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post #1 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-19-2015, 01:17 AM Thread Starter
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rear knuckle lower bushings

I recently purchased this bushing tool set (used), so I'm ready to get cracking on my rear rebuild.

However, I ran into this prob in my parts research: these lowers are apparently only available in poly.
If someone does offer these in rubber, please clue me in.

I'm aware of the oft-touted virtues of poly and Delrin, but I have no ambitions to turn my DD into a track star, have never had a prob with wheel hop (unless you count bouncing off potholes and debris ) and live where there are plenty of bad roads, thus I prefer to have as close to the cushy OEM ride as I can get for a reasonable cost (which precludes buying OEM knuckles, if even available).
Holy run-on sentence, Batman!

Anyway, Moogs are apparently an "improved", supposedly more robust rubber composition than OEM, but still closer to OEM than poly. The front upper and lower Moogs I installed for that end's rebuild seem to have garden-variety rubber (it's soft, anyway), so

Btw, I do have new toe compensators that I bought a while back, because I had planned to use softer bushings all around.

Why the almost complete lack of aftermarket lower knuckle bushings?
I doubt it's because OEM's were never available as separate components, because the upper one wasn't, either, according to the Ford parts catalog I'm looking at.

Last edited by Torque; 07-19-2015 at 01:23 AM.
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post #2 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-19-2015, 12:44 PM
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The moogs feel about like stock; the polys are very stiff.

Make sure the upper inner is the correct one; there were some that were made wrong; RaceCougar made a thread.

I never saw stock ones offered either; when I looked in 2005, they sent me to Advanced.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
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post #3 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-19-2015, 02:00 PM
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Rock auto doesn't have them in rubber? Find it hard to believe that all they would stock is poly for these, lol.
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post #4 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-19-2015, 03:50 PM
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Rock auto doesn't have them in rubber? Find it hard to believe that all they would stock is poly for these, lol.
There's an incredibly scary range of rubber; none of them are urethane, from what I see.

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,ca...,parttype,7532

Moog and ACDelco are about equal in my book, but the ACDelco pro are usually better.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
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post #5 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-19-2015, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torque View Post
I recently purchased this bushing tool set (used), so I'm ready to get cracking on my rear rebuild.

However, I ran into this prob in my parts research: these lowers are apparently only available in poly.
If someone does offer these in rubber, please clue me in.

I'm aware of the oft-touted virtues of poly and Delrin, but I have no ambitions to turn my DD into a track star, have never had a prob with wheel hop (unless you count bouncing off potholes and debris ) and live where there are plenty of bad roads, thus I prefer to have as close to the cushy OEM ride as I can get for a reasonable cost (which precludes buying OEM knuckles, if even available).
Holy run-on sentence, Batman!

Anyway, Moogs are apparently an "improved", supposedly more robust rubber composition than OEM, but still closer to OEM than poly. The front upper and lower Moogs I installed for that end's rebuild seem to have garden-variety rubber (it's soft, anyway), so

Btw, I do have new toe compensators that I bought a while back, because I had planned to use softer bushings all around.

Why the almost complete lack of aftermarket lower knuckle bushings?
I doubt it's because OEM's were never available as separate components, because the upper one wasn't, either, according to the Ford parts catalog I'm looking at.

Nice tool set..

For some strange..ok idiotic reason.. Ford decided the only way you could replace the Lower Knuckle Bushings is if you bought a whole new knuckle..

Then aftermarket suppliers like Moog,AC/Delco,Raybestos..etc,etc...Decided to follow suit..I suppose without a Ford piece to replicate that could be the reason??

If you want to keep a somewhat squishy ride back there..Just use Poly..That's your only choice anyways unless you get hardcore with something like Delrin..


The Rear Lower Knuckle Bushings are not available on RockAuto..






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post #6 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-19-2015, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
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I suppose without a Ford piece to replicate that could be the reason??
Maybe it involves patent/licensing and perhaps Energy Suspension was willing to invest where nobody else would.

Quote:
The Rear Lower Knuckle Bushings are not available on RockAuto..
AFAICT, the only current option is ES polys. Prothane doesn't make them, either -- at least, I didn't find them on their site. I guess it must be profitable enough for ES to bother.
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post #7 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-19-2015, 07:44 PM
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The poly bushings do Not feel squishy; they don't seem to give at all.

Definitely not like the stock ones.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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post #8 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-19-2015, 10:14 PM Thread Starter
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The poly bushings do Not feel squishy; they don't seem to give at all.
I saw your post in another thread re: gravel roads are almost impossible due to the stiffness of poly.

Do.. not.. want.

There must be something out there that belongs on some later model vehicle that's practically identical to ours, or can be slightly modded to fit. Has anyone measured our various bushings and gone hunting in parts stores for aftermarkets with the same or very similar dimensions?
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post #9 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-19-2015, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torque View Post
Has anyone measured our various bushings and gone hunting in parts stores for aftermarkets with the same or very similar dimensions?
That's what you are gonna do.
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post #10 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-19-2015, 10:44 PM Thread Starter
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Sounds like a project!
This chart might be helpful for starters.
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post #11 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-19-2015, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torque View Post
Sounds like a project!
This chart might be helpful for starters.
yeap. Just remember, C=D
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post #12 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-19-2015, 11:10 PM
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I dunno, the Cougar rides just fine on gravel roads with poly knuckle bushings and JJJJ springs

Secret is to NOT lock the bolts down until the knuckle is supporting the weight of the rear end on that side. Not fun, having the jack stand under the knuckle (and the jack JUST clearing the LCA), but it works. Or seems to.

And I get plenty of gravel roads when I take the Coug out to job sites. Sometimes the instructions have, as the way to get there, "Turn left off the dirt road ... "

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post #13 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-20-2015, 07:34 AM
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I dunno, the Cougar rides just fine on gravel roads with poly knuckle bushings and JJJJ springs

Secret is to NOT lock the bolts down until the knuckle is supporting the weight of the rear end on that side. Not fun, having the jack stand under the knuckle (and the jack JUST clearing the LCA), but it works. Or seems to.

And I get plenty of gravel roads when I take the Coug out to job sites. Sometimes the instructions have, as the way to get there, "Turn left off the dirt road ... "

RwP
My friend installed poly bushings everywhere on his old '93 Nissan truck. He made the mistake of tightening everything up while the truck was still up in the air. It is now the stiffest, worst riding vehicle I've ever ridden in; just awful.

I'm probably going to go with the delrin bushings for the rear of mine; already have the Mark VIII arms waiting for them.

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post #14 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-20-2015, 05:45 PM
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I need to change my bushings too. I was gonna try to use my ball joint tool, it's a big c frame with all different cups
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post #15 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-20-2015, 07:35 PM
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You need to be sure to provide for lubing the poly bushings; in my mark arms, I drilled them thru to the metal sleeve, and added a zerk fitting.

They squeak like crazy if they go dry, lol.


Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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post #16 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-29-2015, 02:36 PM Thread Starter
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sockets

What sockets do I need for the rear?

I bought a 30mm deep well back when I was doing the front strut rods, and I will have a new 27mm deep coming in soon (for the bushing tool). I have old Craftsman deep well kits SAE & metric (up to 19mm) and shallow 21 & 22. On 2nd thought, the 21 may be a deep well, hafta check that.

Any others I need for a complete rebuild on my '96?
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post #17 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-29-2015, 03:18 PM
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"the rear" can mean many things for different people. Exactly what will you be doing/replacing?
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post #18 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-29-2015, 04:26 PM Thread Starter
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Well, I had hoped to get away with just replacing the 6 bushings per side max, assuming I find that my subframe bushings are in decent shape -- if they aren't, then I'm in trouble, so I'll check that before I start yanking parts.
I had not planned on replacing the differential hanger/mount unless absolutely necessary.

I haven't yet closely examined everything back there and at the moment only know for certain that the inner upper bushings are gone -- knocking noises, then verified a while back with car lifted and pulling/pushing on wheel; camber at rest is also very negative on both sides.

I just wanted to be sure I had the tools on hand for pretty much any circumstance I may run into after I get the rear on stands.
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post #19 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-30-2015, 10:02 PM Thread Starter
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Lightbulb socket specs

I went under the car today and ascertained the various socket/wrench sizes required for rear end bushing replacement. It seemed there's room for deep well sockets at most, if not all, locations. Here they are:

upper control arm to subframe:
nut = 15mm
bolt head = 18mm

knuckle upper:
nut = 21mm
bolt = 18mm

knuckle lower:
nuts = 21mm
bolts = 18mm

lower control arm to frame (front pivot):
cap nut = 40.5-40.6mm (via calipers)
bolt = 21mm

lower control arm to frame (rear):
nut = 24mm
bolt = 21mm

toe compensator link to lower control arm (vertical):
nut = 21mm
bolt = 18mm

subframe to unibody:
bolts = 15mm

differential hanger & mounts (vertical):
nuts = 21mm
bolts = ?? (didn't check)

sway bar:
bolts = 13mm

sway bar link:
upper nut = 15mm
lower nut = 13mm
flag bolt (no socket needed)

Last edited by Torque; 08-07-2015 at 07:21 PM.
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post #20 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-31-2015, 07:30 AM
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Torque's post should be a sticky!

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post #21 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-31-2015, 07:50 AM
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Usually I just keep the 1/2" impact sockets close by when I'm working on the suspension..

I don't know about it being Sticky worthy, but I appreciate you posting that Torque..

One other thing you have to remember is..Those nuts,bolts, and socket specs are for his particular year of car..Might as well say 93-97 MN12..

I'm sure some of the nuts,bolts specs are different for the early 89-92 MN12..Since parts did change through the years..Especially in 93..

If I don't post the nuts,bolts specs for the early 89-92 MN12..Maybe you could Ralph??..





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post #22 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-31-2015, 08:53 AM
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If I don't post the nuts,bolts specs for the early 89-92 MN12..Maybe you could Ralph??..





Rayo..
Dunno, the "No, not that one, the OTHER one!" doesn't work for a sticky

I just drag the whole set under there and use whatever fits. My methods don't work for everyone, though.

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post #23 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-31-2015, 04:58 PM Thread Starter
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I agree it isn't sticky-worthy in and of itself, since it's apparently not all-inclusive (and I didn't list the front end). But, I maybe could have put it in the torque settings sticky, right after the last post there (from yours truly)...

Since I was going to get dirty under there anyway, I figured I may as well check 'em all out and hopefully the info would prove useful to those who don't already have the larger socket/wrench sizes -- at least for the relevant year models.
The only size I lack is the 38mm beast (measured with caliper), but now have it on order (1/2" impact axle nut socket).

There's a 1990-2001 Ford Master Parts Catalog fiche that I'm tempted to buy, but I don't have it yet. If someone has the catalog(s) for all years, maybe they could check to see which [base?] part numbers differ, thus which on my list don't apply to earlier years, and post their findings. If I get the aforementioned catalog and nobody beats me to it, I might be persuaded to investigate this and check the front end ones when I have spare time.

I haven't dropped the subframe, but from what I could tell visually and tactually, those bushings (Ford likes to call them insulators ) seem in good shape, as do the lower knuckle ones.
I'll know more after disassembly, of course, but right now it looks like this job is a go.
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post #24 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-01-2015, 05:25 AM
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But, I maybe could have put it in the torque settings sticky, right after the last post there (from yours truly)...
Add it, or I can move it!

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post #25 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-01-2015, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torque View Post
The only size I lack is the 38mm beast (measured with caliper), but now have it on order (1/2" impact axle nut socket).
No one has that, lol. I just use a large crescent wrench and slip a tube over the end and there's my leverage. great for the front strut rod nuts that don't allow normal deep well sockets due to the length of the threaded stud.

With some pics I could see it being sticky worthy, if we work together and put torque values in there. We can combine the info from the torque spec sticky with this info; I can add text to the pics with the added info.

Last edited by guitar maestro; 08-01-2015 at 11:10 PM.
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post #26 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-02-2015, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by guitar maestro View Post
No one has that, lol. I just use a large crescent wrench and slip a tube over the end and there's my leverage. great for the front strut rod nuts that don't allow normal deep well sockets due to the length of the threaded stud.

With some pics I could see it being sticky worthy, if we work together and put torque values in there. We can combine the info from the torque spec sticky with this info; I can add text to the pics with the added info.
I always wondered what size nut that was. I even asked and nobody answered awhile back. I am a plumber so I always used my big pipe wrench on it. My biggest socket I have is 36mm. I am gonna go ahead and get the 38mm
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post #27 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-02-2015, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1995 cougar xr7 View Post
I always wondered what size nut that was. I even asked and nobody answered awhile back. I am a plumber so I always used my big pipe wrench on it. My biggest socket I have is 36mm. I am gonna go ahead and get the 38mm
Or just order a couple of 10.9 grade M16x2.0 nuts/washers and replace the oem nut after taking it off with the pipe wrench.
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post #28 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-02-2015, 09:58 PM Thread Starter
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While I'm elbow deep in the arms (uhh), I might pull one of the lower knuckle bushings, even if they all look good (not that they necessarily will upon closer examination). I'm still curious about possibly finding a good match in rubber for these.

If I had the 1)time 2)incentive 3)guts, I'd pull subframe bushings and try to find matches in rubber for those as well. I don't suppose anyone bothered to check the dimensions of their new OEM replacements that they bought when they were still available. (??)

My 38mm socket should get here in the next 3-5 days. I'll let ya know how well it fits. I recommend not making purchases based on my cap nut measurement until there is actual socket-on confirmation from me or someone else. Also, this should stay out of stickies until there is confirmation.
All the other specs are correct, verified with sockets, but the 38mm? I was working by feel from the side of the vehicle (behind the tires) with car down, so if my caliper lost lock/slipped during retrieval before my eyes saw it...
I measured twice, but the same error could have happened twice, too. I just don't want to waste anyone's time/money if I was wrong. I'll let ya know unless someone beats me to it.

Or, you could go the nut/washer route as suggested earlier.
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post #29 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-05-2015, 05:30 PM
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Well I pulled this nut today to replace the toe links and I hate to tell you it's not a 38mm. In an old thread on here I found a reference to 40mm but could not find one to verify. Using a 14" crescent wrench with a gauge it measured 1 5/8". I took the nut to the part store and found that a 1 5/8 will fit it ( though a little loose). Being a 3/4 drive socket I decided to skip the expense. I think I'll try and order a 40mm and see.

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post #30 of 42 (permalink) Old 08-05-2015, 09:29 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by steamer471 View Post
Using a 14" crescent wrench with a gauge it measured 1 5/8".
That's the first thing I did and got 40mm. Then I went back with the caliper and got 38mm as I snugged it down nice 'n tight.. twice..
Socket will be here Friday. I won't start cursing myself at least until then.
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