My Second Mod: Suspension Rebuild - Page 10 - TCCoA Forums
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post #271 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 11:19 AM Thread Starter
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Not even tack welds for a nut?

I'd definitely give this a shot myself if I knew how to weld.

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post #272 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 11:32 AM
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I think you’re onto something with using the MN12 body, but I think the both existing ends of the Supra/SC shock should be used.

I just made this crude doodle from my iPad. If you hollowed out the MN12 shock so it’s a completely completely straight through tube with nothing more than a perch and either bent out or welded on new lower mounts to go beside the Lexus lower mount, you could use the lower bolt to retain both the Supra/SC shock from the inside and the MN12 perch from the outside
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post #273 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 11:34 AM
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Yes, excellent research. I think we all figured it wouldn't be a direct fit, but why not hope?! To me the Bilstein is more intriguing because the mount is not welded on. Question; is the time narrow enough to slide inside of a stock MN12 shock body? I'm thinking cut the bottom off and use it as an insert. Could even slit the sides on a stock one to force it in then carefully weld it in place. I can't weld either. Was never around one to try growing up. So I'd need help there too...
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post #274 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 11:39 AM
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XR7 has the idea...I think the forks on the MN12 body are wide enough to go around the forks on the Bilstein. Weld the forks together and go? That way you don't hear the tube up, right? Seems plausible if the rebound rates work.
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post #275 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 11:50 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
I think you’re onto something with using the MN12 body, but I think the both existing ends of the Supra/SC shock should be used.

I just made this crude doodle from my iPad. If you hollowed out the MN12 shock so it’s a completely completely straight through tube with nothing more than a perch and either bent out or welded on new lower mounts to go beside the Lexus lower mount, you could use the lower bolt to retain both the Supra/SC shock from the inside and the MN12 perch from the outside
I see your drawing, and raise you mine!

This is what I was talking about. As you can see with mine, the forks are cut off and in red is the welded (tack welded) nut where a bolt would attach to.

If I'm understanding yours right, your idea would require a little bit more welding than mine and raising any risks involved with welding anything to the shock that you've already brought up. We can give both a try and see what ends up working better.
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post #276 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 11:51 AM
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The way I install shocks on these you wouldn’t even need to weld the forks together, the bolt will hold them together, but if you put the spring/shocks together as an assembly you’d want to secure them together independent of the main bolt.


Edit: The welding mine may or may not require would only be needed on the cut up MN12 tube, NOT the Toyota shock, and there’s a possibility the stock lower forks could work, requiring no welding. I don’t have a welder, nor do I intend to purchase or learn to use one so I can upgrade shocks, so any idea I’m coming up with keeps it to a minimum and low on the complexity/risk scale.

-Matt

Last edited by XR7-4.6; 08-11-2019 at 11:58 AM.
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post #277 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 12:22 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
Quote:
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I see your drawing, and raise you mine!

This is what I was talking about. As you can see with mine, the forks are cut off and in red is the welded (tack welded) nut where a bolt would attach to.

If I'm understanding yours right, your idea would require a little bit more welding than mine and raising any risks involved with welding anything to the shock that you've already brought up. We can give both a try and see what ends up working better.
The way I install shocks on these you wouldn’t even need to weld the forks together, the bolt will hold them together, but if you put the spring/shocks together as an assembly you’d want to secure them together independent of the main bolt.


Edit: The welding mine may or may not require would only be needed on the cut up MN12 tube, NOT the Toyota shock, and there’s a possibility the stock lower forks could work, requiring no welding. I don’t have a welder, nor do I intend to purchase or learn to use one so I can upgrade shocks, so any idea I’m coming up with keeps it to a minimum and low on the complexity/risk scale.
OK. I understand now your setup now @XR7-4.6 .

In this situation then, the mounting point (bushing) of the LCA would need to be shaved off about 1/8" so that the Lexus shock would fit. This raises the question if creating heat on the bushing would affect the integrity of the bushing. I don't see why not, but it's a question, nonetheless. Or as you said, bend out the Lexus fork a little bit so that it could fit not causing any potential heat related issues to the bushing. It all should fit within the MN12 shock forks regardless.

I could try it. The two shocks I have (pictured in my posts) are spares I picked up from the junk yard a few months back. Then I'd still have the two on the car itself, lol.

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post #278 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-12-2019, 02:35 PM
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On the LCA fitment issue, I'd probably bend the fork slightly to get that extra 1/8" vs trying to grind down the UCA bushing. Grinding the LCA bushing tube will just introduce heat and degrade your lower bushing. It's rubber.


1) It also looks like you will need to modify or make a custom adapter washer/adapter for the MN12 shock top to fit the SC300 shaft. That will either be a washer and a metal tube (Randy/MaddMartigan's v1 design) or to weld in a uniball to the shock top like we did with the rev 2 design.
2) Once you have a shock top that will fit the SC300 shaft, you can test fit a stock spring to see if the higher shock base will raise up the nose of the car significantly -- even if you are compressing the spring down MORE to fit the MN12 shock top mount. Your cutting the spring you decide to install would solve the issue.
3) Another way to solve this issue is to see if theres a SC300 coilover kit you want to try. The coilovers lower the car by lowering the spring perch -- exactly what you want to do.

Non of these issues are unsurmountable.
Get to work and let us know how it goes.

One final note: it does take a little bit for suspension to settle so if you swap springs, you might need to wait a little bit or drive it around a little bit before you determine the final ride height.
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post #279 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-12-2019, 03:18 PM
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Cutting sport springs that far would be ridiculous; that would be an 800lb rate, at least, lol.

Cutting the stock V6 or V8 springs might make them up to sport level; I'd have to calculate it out.

All of the stock spring rates are in the thread where I discussed it with Duffy Floyd and DLF. I have a link saved here somewhere.

If the spring is too strong, it will waste the shock in quick order.

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post #280 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-12-2019, 04:23 PM
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Would the Vogtland 1.6" drop spring still be too tall?

If a coilover setup for the SC fits like we hope, I'd be all over that.
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post #281 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-12-2019, 05:41 PM Thread Starter
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Generally speaking, we don't want any welding anywhere, right? Or can welding happen on parts that don't touch the body? For example, the spring perch, forks themselves, and piston?

Another idea I'm having right now is to perhaps cut just a portion of the SC300 fork and weld the remaining bits to our stock fork. Or even, just cutting off most of one fork, leaving the other in tact, and just making a tack weld on what's left of the other fork to the body of our stock fork. That way there's a bolt going through one of the SC300 forks and a tack weld to maintain strength to the car.

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On the LCA fitment issue, I'd probably bend the fork slightly to get that extra 1/8" vs trying to grind down the UCA bushing. Grinding the LCA bushing tube will just introduce heat and degrade your lower bushing. It's rubber.


1) It also looks like you will need to modify or make a custom adapter washer/adapter for the MN12 shock top to fit the SC300 shaft. That will either be a washer and a metal tube (Randy/MaddMartigan's v1 design) or to weld in a uniball to the shock top like we did with the rev 2 design.
2) Once you have a shock top that will fit the SC300 shaft, you can test fit a stock spring to see if the higher shock base will raise up the nose of the car significantly -- even if you are compressing the spring down MORE to fit the MN12 shock top mount. Your cutting the spring you decide to install would solve the issue.
3) Another way to solve this issue is to see if theres a SC300 coilover kit you want to try. The coilovers lower the car by lowering the spring perch -- exactly what you want to do.

Non of these issues are unsurmountable.
Get to work and let us know how it goes.

One final note: it does take a little bit for suspension to settle so if you swap springs, you might need to wait a little bit or drive it around a little bit before you determine the final ride height.
1. I have no problem modifying the shock mount.

2. If we are manage to fit the SC300 shock into our MN12 shock body, this wouldn't be an issue. This is the end goal still. Unless you have a different idea, that is.

3. It's possible. I'd have to look into.

As for the LCA fitment issue, I don't even know if the fork will go down far enough to make it to the hole for it to bolt up.

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Originally Posted by Djose13 View Post
Would the Vogtland 1.6" drop spring still be too tall?

If a coilover setup for the SC fits like we hope, I'd be all over that.
The 1.6" Vogtlands are what I have pictured. So yes, they're still too tall.

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post #282 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-12-2019, 06:10 PM
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That would probably be fine, the welding I’d avoid would be any place where you can melt an internal seal or burn through, releasing the gas charge. Welding to metal welded to it is much lower risk with good heat control.

I do question though, when you’re modifying it to this degree, is the benefit of using them even there anymore? It still remains to be seen whether or not a shock designed for the rear of a lighter car with a forward weight bias will be any stiffer than any available shock we can easily get. I’ve seen published spring rates (which should theoretically correspond to the shock’s damping ability) range as low as 250lb/in and as high as 500ish. To me 100% of the viability in these shocks are in the lower mount, so lopping any bit of it off really clashes with my sensibilities.

-Matt
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post #283 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-13-2019, 10:17 AM Thread Starter
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So as I'm searching various vendors (Shock Warehouse, Summit, Andy's Auto Sport, etc.) I'm finding out that their selection of shocks available for the SC300 / SC400 / Supra is becoming limited. Search results seem to be better under the Supra category, but still limited. The Bilstein units with removable spring perch seem to be on backorder but Koni units are still available. While there are still performance options available for the SC300 / Supra chassis, namely KYB AGX and Tokico Illumina, they are specific to that platform. However, the Koni units appear to have the same removable spring perch as the Bilstein units and seem to be available, which is what we desire.

This being said though, I can foresee in the near future that the SC300 / Supra units will also be difficult obtain making us go through this process all over again. Ideally, we need to find a shock from a newer vehicle so that we don't come across this situation for some time to come.

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post #284 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-13-2019, 10:43 AM
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MKIV Supras are relatively rare but they have a very strong and healthy following(seen what they’ve been selling for lately?) so backorders and limited stock may be the norm but they have a strong prospect of long term availability unlike the 3000GT, which is about as much of a 90s obscurity as our MN12s

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post #285 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-13-2019, 10:58 AM Thread Starter
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The funny thing about this search on the SC300 is that the performance PNs don't show up for the Lexus platform but do show up for the Supra even though it's the same unit...

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post #286 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-13-2019, 11:15 AM
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As a Cougar owner, I can sympathize

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post #287 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-13-2019, 11:32 PM Thread Starter
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So I ran across this on eBay just now...

I'm tempted, but I don't exactly have $332+ tax ($360) in me right now.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F233285562400

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post #288 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 04:27 AM
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Try a bid on these, 5 days left. Definitely want to see what they end up going for!

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post #289 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 09:03 AM
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You could try this. Trying to decide if I am willing to purchase for a place i don't know... https://www.ajusa.com/bilstein-b6-pe...34-050224.html
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post #290 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 11:30 AM
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You could try this. Trying to decide if I am willing to purchase for a place i don't know... https://www.ajusa.com/bilstein-b6-pe...34-050224.html
Just use a credit card. If they ship, great. If the deal goes south, its not your money (it's BofA/Citibank/etc).
If you are really worried, just don't use a card that you already have setup for automatic billing (so if things do go wrong, you don't need to resetup a bunch of website).

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post #291 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 12:44 PM Thread Starter
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Try a bid on these, 5 days left. Definitely want to see what they end up going for!



Joe
Yeah, I saw them first on the TCCOA FB page. They're $500 as of this morning.

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post #292 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 12:50 PM
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Someone seems to have a really high max bid judging by the bid history.

-Matt
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post #293 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 04:11 PM
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This shit always happens when I don't have any free cash, lol.

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post #294 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 05:24 PM Thread Starter
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So the Mitsubishi Bilstein inserts seem to be available now. I just got off the phone with the vendor, AJ-USA and they have informed me that they have some inventory available of these units. They also stated that there is a short production run from Bilstein for the 35-050224 units but will be going back on backorder in short time.

That being said, I'm going to be purchasing a set of these when I get home tonight. Me doing so though, I know will close a potential performance solution that was getting looked into right now for our platform.

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post #295 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 06:29 PM
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Browsing quick-like on facebook, and noticed a comment regarding the uncanny similarity between the MN12 and the BA/BF/FG Falcon front suspension....

THEY STILL MAKE COILOVERS FOR FALCONS!

If anyone is willing to do the research/science, this may lead to something, no? (One can hope....)

Here's the post:
https://tinyurl.com/y2mjbz3e
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post #296 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 06:57 PM
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I had actually heard they were done by the same engineering team. There’s some good possibility they’d fit and work very well - Australia tends to make suspensions HD in all applications, and shocks from a FPV or XR8 should be quite stiff on our chassis. Only issue would be cost shipping time and getting first hand measurements.
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post #297 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 07:09 PM
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That looks really nice!

It would be cool if we could find some with remote reservoirs that fit; I do see a bit of fade on 116 sometimes in the summer.

Who's going to order the first set from AU?


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Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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post #298 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 07:18 PM
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Oh Man! This is my 10,000th post!!
Woo Hoo!
Happy 10,000
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post #299 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 07:24 PM
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post #300 of 363 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 07:26 PM
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Looking at BA/BF/FG/XR front shocks, stock for stock they look almost identical save for the different size spring perch (smaller on the Falcon).... but one would need to measure the rest to be sure, most importantly the top hat.

Still trying to find some posted measurements
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