My Second Mod: Suspension Rebuild - Page 7 - TCCoA Forums
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post #181 of 195 (permalink) Old 04-28-2019, 01:30 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
Anyway; I bought 3" thick 3" diameter aluminum pucks, and drilled 3/8" holes in them to lighten them more, drilled and threaded the center for a 5/8" bolt, and bolted them in.

(I'll loan the tap to well known members. I also have the tap for the additional temp sensor for PI intakes.)

I've had No issues whatsoever from those pucks.

Notes: They don't need to be 3" thick, they need to be slightly thicker than the poly insulators, tho, or they walk.
Would you say that 1/8" thicker than the insulator would be perfect? Or should it be slightly thicker than that still? If so, how much thicker should it be than the insulators?

Looking at the pic I took of my LCAs, I see that the bolt would be going through the bottom upwards based on what you're saying here. How big of washers did you use? What material did you use for the washer(s)? Or did you use a bolt with a really wide head?

What about corrosion? Can you mix steel and aluminum together and and not worry about corrosion or other metal to metal degradation. I'm thinking of something similar to how copper degrades galvanized steel if they're both touching each other in home plumbing? Or are the bolts you used plated with Zinc or something?

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Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RalphP View Post
Other possibility: Beat the crap out of a old toe compensator to get the spherical bushing out, use that for the spacer.

Even cheaper since you'll be pulling an old toe comp out.

Or just put a new toe comp in.

RwP
I used the Toe compensators; the rear end feels too loose without them, even with poly.

GM said he didn't use them, IIRC; but I definitely needed them, IMHO.

There's still a slight gap.

Also, I needed 16" wheels to clear; one side rubbed a bolt.
After having read both here on TCCoA and the FB TCCoA page that doing the toe compensator delete mod is a hit or miss, I've decided to play it safe and buy new toe compensators just to avoid any possible issues.
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'97 Bird, "Pearl": L/R 2.5in Magnaflow Hi-Flow CATs | PI Intake & PI Cams | Suspension Rebuild

'13 Taurus, "The Bull": 3.5L Goodness

'00 2dr v6 Accord, "Dirty Girl": Magnaflow Hi-Flow CAT | Greddy SP2 CAT-Back | Eibach ProKit springs | Eibach F/R Sway Bars | KYB-GR2 struts
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post #182 of 195 (permalink) Old 04-28-2019, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by CDsDontBurn View Post
The thing that confuses me about the perches is that @Irv 's post above Grog's does not seem to be secured to the LCA. Is it possible for the perch to just "sit there" in the LCA cup?
The DLF-designed ones I have feature a nub on the bottom that's the ID width of the hole in the bottom of the LCA, so it stays centered without shifting around. It's not secured by anything other than the compression of the spring. They look and function the same as SCP's aluminum version but they're made of UHMW polyethylene. From what I can tell, SCP just copied Doug Fraleigh's design.

Grog's version basically just centers the spring. It presumably doesn't have a perch for the spring isolator. The isolator would be centered on the bottom of the LCA by the bolted-down aluminum cylinder.

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Last edited by Irv; 04-28-2019 at 03:39 PM.
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post #183 of 195 (permalink) Old 04-28-2019, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDsDontBurn View Post
Would you say that 1/8" thicker than the insulator would be perfect? Or should it be slightly thicker than that still? If so, how much thicker should it be than the insulators?
1/8" is probably fine; sport springs are pressing down at about 500lbs/in of compression, so they are not moving around easily. I'm probably just paranoid, but it makes me feel better on the curvys.

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Originally Posted by CDsDontBurn View Post
Looking at the pic I took of my LCAs, I see that the bolt would be going through the bottom upwards based on what you're saying here. How big of washers did you use? What material did you use for the washer(s)? Or did you use a bolt with a really wide head?
Yes, from the bottom, thru the hole.
I have pix, but I'll be damned if I can find them.
I need to reboot my server; it's not serving, lol.
I used a washer and lockwasher, with the Thick washer big enough to overlap the hole ~1/4".
I'll post up the McMaster partnumbers I bought when I find the pix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDsDontBurn View Post
What about corrosion? Can you mix steel and aluminum together and and not worry about corrosion or other metal to metal degradation. I'm thinking of something similar to how copper degrades galvanized steel if they're both touching each other in home plumbing? Or are the bolts you used plated with Zinc or something?
The reason I wanted to use aluminum bolts was based on this. That was really funny, don't bother doing that. The spring is WAY stronger than the shear on the Al bolts.

As long as the lockwasher keeps everything 'galvanically connected', it won't rust.
The bolts I bought do have a yellow coating; I would say it's chromate, but I doubt it, chromate is banned in a lot of places, CA being one, IIRC.

Do not use stainless, as stainless rusts Everything else. And it's weaker.

Paint the parts before, then paint the gouges the lockwasher leaves, and it should last forever.

I did my LCA's in transparent blue, they look really cool. But the only people that have seen them are either here, when the pix were up, or the few people that have had my car on a lift, lol.
The guys that did my dual exhaust were impressed.

Oh, and to clean the aluminum LCAs, get some "Etching Mag Cleaner" for aluminum wheels, pull the bushings, and on a hot sunny day spray them down, use a brush to scrub it, give it 15 minutes, rinse a repeat a couple of times, then they'll be pristine.

Public safety notice:
Be careful with mag cleaner around the kids.
It's a pretty nasty mix of acids, sometimes with some HF, so gloves and goggles are important.
HF doesn't leave scars, but it eats calcium, which your heart needs to beat; that's the real problem with it.
HF is HydroFloric Acid, it eats glass, bone, and almost everything else you care about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDsDontBurn View Post
After having read both here on TCCoA and the FB TCCoA page that doing the toe compensator delete mod is a hit or miss, I've decided to play it safe and buy new toe compensators just to avoid any possible issues.
Lazarus is non-typical; it was totaled by being hit in the right rear QP, then frame straightened, restored, and has been beaten on heavily ever since, so the rear mounts may be bent from what you guys see. IDK.
Hell, I broke three wheels on that car, including the RR one that rubbed after the swap, thinking about it. (Stuck throttle)

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
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Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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post #184 of 195 (permalink) Old 04-28-2019, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
Are you using 15" wheels?

I thought the og wheels would work, but it rubs.
No, I have 19x9” Mustang wheels. If you’re modding the suspension only to run 15x7s you’re wasting your time IMO

-Matt
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post #185 of 195 (permalink) Old 04-28-2019, 06:42 PM Thread Starter
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Has anyone considered insert options for the 2nd Gen Nissan 300zx? Sure it's a small market like the Mitsubishi 3000GT, but it's a potential option if we can make something work. Right?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Irv View Post
The DLF-designed ones I have feature a nub on the bottom that's the ID width of the hole in the bottom of the LCA, so it stays centered without shifting around. It's not secured by anything other than the compression of the spring. They look and function the same as SCP's aluminum version but they're made of UHMW polyethylene. From what I can tell, SCP just copied Doug Fraleigh's design.

Grog's version basically just centers the spring. It presumably doesn't have a perch for the spring isolator. The isolator would be centered on the bottom of the LCA by the bolted-down aluminum cylinder.
Having taken a gander over on SCP's website just now, I see what you mean about having the nub. I also see that they have a bit of a "plate" for the isolator to sit on. For some reason I thought it was just a solid piece through and through with a nub at the bottom of it, but after seeing the pictures of it on SCP's website, I see it has a plate.

Speaking of SCP's website, how about SCP's pricing too? Holy price gouging batman!

And he has one (1) front Tokico Blue strut left. Remember about that price gouging I just mentioned? Yea. That ONE Tokico Blue he has is going for a "mere" $255.99. I remember when these were available not that long ago that they were going anywhere from $95 - $120 each depending on the vendor. SCP has always had these at a highly inflated price even when they were widely available.

If these were available still, and considering how unobtainium even the Bilsteins are these days, I'd happily jump on a set of Tokico Blues at this point in the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
1/8" is probably fine; sport springs are pressing down at about 500lbs/in of compression, so they are not moving around easily. I'm probably just paranoid, but it makes me feel better on the curvys.
Yes, from the bottom, thru the hole.
I have pix, but I'll be damned if I can find them.
I need to reboot my server; it's not serving, lol.
I used a washer and lockwasher, with the Thick washer big enough to overlap the hole ~1/4".
I'll post up the McMaster partnumbers I bought when I find the pix.[/quote]

Well, the fact that the DLF variant has the nub at the bottom probably means something, so securing them from the bottom is probably a good idea still. Or if McMaster can make it with a nub at the bottom for us, then we'd have an ubber cheap part to use compared to the SCP variant .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
The reason I wanted to use aluminum bolts was based on this. That was really funny, don't bother doing that. The spring is WAY stronger than the shear on the Al bolts.

As long as the lockwasher keeps everything 'galvanically connected', it won't rust.
The bolts I bought do have a yellow coating; I would say it's chromate, but I doubt it, chromate is banned in a lot of places, CA being one, IIRC.

Do not use stainless, as stainless rusts Everything else. And it's weaker.
Well, I guess someone here who knows about metallurgy should chime in. I'm sure steel would be fine to mix aluminum with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
Paint the parts before, then paint the gouges the lockwasher leaves, and it should last forever.

I did my LCA's in transparent blue, they look really cool. But the only people that have seen them are either here, when the pix were up, or the few people that have had my car on a lift, lol.
The guys that did my dual exhaust were impressed.
I wasn't planning on painting the LCAs. If anything, I was going to just spray them with clear paint after having cleaned them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
Oh, and to clean the aluminum LCAs, get some "Etching Mag Cleaner" for aluminum wheels, pull the bushings, and on a hot sunny day spray them down, use a brush to scrub it, give it 15 minutes, rinse a repeat a couple of times, then they'll be pristine.

Public safety notice:
Be careful with mag cleaner around the kids.
It's a pretty nasty mix of acids, sometimes with some HF, so gloves and goggles are important.
HF doesn't leave scars, but it eats calcium, which your heart needs to beat; that's the real problem with it.
HF is HydroFloric Acid, it eats glass, bone, and almost everything else you care about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid
I was going to use the same stuff I cleaned the engine when I was doing the PI Cam & Intake swap. Brake cleaner and gasoline.

I have a friend who has a transmission shop. I'm tempted to ask him if I could use his sand blasting machine as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
Lazarus is non-typical; it was totaled by being hit in the right rear QP, then frame straightened, restored, and has been beaten on heavily ever since, so the rear mounts may be bent from what you guys see. IDK.
Hell, I broke three wheels on that car, including the RR one that rubbed after the swap, thinking about it. (Stuck throttle)
Well, that would be reason enough for the toe-compensator delete mod to work for you. Even after getting straightened out it may be off "just" and it would be enough for it work. Then again, IDK. I'm not a body guy

'97 Bird, "Pearl": L/R 2.5in Magnaflow Hi-Flow CATs | PI Intake & PI Cams | Suspension Rebuild

'13 Taurus, "The Bull": 3.5L Goodness

'00 2dr v6 Accord, "Dirty Girl": Magnaflow Hi-Flow CAT | Greddy SP2 CAT-Back | Eibach ProKit springs | Eibach F/R Sway Bars | KYB-GR2 struts
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post #186 of 195 (permalink) Old 04-28-2019, 06:54 PM
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I agree with what you said; but Clear paint is still paint, it will work fine.

The mag cleaner will remove stuff the brake parts cleaner wont; it will remove ALL organic materials, leaving bright aluminum, and it's easier/cheaper than sandblasting.

BTW, don't SANDblast aluminum, use Baking soda. Whoever you would take them to should already know this. and the residue washes off with water.


I did my 4v valvecovers, and that paint is never coming off.

As far as mixing metals, there's a table for galvanic corrosion, the further away they are on the table, the worse it is.

Stainless, titanium, and beryllium are the ones you worry about.
Beryllium isn't much of a problem; you'll never see it, most likely, unless it's a tonearm on a turntable.
If you breathe Be dust, you die.

Steel vs aluminum, just make sure to use a cutting lockwasher, problem solved.
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Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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post #187 of 195 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 01:05 PM Thread Starter
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Relating to my cleaning of parts, see THIS thread.

As for my inserts. I just checked and it's been pushed back another month as I expected it to be. New "expected delivery" is set for June 7. I now know that this is a fallacy.

'97 Bird, "Pearl": L/R 2.5in Magnaflow Hi-Flow CATs | PI Intake & PI Cams | Suspension Rebuild

'13 Taurus, "The Bull": 3.5L Goodness

'00 2dr v6 Accord, "Dirty Girl": Magnaflow Hi-Flow CAT | Greddy SP2 CAT-Back | Eibach ProKit springs | Eibach F/R Sway Bars | KYB-GR2 struts
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post #188 of 195 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDsDontBurn View Post

As for my inserts. I just checked and it's been pushed back another month as I expected it to be. New "expected delivery" is set for June 7. I now know that this is a fallacy.
I learned this fallacy at a tender young age from this

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post #189 of 195 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 07:50 PM Thread Starter
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Update:

Summit sent me an email earlier today informing me that they're cancelling my order of the Bilstein inserts.

This hurts. I didn't mind waiting. I'm basically at the point where I may just break down and get KYB Excel-G units now that even the Tokico Blues aren't available either. If another batch of those are made again, I'll definitely not hesitate and jump on those though. As for making a custom application, I still don't know what other inserts from what other suspension company for what other vehicle platform would work for us. I know I'm not the only one looking for performance related option that won't break the bank (QA-1 units from SCP).

I'm also working on sourcing parts the last few bits for my other project, so the suspension project can still wait a little longer, lol. In reality, I know I won't work on anything on my car until I have all the parts I need for both projects. The one exception may be the front struts if I don't have anything acquired by that point in time.
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'97 Bird, "Pearl": L/R 2.5in Magnaflow Hi-Flow CATs | PI Intake & PI Cams | Suspension Rebuild

'13 Taurus, "The Bull": 3.5L Goodness

'00 2dr v6 Accord, "Dirty Girl": Magnaflow Hi-Flow CAT | Greddy SP2 CAT-Back | Eibach ProKit springs | Eibach F/R Sway Bars | KYB-GR2 struts
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post #190 of 195 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 02:09 AM
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I have to admit this isn't a surprise, at this point.

Mitsu's are old now, like our cars.

What we need is to identify another car sufficiently similar to our weight and balance that is newer and still has inserts available.

The Koni Race inserts are an option, even tho they don't apparently last in Lemons setups very long.

I hope my driving isn't quite that hard, but at less than $250 each, they're still cheaper than the QA-1 setups.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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post #191 of 195 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 09:36 AM Thread Starter
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What is the PN on those Koni's again? What vehicle platform is it for?

And at $250/ea, it's a bummer that they don't last as long. I'm pretty sure that with my driving style / type of driving I'll be doing, I'll be going through them frequently as well....

'97 Bird, "Pearl": L/R 2.5in Magnaflow Hi-Flow CATs | PI Intake & PI Cams | Suspension Rebuild

'13 Taurus, "The Bull": 3.5L Goodness

'00 2dr v6 Accord, "Dirty Girl": Magnaflow Hi-Flow CAT | Greddy SP2 CAT-Back | Eibach ProKit springs | Eibach F/R Sway Bars | KYB-GR2 struts
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post #192 of 195 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 10:08 AM
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They're for BMW's; the partnumber is above in this thread, as well as the Race inserts'.

I searched, everything in here now, lol.

The drag with the race inserts is they need a threaded collar to hold them together against spring pressure.

What about SUV's?

We should be able to find an SUV with similar travel specs, that use inserts, and are rated for 4000lbs+.

Heavier means stiffer, right?


MM, you said you had an Idea, but didn't expound on it; care to share the thoughts you had?
If I have to hand someone $X00 extra for shocks, I'd hand it to you, lol.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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post #193 of 195 (permalink) Old 06-03-2019, 11:53 PM Thread Starter
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So I've been working on this over the last few days. It's a list of sports / sports inspired / sports derived cars that I could think of off the top of my head. I feel these may have a large enough aftermarket support base which may have inserts we could use on our MN12 platform.

If there are any other cars that can be added to this list, please let me know and I'll add them.

The next phase of this list would be to compile such a list with body and strut dimensions and compare it with the inside diameter strut dimensions along with the fully extended dimensions of our OE strut. This part, I'll need to know numbers for in order for me to research this phase.
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'97 Bird, "Pearl": L/R 2.5in Magnaflow Hi-Flow CATs | PI Intake & PI Cams | Suspension Rebuild

'13 Taurus, "The Bull": 3.5L Goodness

'00 2dr v6 Accord, "Dirty Girl": Magnaflow Hi-Flow CAT | Greddy SP2 CAT-Back | Eibach ProKit springs | Eibach F/R Sway Bars | KYB-GR2 struts
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post #194 of 195 (permalink) Old 06-04-2019, 12:49 AM
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Many of the cars on that list don’t have replaceable inserts but actual shock/strut assemblies. Unless you plan to lop off the mounts and weld the MN12 ones to them(not a good idea) many won’t work. It’s a double edged sword with cars with a large aftermarket, the aftermarket is strong enough or there is so much range in application(like the Fox platform), application specific assemblies are favorable to make over semi-universal inserts.

-Matt
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post #195 of 195 (permalink) Old 06-04-2019, 09:27 AM Thread Starter
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Right, the idea was to find one that has an aftermarket insert available to be used in the same fashion as the Mitsubishi 3000GT insert was used for us.

'97 Bird, "Pearl": L/R 2.5in Magnaflow Hi-Flow CATs | PI Intake & PI Cams | Suspension Rebuild

'13 Taurus, "The Bull": 3.5L Goodness

'00 2dr v6 Accord, "Dirty Girl": Magnaflow Hi-Flow CAT | Greddy SP2 CAT-Back | Eibach ProKit springs | Eibach F/R Sway Bars | KYB-GR2 struts
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