Replacing Rear Subframe Bushings.... - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-25-2016, 05:09 AM Thread Starter
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Replacing Rear Subframe Bushings....

...can it be done without dropping the entire rear subframe? I've looked around and I haven't uncovered any procedures that show someone doing it that way.

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post #2 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-25-2016, 08:03 AM
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The service manual says to drop it to be able to use the tool to extract the bushing. I have never done this myself. The kit is Rotunda T89P-1000-E.
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post #3 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-25-2016, 09:24 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jco1385 View Post
The service manual says to drop it to be able to use the tool to extract the bushing. I have never done this myself. The kit is Rotunda T89P-1000-E.
Yep. I have the kit. I was just wondering if it can be done without dropping the entire rear end.

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post #4 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-25-2016, 09:23 PM
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I didn't drop mine on the '93 Mark VIII. I did have to use an air chisel though. LOL
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post #5 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-25-2016, 09:35 PM Thread Starter
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I didn't drop mine on the '93 Mark VIII. I did have to use an air chisel though. LOL
OK, I have an air chisel. Do you care to share the process you used to do it without dropping the whole thing?

Also, it looks like the front bolts are seized. Do I just use a hole saw to drill a hole in the body/frame rail area directly by the bolt/bushing?

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post #6 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-26-2016, 06:37 PM Thread Starter
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Beuler, Beuler?

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1992 Ford Thunderbird SC

Coast High Peformance 347 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
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post #7 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-26-2016, 09:59 PM
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It was a hard fought battle but yes, I holesawed a hole in the fender well to access the captive nut. I was able to finally get the bolt/nut to turn but the bolt was seized in the bushing sleeve and would not pull out. That's when the air chisel came out. I basically disintegrated the bushing with the air chisel. I had to sharpen the blade a couple times. Once the new bushing and hardware was back in place, I welded the nut to the body and used a electrical hole plug, body putty and sealer to patch the hole. Oh, I remember using soap and a jack to install the new bushing.

So, it wasn't easy but you can do it without dropping the subframe. I don't think you will be able to use the tool? I don't recall if the subframe pulled away from the body enough to get the remover adapter in there (judging by the pic, I didn't have one).

Last edited by driller; 03-26-2016 at 10:05 PM.
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post #8 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-27-2016, 05:49 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by driller View Post
It was a hard fought battle but yes, I holesawed a hole in the fender well to access the captive nut. I was able to finally get the bolt/nut to turn but the bolt was seized in the bushing sleeve and would not pull out. That's when the air chisel came out. I basically disintegrated the bushing with the air chisel. I had to sharpen the blade a couple times. Once the new bushing and hardware was back in place, I welded the nut to the body and used a electrical hole plug, body putty and sealer to patch the hole. Oh, I remember using soap and a jack to install the new bushing.

So, it wasn't easy but you can do it without dropping the subframe. I don't think you will be able to use the tool? I don't recall if the subframe pulled away from the body enough to get the remover adapter in there (judging by the pic, I didn't have one).
OK, that makes sense. I'm putting in Jay's UHMW bushings so the new part is a bit different than what I'm removing.

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"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
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post #9 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-27-2016, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by MaddMartigan View Post
OK, that makes sense. I'm putting in Jay's UHMW bushings so the new part is a bit different than what I'm removing.
Posting up pix would be very helpful; I have this to do.

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post #10 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-29-2016, 08:08 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
Posting up pix would be very helpful; I have this to do.
I read that as you were going to post up some pics, not me.

OK, I'll have to try to remember to do that.

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post #11 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-02-2016, 06:39 PM Thread Starter
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OK, I have some pics. And with those pics come the request for advice. The hottest torch I have is MAPP/Oxygen and these two bolts still don't budge no matter what I do. The bolt head on the passenger side is stripped and even my bolt/nut extractor is sliding off now.

Any thoughts?
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"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1992 Ford Thunderbird SC

Coast High Peformance 347 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
OMGHI2U

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post #12 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-02-2016, 11:30 PM
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My Dremel is usually my best friend in these type of situations..

If you have rounded off the head of the bolt..Using a cut-off wheel on the Dremel, work your way around the head of the bolt..

Basically, squaring up the head of the bolt making it fit the next size smaller socket..Nice tight fit..

You didn't mention if the nut was stripped, or not??

Anyways, Now that you have a little window in there..
You could get a pair of needle nose vice grips on the nut while you remove the bolt..

If you can't get a grip on the nut, just cut the nut off using a cut-off wheel on the Dremel..Then just get another nut/bolt..

That's what I would do..






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post #13 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-03-2016, 05:56 AM Thread Starter
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My Dremel is usually my best friend in these type of situations..

If you have rounded off the head of the bolt..Using a cut-off wheel on the Dremel, work your way around the head of the bolt..

Basically, squaring up the head of the bolt making it fit the next size smaller socket..Nice tight fit..

You didn't mention if the nut was stripped, or not??

Anyways, Now that you have a little window in there..
You could get a pair of needle nose vice grips on the nut while you remove the bolt..

If you can't get a grip on the nut, just cut the nut off using a cut-off wheel on the Dremel..Then just get another nut/bolt..

That's what I would do..
Rayo..
The head on the passenger side is stripped. Honestly, the captured nut is more important than the bolt since I have bolts coming already.

I'm guessing that the seizing is occurring because it's rusted inside the metal sleeve inside the bushing.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
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Coast High Peformance 347 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
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post #14 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-03-2016, 07:57 AM
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Don't know if this would help anyone. The passenger side forward bolt on mine was all rounded. I soaked captive nut in kroil for a week thru the gaps, the took the grinder and cut the head off. Then removed what was left of the bushing, dropped the sub frame and used a pipe wrench to remove the rest of the bolt.

I see your not removing your sub frame, how about welding a nut to the striped head so you can get a socket on that?

Good luck,

Tim
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post #15 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-03-2016, 09:02 AM Thread Starter
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Don't know if this would help anyone. The passenger side forward bolt on mine was all rounded. I soaked captive nut in kroil for a week thru the gaps, the took the grinder and cut the head off. Then removed what was left of the bushing, dropped the sub frame and used a pipe wrench to remove the rest of the bolt.

I see your not removing your sub frame, how about welding a nut to the striped head so you can get a socket on that?

Good luck,

Tim
Last thing first; I'm definitely removing the subframe. I've removed the gas tank so that I can work on this without big problems.

My next plan is the pipe wrench and then to weld a bigger nut on the bolt head so I can get a better bite.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
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-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
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Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
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post #16 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-03-2016, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MaddMartigan View Post
L...
My next plan is the pipe wrench and then to weld a bigger nut on the bolt head so I can get a better bite.
These were the suggestions I had.

You may have to split the captive nut, or cut it with a dremel.

I'm hoping I can use my press to get the bushings out...

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post #17 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-03-2016, 08:06 PM Thread Starter
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These were the suggestions I had.

You may have to split the captive nut, or cut it with a dremel.

I'm hoping I can use my press to get the bushings out...
I actually found the welded nut and pipe wrench suggestion on a Google search that turned up one from Eastwood.

You won't be able to use a press to get them out but I'll have the required tool available after I'm finished. It may even be for sale.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
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-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
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FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
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post #18 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-04-2016, 05:48 AM
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Wow, you guys are way too eager to cut holes in the chassis...lmao. I just replaced my subframe and installed Jay's UHMW bushings a few months ago, it's easier just to unbolt the bolts...and then reinstall them, the process was scary, but not difficult; you just use alignment dowels to realign the frame when done, and the rest is fixed by a wheel alignment. I used a breaker bar to remove my bolts, which are a 15mm; some of them felt like they were going to break as I removed them, but none did, they would just pop as they continued breaking loose from old age. I have found that spraying WD-40 in through the tiny hole where the brake line bracket is onto the captive nut helps. If the bolts break upon removal it's not a big deal, just move to the next ones and get the frame off the car, from there you can just twist the remaining bolt pieces out as the torque has been released from them.



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post #19 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-04-2016, 07:33 AM Thread Starter
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Wow, you guys are way too eager to cut holes in the chassis...lmao. I just replaced my subframe and installed Jay's UHMW bushings a few months ago, it's easier just to unbolt the bolts...and then reinstall them, the process was scary, but not difficult; you just use alignment dowels to realign the frame when done, and the rest is fixed by a wheel alignment. I used a breaker bar to remove my bolts, which are a 15mm; some of them felt like they were going to break as I removed them, but none did, they would just pop as they continued breaking loose from old age. I have found that spraying WD-40 in through the tiny hole where the brake line bracket is onto the captive nut helps. If the bolts break upon removal it's not a big deal, just move to the next ones and get the frame off the car, from there you can just twist the remaining bolt pieces out as the torque has been released from them.
I think you may be missing the point of this thread. My bolts are seized. I've used a 550 ft. lb. impact on them with no luck. I've used a 24" breaker bar with a cheater pipe with no luck. I've heated them with no luck.

If I could have just "unbolted" them I would have done that.

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"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
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Coast High Peformance 347 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
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post #20 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-04-2016, 04:42 PM
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...I'll have the required tool available after I'm finished. It may even be for sale.
I call dibs, if you do so.

IIRC, the oem bolts from ford were "Epoxy-coated", whatever that means.

I've never heard of a set just unscrewing; maybe people only post the ones that are a bitch, tho.


Black_Cat, Opening the closed parts just lets you get rust preventative in there, lol.

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Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #21 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-04-2016, 07:14 PM
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I've never heard of a set just unscrewing; maybe people only post the ones that are a bitch, tho.
Mine came right out, no problem..

Of course, my car spent most of its life in Texas soooo..






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post #22 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-04-2016, 07:57 PM
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I've never heard of a set just unscrewing; maybe people only post the ones that are a bitch, tho.
I've removed five rear subframes without cutting/breaking a bolt, and two with one broken bolt each. Those two were rusty cars.

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post #23 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-05-2016, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by MaddMartigan View Post
Honestly, the captured nut is more important than the bolt since I have bolts coming already.
Is that hidden nut a nut plate that is welded in or just a clip-nut? I have a parts car I could probably get one from if the nut is removable.

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post #24 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-05-2016, 08:40 AM Thread Starter
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Is that hidden nut a nut plate that is welded in or just a clip-nut? I have a parts car I could probably get one from if the nut is removable.
Honestly I'm not quite sure. According to Ford documentation it appears to be a clip-nut but since these parts are now made of unobtainium I don't want to destroy something that I can't get anymore if I have a choice. Even salvage is tricky for this kind of thing.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
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Coast High Peformance 347 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
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Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
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post #25 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-05-2016, 03:10 PM
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As usual Ford used some oddball type Capture Nut here..

FWIW..The size of the Capture Nut is M12-1.75

There is a Capture Nut inside there, that has a pair of "ears" that keep it from spinning..

What happens is, when you go to remove the bolt..If there is a build up of rust/oxidation on the bolt..

Then the "ears" can't capture the nut from spinning..So it just spins freely..

Here's a diagram to illustrate what I mean:







Rayo..

.
.
1991 Ford Thunderbird Sport

"If you don't know where you're going..Any road will take you there."George Harrison

Last edited by Rayo; 06-28-2016 at 09:53 AM. Reason: update information..
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post #26 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-05-2016, 03:38 PM
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post #27 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-05-2016, 06:06 PM Thread Starter
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If I get to the point of having to cut off the nut/U nut then welding in a plate with a nut attached will be trivial.

I'll admit that I'm fast approaching that solution.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1992 Ford Thunderbird SC

Coast High Peformance 347 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
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post #28 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-05-2016, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddMartigan View Post
If I get to the point of having to cut off the nut/U nut then welding in a plate with a nut attached will be trivial.

I'll admit that I'm fast approaching that solution.
I hadn't thought of this myself until now, but ... if you get to the point of having to cut off the nut, then using a regular nut and a second wrench to hold it while you tighten the bolt would also be trivial.

The only thing you would be missing at that point is the reinforcement value of the plate, and that doesn't really require a weld between the nut and plate.

-------------------

Steve

Owner, 1990 Thunderbird SC, white w/ gray cloth
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post #29 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-05-2016, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_Mazza View Post
I hadn't thought of this myself until now, but ... if you get to the point of having to cut off the nut, then using a regular nut and a second wrench to hold it while you tighten the bolt would also be trivial.

The only thing you would be missing at that point is the reinforcement value of the plate, and that doesn't really require a weld between the nut and plate.
True on all points except that not welding the nut in place means that ever having to touch this again would mean cutting open the frame again. Aside from concerns about rust, the welding the nut to a piece of 1/8" mild steel bar with a hole through it and then welding that to the inside of the frame rail would allow me to close up the opening and weld it shut.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1992 Ford Thunderbird SC

Coast High Peformance 347 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
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post #30 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-06-2016, 08:38 PM
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broken bolts

Hello

Ive done both. got bolts bolts to come out.
broke them as well.

Ive even broken them at the track. not a good day at the track.


Look close.

Paul [email protected]
1990 Thunderbird Circle Track Street Stock
351W 2bbl.
C-4 Auto
3.90 open rear
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