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post #1 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-09-2015, 09:57 PM Thread Starter
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Cutting rear springs

I bought a set of what I think were rear sport springs off of a member here a good 5 years ago and would like to cut them to accommodate the existing lowered kit on my mark viii.

My questions are-

Does it matter which end I cut? Both look identical, bottom/top "flattened" at the end of each side. If they are that would be great as it seems the bottom(?) half coil on both springs is pretty rusty which means that would be the side I'd cut off.

Any visual differences in a jjjj spring vs a regular one? No visible marking from what I can see.
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post #2 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-10-2015, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbcaprice305
My questions are-

Does it matter which end I cut? Both look identical, bottom/top "flattened" at the end of each side. If they are that would be great as it seems the bottom(?) half coil on both springs is pretty rusty which means that would be the side I'd cut off.
Yes..This picture was taken from this Sticky:Correct Way To Install Coil Springs
Thunderbird Cougar Rear Spring Orientation.jpg

This is the proper rear coil spring orientation..Notice how the coils are slightly closer together on the top of the coil spring..

You should cut from the top of the "rear" coil spring..So you don't increase the spring rate anymore than it already is..

Depending on which side of the coil spring that is rusted..

If you have to cut off the rusty end, and it ends up being the lower portion of the spring..Then you will increase the spring rate..

Which will necessitate the use of Bilstein or Koni rear shocks..
If you try to use stock shocks on springs with such a high spring rate your rear end is going to bounce around like a pogo stick..


Quote:
Originally Posted by sbcaprice305
Any visual differences in a jjjj spring vs a regular one? No visible marking from what I can see.
Yes..If your coil springs still have the tags on them..Sport or SC coil springs have a green coil tag on them..

Real Sport/SC coil springs should have a "JVC" tag on the front springs..The rears should have a "NUD" tag on the springs..

The 96-97 MN12's with the Sport package a lot of times had the "JVC" code springs up front, and the "GER" code springs out back..

The "GER" code rear springs are just regular V8 coil springs..

Earlier 91-92 Sport/89-95 SC Thunderbirds always had the "JVC"+ "NUD" combo AFAIK..

One other way to check whether or not you have regular coil springs vs Sport/SC coil springs is to measure the thickness of the coils..

Rear Sport/SC coil springs should be roughly .70" inches thick..You'll have to use a digital caliper to measure the center portion of the spring..

If you can..Take a measurement of your rear coil springs, and report back..





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Last edited by Rayo; 08-07-2017 at 02:14 AM. Reason: update pic..
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post #3 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-10-2015, 07:50 AM Thread Starter
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Rayo, thank you for the detailed post.

The thing is both ends of the spring look like the "top" in the provided picture.


They are tag-less so it looks like I''lll have to measure them. All I know is that they are a lot thinner than the rear springs on my lowered AAS kit. I assumed the bottom was the side with rust, just seems like the lower portion would be impacted more by winters fury and due to the dead coils rubbing on each other.

Last edited by sbcaprice305; 04-16-2015 at 08:56 AM.
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post #4 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-10-2015, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbcaprice305 View Post
Rayo, thank you for the detailed post.

The thing is both ends of the spring look like the "top" in the provided picture.


They are tag-less so it looks like I''lll have to measure them. All I know is that they are a lot thinner than the rear springs on my lowered AAS kit. I assumed the bottom was the side with rust, just seems like the lower portion would be impacted more by winters fury.
That picture shows progressive rate springs, which LX springs and most aftermarket springs are. SC/sport springs are linear rate springs, so they are the same top and bottom.

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post #5 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-10-2015, 09:19 AM
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All MN12's use progressive rate coil springs..

You may have trouble noticing it at a glance..

If you take the time to measure the space in between the coils you'll see there is a difference in the space between the coils from the top, and the bottom..






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post #6 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-10-2015, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbcaprice305 View Post
Rayo, thank you for the detailed post.

The thing is both ends of the spring look like the "top" in the provided picture.


They are tag-less so it looks like I''lll have to measure them. All I know is that they are a lot thinner than the rear springs on my lowered AAS kit. I assumed the bottom was the side with rust, just seems like the lower portion would be impacted more by winters fury.
NP..

Take some measurements of the coil thickness..As well as the space in between the coils..Like I said it may be hard to notice at a glance, but there is a difference..

One other thing..It's not unheard of that the rear coil spring was installed upside down on the factory assembly line..

So if this was the case with your springs you may have lucked out, and the rusted part might be the side with the coils spaced closer together..






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post #7 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-10-2015, 12:50 PM
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I can understand why cutting one side's coils off rather than the other's due to one side having a different rate.... but how can it matter what orientation the spring is installed in, aside from potential mounting differences? There are only two points on the spring where it exerts pressure, and the amount it exerts on both surfaces will always be identical, whether it's a linear rate spring or progressive rate spring, whether it's at rest, expanding, or being compressed.

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post #8 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-12-2015, 06:19 PM Thread Starter
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After further inspection the rust isn't as bad as I remembered, so orientation isn't an issue if I have to cut the non rusty side. Here are the pictures. If I have to keep the rusty ends in place I plan on fixing the issue.

The rusty end as seen on the right has the coils ever so slightly spaced closer together, that's the only difference I noticed.







I don't own a caliper so this is the best I could do.



Standing as how I think they were originally installed with the rusty end/tighter spaced coils on the bottom.




So what do you think?
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post #9 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-12-2015, 06:43 PM
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Judging by your pictures..The rusty side is the end you want to cut since the coils are more closely spaced on that end..

It's hard to say without actual measurements from a caliper, but those don't really look like SC/Sport springs..

If they're not SC/Sport springs I wouldn't even mess around them..

See if you can find a caliper to use to measure those springs you got to confirm the coil wire diameter..






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post #10 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-12-2015, 06:54 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayo View Post
Judging by your pictures..The rusty side is the end you want to cut since the coils are more closely spaced on that end..

It's hard to say without actual measurements from a caliper, but those don't really look like SC/Sport springs..

If they're not SC/Sport springs I wouldn't even mess around them..

See if you can find a caliper to use to measure those springs you got to confirm the coil wire diameter..






Rayo..
I don't care much if they're sc/sport springs. I just thought that's I bought many years ago, guess they must be regular v8 springs.

The issue with mine currently on the car is a busted bottom coil, if these are usable with a coil or 2 cut off then I'd like to try it. That's if I won't have any adverse handling issues doing so.

The lowered m8 springs are cut standard height m8 conversion springs, which are essentially thunderbird springs so I can't image there being much of an issue.

.

Last edited by sbcaprice305; 04-12-2015 at 07:10 PM.
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post #11 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-13-2015, 11:12 AM Thread Starter
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So let me get this right..

Cut from the rusty/tighter coiled side and use that side up? Or down?


That's my last question, I swear.
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post #12 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-13-2015, 12:45 PM
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Q: How are you going to cut the springs?
I cut my front sport springs years ago and minimized the heat transfer by marking my cutting point with some tape, wrapping a wet towel around the segments after the cutting point, and then using an angle grinder (vs. a plasma cutter or torch) to cut the coil section I wanted to remove.

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post #13 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-13-2015, 01:23 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
Q: How are you going to cut the springs?
I cut my front sport springs years ago and minimized the heat transfer by marking my cutting point with some tape, wrapping a wet towel around the segments after the cutting point, and then using an angle grinder (vs. a plasma cutter or torch) to cut the coil section I wanted to remove.
I will be using an angle grinder. This will be my first time cutting springs (Obviously ) I just want to make sure I cut and mount them correctly. Thank you for the tips!
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post #14 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-13-2015, 02:02 PM
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No problem. the key is you don't want to mess with the tempering so you want to minimize the heat transfer into the spring.
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post #15 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-13-2015, 04:35 PM
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So let me get this right..

Cut from the rusty/tighter coiled side and use that side up? Or down?


That's my last question, I swear.
Cut on the rusty side of your spring since those coils are more closely spaced together..

Then when you install the springs make sure the rusty part of the spring is facing up..

Don't cut more than 1 coil..

Here's a picture to give you an idea how you measure your cuts when you're cutting 1/2 or 1 coil..

Cutting Coil Springs.JPG






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post #16 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-13-2015, 10:27 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you Rayo and S4gunn for the additional help.


Wish me luck.
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post #17 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-19-2015, 12:35 AM Thread Starter
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Springs are cut and installed.

I took a coil off and they were 1" taller then what the previous springs were, uninstalled...Yet I gained maybe 1/4" in ride height. Am I missing something?

I'm racking my brain as to why I gained so little height. When I first cut them I was almost certain that they would end up being too tall, but I was ok with that as I could take them out and take a bit more off if necessary. Now I'm trying to understand where it went wrong.

If I remove my speaker box it does increase in height the same as the old springs. I just can't help but think something is binding back there preventing it from going higher..

On the bright side I no longer have a broken spring back there.

Last edited by sbcaprice305; 04-19-2015 at 01:05 AM.
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post #18 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-19-2015, 09:18 AM
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Are these new springs or just the ones you took off your car?
Springs can take time to settle. A few weeks to a month of daily driving OR 30 min on a road course.
If you took a full coil off, I would NOT mess with it for a few weeks and then come back and see if its down to your desired ride height.

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post #19 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-19-2015, 11:34 AM Thread Starter
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Are these new springs or just the ones you took off your car?
Springs can take time to settle. A few weeks to a month of daily driving OR 30 min on a road course.
If you took a full coil off, I would NOT mess with it for a few weeks and then come back and see if its down to your desired ride height.

-g
They were previously installed springs and the ride height is LOWER than I wanted. I was hoping they were going to settle if they were too high, now I hope they don't settle or I'll be right back to where I was.

Stock bird spring = 13 1/2

1 cut coil = 12 1/2

Lowered Mark viii spring = 11 1/2

Measurements taken out of the car.

With the original kit I could leave the upper control arm bolt in while I installed them. With the cut bird spring I had to remove it and damn near fully extend the bottom in order to get the spring in...Yet it's pretty much identical in ride height.
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post #20 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-19-2015, 12:14 PM
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I didn't realize you were intalling these springs in a MarkVIII. Do you have a spring perch in there? If not, that will take up another half-inch or so and raise the ride height back up a bit.

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post #21 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-19-2015, 01:10 PM Thread Starter
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I didn't realize you were intalling these springs in a MarkVIII. Do you have a spring perch in there? If not, that will take up another half-inch or so and raise the ride height back up a bit.
I'm using the prothane upper and lower isolators with the solid aluminum Arnott upper perch.


The swaybar end links wouldn't prevent it from extending more at certain heights, would it? I mean it does get higher when I remove my sub box so I don't think that's the issue, still doesn't explain why it stayed the same hieght with the taller spring. Idk
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post #22 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-19-2015, 01:55 PM
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Like I originally suspected..I think those springs you cut are regular old MN12 V8 springs..

There's no way to verify that though unless you use a caliper to measure them..

Even though the cut springs may still be taller than the Mark VIII springs..They're not stiff enough for the extra weight you have in the trunk..

Also the fact that you are not running any lower spring perch is going to effect the rear ride height as well..

I know you're trying to make due with what you got, but I don't think you're going to be happy with the ride height of the rear until you spend some dough..

Be it with installing lower spring perches:
Mark VIII Lower Control Arm Spring Cups.JPG


or

Adding a set of Air Lift Air Bags to compensate for the extra weight in your trunk:
Air Bags (RaceCougar).JPG


or

Installing a set of uncut Sport/SC rear coil springs..

or

A combination of all three..


The Sport/SC rear coil springs are much stiffer than standard MN12 V8 springs, and can cope with the extra weight back there better..

That's not to say just the Sport/SC rear coil springs is going to fix your issue though..







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post #23 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-19-2015, 07:46 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, it's a bummer. I'm leaving it like it is unless it lowers more.

Not looking to spend a couple hundred bucks just to get an extra half inch out of it, I'd much rather remove the box, or at least downsize instead. It's still ever so slightly higher then the front so it'll do. The most important thing is that I got the broken spring out of there.

The airlift kit looks interesting but not sure how i'd go about mounting it. Might be something I look into.

Looking back I should've just left them uncut. Oh well.

Thanks everybody for the help, it's much appreciated.

Last edited by sbcaprice305; 04-20-2015 at 02:25 PM. Reason: add info
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post #24 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-20-2015, 05:25 PM
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Q: What about tennis balls inside the rear springs?These would compress as needed and will help with ride height.

Or, to give up on spring compression altogether, I also think you could glue some hockey pucks and shove them inside the rear springs to limit compression.

The downside of the second option is that hockey pucks really don't compress much so I think you might be opening yourself up to bump oversteer... which would probably make for some "exciting" handling.

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post #25 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-21-2015, 11:28 AM Thread Starter
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Q: What about tennis balls inside the rear springs?These would compress as needed and will help with ride height.

Or, to give up on spring compression altogether, I also think you could glue some hockey pucks and shove them inside the rear springs to limit compression.

The downside of the second option is that hockey pucks really don't compress much so I think you might be opening yourself up to bump oversteer... which would probably make for some "exciting" handling.

-g
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post #26 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-21-2015, 11:18 PM
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1) You asked for a cheap solution. What's cheaper than tennis balls and or hockey pucks?
2) I loved Trapped in the Closet.
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post #27 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-22-2015, 08:51 AM Thread Starter
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1) You asked for a cheap solution. What's cheaper than tennis balls and or hockey pucks?
2) I loved Trapped in the Closet.
-g
Lol, I'm cheap but not that cheap. On the other hand I was thinking about deflating a old kickball, inserting it into the spring and the airing it up.

It could work
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post #28 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-22-2015, 10:41 AM
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All kidding aside, a kickball will not likely offer the amount of resistance you are looking for to make a measurable resistance against the weight of the car compressing the spring.

OTOH, tennis balls is actually an old school technique used in both track racing as well as offroading to add more ride height to a spring. Think about how much pressure it would take to blow out a tennis ball; its skin is very, very tough.
Just look at google:




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post #29 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-22-2015, 09:51 PM
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S4Gunn:

I'll try tennis balls in my Honda ATV first.

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post #30 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-24-2015, 09:01 AM
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I don't have the balls to try this.

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