut rod bushings on my 96 tbird were totally shot, cracked and everything, but it never pulled under braking and yet the Mark's are in great shape.

What are the chances it could be the master cylinder? I've heard someone mention that because of the split circuits, but it just seems farfetched.
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post #6 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-18-2015, 09:14 AM Thread Starter
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Update: Upon a closer inspection and prying with a bigger prybar, I managed to find a slight bit of play in my passenger side uca and inner tie rod end.

Obviously I'll replace them, but could they cause the pulling under braking I'm describing?
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post #7 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-18-2015, 10:03 AM
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Possibly, but I'm still thinking strut rod bushings. The UCA is more there to keep the top of the wheel from falling in, and does not carry much load. When it moves, there will be very slight changes to caster and camber, but likely not enough to cause a pull. A loose inner tie rod will directly affect the toe, which would definitely could cause a pull, but it would be more dependent on steering input, not braking, since hitting the brakes wants to move the wheel forward or backward in the wheel well, not make it want to turn left or right. When the strut rod bushings are shot however, the wheel moves back in the wheel well drastically. This simultaneously makes a large change in the caster angle, as well as toe because when it pulls back, the tie rod is still connected so it turns the spindle slightly.

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post #8 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-18-2015, 10:13 AM
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Hard to say but I'll throw out this ancedotal experience.

I chased a "loose front end" for a long time. I had one of my Mark VIII's in the garage many times looking for physical 'play' in any of the bushings to no avail. After finally observing the front wheel(s) floating back/forth in the wheel well when an assistant moved the vehicle back and forth in the driveway pumping the brakes, I decided to R&R the strut rod bushings.

Not having the proper tools, I could not loosen the nut on the strut rod. So I bit the bullet and sent it to a local shop for repairs. Besides replacing the strut rod bushings the shop found one LCA suspect and the opposite side UCA as well. I had both sides, upper and lower replaced, basically rebuilding the entire front suspension.

After the obligatory alignment, the shop owner and I went for a test ride and the car drove literally like it was on rails, even under extreme braking.

I only surmise the previous multiple attempts to find play in any front end component could not replicate the forces on the front end components when under braking. Further, if you think how the front end components complement each other, a beginning failure in one component serves to amplify the stresses in any adjacent component causing a domino effect and a change in the front end geometry, particularly when braking.
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post #9 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-18-2015, 10:25 AM Thread Starter
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Makes sense. I guess I'll have to drop the LCA's and replace the front srb's and get it aligned for a third time this month

I do have the OEM bushings sitting in my garage, which were actually cheaper at the dealer than Moog bushings. Weird.

Considering the car's 22 years old do you think the strut rod sleeves are going to be seized on the rod?

They're discontinued so does that mean I'm SOL and have to go w/aftermarket bushings if the sleeves are seized on?
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post #10 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-18-2015, 10:54 AM
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Good news - there's a guy who makes stainless ferrules for these! His name's Jay Richmond, and he's here as 98Mark8LSC - but is quicker found on Facebook and Lincolns vs Cadillacs ( http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/ ) . I'd recommend Facebook myself.

Bad news - one of the rubber bushings has been discontinued from Ford, there's info in the bushing part number sticky.

Good news - there's still SOME stock last I heard out there.

But yes, it looks like we're going to have to bite the bullet and go for the "thermoplastic" crap. Which means you'll have to stick with the high end parts.

There's a thread here on the proper order to assemble the Moog parts - which isn't obvious from the parts! - and the pic is here: http://forums.tccoa.com/showpost.php...2&postcount=18

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post #11 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-18-2015, 06:30 PM Thread Starter
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So today I had my assistant (SWMBO) drive the car and brake hard repeatedly while I ran along side - guess what... both front wheels shift to the back of the car on hard braking, so I guess off to do the strut rod bushings I go!

Someone please educate me but wouldn't bad strut rod bushings cause the wheel to move forward on braking? I thought they mostly kept rearward tension on the LCA?

Man these cars are picky
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post #12 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-18-2015, 07:17 PM
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96BeaterBird - consider the physics.

When you apply the brakes, the wheels slow down. However, the body itself does not, until all the slack is taken out of the linkages.

So - the tires move back, the body moves forward on braking.

That's just basic physics, man.

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post #13 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-18-2015, 07:27 PM Thread Starter
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96BeaterBird - consider the physics.

When you apply the brakes, the wheels slow down. However, the body itself does not, until all the slack is taken out of the linkages.

So - the tires move back, the body moves forward on braking.

That's just basic physics, man.

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Thanks for the lesson lol. I never thought it was an srb issue just because of the way it pulled violently under braking and how it drives so well at all other times.

In my mind I always pictured the LCA's being pushed forward under braking, I guess due to the caster angle (lca in front of the uca) it just seemed to make sense that the lca would be pushed forward.

Now I'm tempted to ride on the hood of the car and see how far back the wheel really goes
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post #14 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-18-2015, 11:06 PM
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The thing about why it pulls is that it alters the geometry of the tie rods vis the pivot angle, thereby ... steering the car.

For instance, as the wheel moves back, the tie rod is the same length (relatively) to the center of the car, so it pulls the front of the tire inwards (Inwards if in front - outwards if the tie rod is behind the spindle pivot line. I'd have to look,but I remember it being in front.)

That's why it steers so violently when you brake hard.

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post #15 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-19-2015, 12:54 PM Thread Starter
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It all makes sense now, but man do I feel dumb for starting ANOTHER srb thread

Since it's supposed to be minus 20 here tomorrow and I'm getting kind of tired of wrenching on this car, I'm gonna drop it at a shop and let them deal with it.

The owner's pretty familiar with the ferrules and said he might even have extras laying around somewhere if they don't come off

Now let's hope this actually is the issue! lol
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post #16 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-20-2015, 12:46 AM
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strut rod bushings aint no joke, I had one completely fail on my red 90 while I was making a loop from I-55 to I-12, I was doing about 70 when the front passenger wheel actually locked and I did a 360 down the enbankment off the side of the interstate, when the car finally stopped spinning I was just feet away from the tree line

thank god the stock locker wasnt burnt up in the rear dif, it had rained the day before and it was soo sloppy that with both wheels spinning my car was still sliding backwards down the hill while i was trying to get back on the interstate

I have yet to see a supercoupe with good strut rod bushings, all 9 of mine are shot

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post #17 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-20-2015, 06:58 AM Thread Starter
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strut rod bushings aint no joke, I had one completely fail on my red 90 while I was making a loop from I-55 to I-12, I was doing about 70 when the front passenger wheel actually locked and I did a 360 down the enbankment off the side of the interstate, when the car finally stopped spinning I was just feet away from the tree line

thank god the stock locker wasnt burnt up in the rear dif, it had rained the day before and it was soo sloppy that with both wheels spinning my car was still sliding backwards down the hill while i was trying to get back on the interstate

I have yet to see a supercoupe with good strut rod bushings, all 9 of mine are shot
Were those factory bushings or thermoplastic?
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post #18 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-20-2015, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
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Dammit! Just has the SRB's done and it still pulls!! It's a bit more manageable now though. The ferrules came out intact luckily, a bit rusty.

The pull's really similar, but if I hold onto the wheel I can keep it straight, so that's a plus.

So... where do I look now?
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post #19 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-20-2015, 07:48 PM
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Strange... I went back and read the original post and come away with a question... you replaced one front caliper?

Short of that, I can only suspect improper brake balance which means master cylinder maybe?
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post #20 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-20-2015, 08:46 PM Thread Starter
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Strange... I went back and read the original post and come away with a question... you replaced one front caliper?

Short of that, I can only suspect improper brake balance which means master cylinder maybe?
Yes, I replaced the left front caliper and flex hose. They both seemed fine, but they were cheap enough, I figured I should try it.

Both wheels rotate freely. I've taken measurements with an IR temp gun and the front wheels are within a few degrees of each other after some hard braking.

So how can I test the master cylinder? Or is there a way?
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post #21 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-20-2015, 09:32 PM
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Did you also replace the UCA and tie rod end that you found play in? If the brake temps are the same, I don't think it would be a brake issue, but a suspension issue, especially since it changed after replacing the SRB's. See if you can have someone hit the brakes while you watch the wheel again to see if the suspension is still moving or not.

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post #22 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-20-2015, 10:01 PM Thread Starter
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Replaced the inner tie rod that had play. Tracks straighter and steers nicer now.

I'm going to yank the new UCA's that I put on my t-bird parts car last year and put them in the Mark hopefully this weekend.

I will try to watch the wheel again soon.

The car's been converted to coils and shocks so since the tbird uca doesn't have the ball stud for the ride height sensor, will it make the compressor run or trigger a warning?
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post #23 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-21-2015, 06:12 AM
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No, just unplug and remove the sensors completely. The computer will sense that they are not there, throw and air ride error message, and never try to turn on the compressor. On the 97/98 I know there is a wire going to the message center that you can cut so it never displays the error message, there is probably the same setup on the 96 I would think, you just need to figure out which wire it is.

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post #24 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-21-2015, 01:24 PM Thread Starter
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I'm thinking I'll just press in a new lower ball joint on the passenger side while I'm doing the UCA. There's no play in it, but for the price, it can't hurt.

I'm also going to get ahold of a brake pressure gauge that screws into the bleeders to see if the pressure's even all around.

Other than that, I can't think of it being much else. Could it be the rack? Man I hope not
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post #25 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-21-2015, 02:03 PM
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On Brenda's old '96 Cougar, it pulled to the right under braking. Her "trusted" mechanic replaced the front brakes - didn't fix it.

He suggested brake proportioning valve, so I sourced a used one on here - didn't fix it.

Later on, we moved in together, and I got pneumatic tools. Replaced the lower ball joint (whole LCA) on the right side. FIXED!

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post #26 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-21-2015, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
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On Brenda's old '96 Cougar, it pulled to the right under braking. Her "trusted" mechanic replaced the front brakes - didn't fix it.

He suggested brake proportioning valve, so I sourced a used one on here - didn't fix it.

Later on, we moved in together, and I got pneumatic tools. Replaced the lower ball joint (whole LCA) on the right side. FIXED!

Al
Interesting.... Since the bushings are still tight in the LCA's think I'd be okay just doing the lower ball joint? I know it sucks to press them out and I did them both on the T-bird and swore never again would I do a press in ball joint, but I guess I must be a masochist lol
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post #27 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-21-2015, 05:25 PM Thread Starter
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Also forgot to mention that the car pulls to the left in reverse
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post #28 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-21-2015, 06:36 PM
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See if the Rack Bushings are wasted; this causes tracking differences.

You can waste one by bumping a curb... or, rather, I seem to be able to, lol.

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post #29 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-24-2015, 08:31 PM Thread Starter
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Went ahead and replaced the whole lca today - I abandoned the idea of pressing in new joints.

Managed to get a Moog control arm for $60 locally.

The old ball joint had about 1/4" of vertical play and could almost be pulled out of socket by hand.

It's scary that there was no play by rocking the wheel and all of the shops I went to said the ball joint was fine, even by prying on the tire with a 2x4 there was no play in the joint.

So I guess it's a good idea to replace your lower ball joints at a certain mileage, even if no play is found.

I wonder why they didn't put a wear indicating ball joint on this car?

Anyways, back to the driving part, I forgot to mark the LCA to subframe bolts and the alignment is sooo bad right now that the right tire is about 15 degrees to the left while the left tire is straight.

So needless to say, the car is about as precise as a 60 year old tractor, but it doesn't pull to the right when I hit the brakes

Off to the alignment shop I go!
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post #30 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-24-2015, 09:44 PM
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Good luck!
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