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post #1 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2018, 09:50 AM Thread Starter
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Wheelhop!

My car is stock power-wise, and I never had a hint of wheelhop with the open diff. But once I installed a Trak-loc, I get wheelhop 99% of the time I spin the tires. Rob said that was fairly common when both wheels are spinning, which I don’t understand that since my Toyota is IRS and doesn’t have a hint of wheelhop, and I have done a lot of burnouts with it.

With my IRS drag cars, I have found that things like stiffer swaybars and suspension eliminate wheelhop. So when I installed the Tokico Blues and 1 1/8” swaybar, I was looking forward to the side benefit of eliminating the stupid wheelhop, especially when one of the old rear shocks appeared to be blown.

So the first time I get into it with the new suspension, not only do I still have the hop, you can feel it much more in the car. The control arm bushings are still original with 76k miles, but they look okay. The hop always seems to come from the left tire.

Ironically, they only time I recall not getting the hop was when I did a hellacious dry donut with the worn shocks. It only seems to do it when you are just spinning lightly.

So what gives? Am I stuck with the stupid wheelhop unless I install drag bags or something of that nature? I sometimes wonder if the hop is caused by the clutches grabbing, then letting go. In a lot of ways, the Trak-loc has been a huge disappointment, getting stuck when both wheels are not flat on the ground, etc. The only situation it has helped is in the snow.

Thanks,
Al

97 T-Bird LX 4.6 - 80k miles
94 Supra TT Auto - street/strip car
04 CVPI- Brenda's car - 76k miles
Previous Fords:
95 T-Bird LX 4.6 - fully optioned, owned 15 years, 220k miles
96 Cougar XR-7 4.6- Brenda's car, owned 11 years, 187k miles
88 T-Bird 3.8 - first T-Bird, owned 5 years, 206k miles

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post #2 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2018, 10:13 AM
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The trac lok exacerbates it but it isn’t causing it, any diff you use that spins both wheels(true trac, spool, locker) will hop in these, and the clutches don’t grab and let go, that would be a locker type diff, they simply they slip when one wheel spins faster than the other. The bushings are the root of the issue, in particular the IRS ones.

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post #3 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-09-2018, 03:59 PM
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I agree with XR7-4.6

The rear bushings and all sway bar bushings and such need to be good. The airbags will help settle it more along with the other things. The one thing I've found out on these cars are short/stiff sidewalls are great for cornering and driving but not so much accelerating. For launching they like a tall sidewall and tall tire. Same for lowering springs. They don't work well either when it comes to instant acceleration. They are sometimes too stiff and cause them (Tires) to bounce too.

I cant begin to count how many halfshafts I've broken on radials or drag racing with drag radial tires Bias Drag tires and sidewalls are much more forgiving. But for a mostly or all street driven car it is what it is.

Just my thoughts.
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post #4 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-10-2018, 08:24 AM Thread Starter
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The swaybar end links are new. I have the 1" drop Vogtland springs (more like 1/2" tops), and the stock sized 215/70-15 balloon tires. New poly spring isolators (that's probably why I feel the hop more now).

I understand those control arm bushings are a bear to install. Rob avoided those like the plague when he installed the springs, probably didn't want to tear them up. I didn't think it was possible to install springs w/o disconnecting the control arms, but he did!

So basically, with all new parts and a Trak-loc, they don't wheelhop? Or do you still need additional reinforcement?

If I replace the control arm bushings, there are still large subframe bushings that are unavailable, correct?

Al

97 T-Bird LX 4.6 - 80k miles
94 Supra TT Auto - street/strip car
04 CVPI- Brenda's car - 76k miles
Previous Fords:
95 T-Bird LX 4.6 - fully optioned, owned 15 years, 220k miles
96 Cougar XR-7 4.6- Brenda's car, owned 11 years, 187k miles
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post #5 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-10-2018, 09:24 AM
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The lowering springs are the problem.

When your car launches, the coil springs compress to the maximum amount, due to being shorter.

Then the next soft part of the suspension is the tires, the tires act like a suspension part.

There is your wheel hop.

Raced my cougar since 2010 full time.

Stock rear suspension, never had wheel hop.

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post #6 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-10-2018, 11:00 AM
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Stock 5-speed SC suspensions wheelhop. I think there may be something to the stiffer springs though, it’s very that possible most of the energy gets absorbed through the softer LX setup, while with stiffer springs like SC, sport and lowering varieties, that energy gets transferred elsewhere, ie bushings, which aren’t controlled like the springs are via the shock absorbers.

That was the problem on early Fox body cars too, the control arm bushings were very soft(out of necessity due to the geometry in their case) and suffered wheel hop as performance gradually improved, and it was mostly solved with the quad shocks on the Turbo Coupe Tbirds, which were effectively horizontal dampers for the bushings.

-Matt
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post #7 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-10-2018, 11:42 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r429460 View Post
The lowering springs are the problem.

When your car launches….
The car wheel hopped exactly the same with stock suspension VS stiffer suspension. And there have been no full throttle launches, just spinning the tires a little. Not sure you can even call these springs lowering springs since the car only dropped 1/4”-3/8”.

With my old Eagle Talon TSI AWD, a stiffer swaybar and rear strut tower bar eliminated the wheelhop. I was hoping for the same with this swaybar. It makes the car feel more like a solid axle car than our Crown Vic PI, which is a solid axle car!

Al

97 T-Bird LX 4.6 - 80k miles
94 Supra TT Auto - street/strip car
04 CVPI- Brenda's car - 76k miles
Previous Fords:
95 T-Bird LX 4.6 - fully optioned, owned 15 years, 220k miles
96 Cougar XR-7 4.6- Brenda's car, owned 11 years, 187k miles
88 T-Bird 3.8 - first T-Bird, owned 5 years, 206k miles
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post #8 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-10-2018, 02:35 PM
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The variable rate purple springs I got with my Tokicos are really bouncy; when the stiffer section hits, it rebounds, then the low stiffness section wiggles for a bit.

I hate those springs; I'm going to cut a set of the stock V8 ones I have like Earl and CrystalPistol did.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
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post #9 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-10-2018, 03:10 PM
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What size were the sidewalls? (tires)

Thin sidewalls don't help.

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post #10 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-10-2018, 04:12 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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The variable rate purple springs I got with my Tokicos are really bouncy; when the stiffer section hits, it rebounds, then the low stiffness section wiggles for a bit.
.
What brand are they? I have the Vogtlands. They are a little bouncy in the rear, I thought that was the rear swaybar causing it since I installed it all at the same time.

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What size were the sidewalls? (tires)

Thin sidewalls don't help.
Stock sized tires, 215/70-15.

Al

97 T-Bird LX 4.6 - 80k miles
94 Supra TT Auto - street/strip car
04 CVPI- Brenda's car - 76k miles
Previous Fords:
95 T-Bird LX 4.6 - fully optioned, owned 15 years, 220k miles
96 Cougar XR-7 4.6- Brenda's car, owned 11 years, 187k miles
88 T-Bird 3.8 - first T-Bird, owned 5 years, 206k miles
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post #11 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-10-2018, 04:54 PM
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What brand are they? I have the Vogtlands. They are a little bouncy in the rear, I thought that was the rear swaybar causing it since I installed it all at the same time.



...

Al
IDK what springs these are, actually. I bought them as a kit with a set of 4 Tokico Blues off Amazon.

They're purple, and have a variable rate section at one end; I looked them up in my Amazon account, but the Pic there doesn't match the springs I have.
They look like the Vogtland springs on SCP's site.

Swaybar shouldn't cause bounce, imho; That's the spring force overcoming the shock damping.

I had to crank the konis way up when I put sport springs on that car, and that makes freeway expansion joints Way less fun.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
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post #12 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-12-2018, 10:52 AM
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After rereading, The shocks are blown?!

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post #13 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-12-2018, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
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When the shocks and springs were replaced, Rob said it appeared one of the old shocks was blown.

Al

97 T-Bird LX 4.6 - 80k miles
94 Supra TT Auto - street/strip car
04 CVPI- Brenda's car - 76k miles
Previous Fords:
95 T-Bird LX 4.6 - fully optioned, owned 15 years, 220k miles
96 Cougar XR-7 4.6- Brenda's car, owned 11 years, 187k miles
88 T-Bird 3.8 - first T-Bird, owned 5 years, 206k miles
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post #14 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-12-2018, 12:09 PM
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If you've got 10yo shocks on your car, you'll be really surprised when you replace them.

I would buy the (mustang) konis or bilsteins while they're still available for the rear.
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Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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post #15 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-12-2018, 01:26 PM
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How likely are they to not be available in the near future? With the Mustang market being so large, I'd be surprised that they stop making the Bilsteins and / or Konis.

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post #16 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-12-2018, 04:27 PM
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I don’t expect them to disappear either, obselesence anxiety is a thing you get after prolonged MN12 ownership.

Also bear in mind, even a low end replacement shock for a Cobra is still going to be better than anything you find specific to MN12s
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post #17 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 08:10 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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If you've got 10yo shocks on your car, you'll be really surprised when you replace them.

I would buy the (mustang) konis or bilsteins while they're still available for the rear.
Who are you referring to?

I stated that my shocks and springs were replaced recently.

I won't lie, this is getting frustrating. The clear consensus on this forum was that the Vogtlands were good springs, and were a perfect match for the Tokicos. Now I get them, find that they are a little bouncy, now other people are saying they are bouncy, and that "the spring force is overcoming the shock damping".

Al

97 T-Bird LX 4.6 - 80k miles
94 Supra TT Auto - street/strip car
04 CVPI- Brenda's car - 76k miles
Previous Fords:
95 T-Bird LX 4.6 - fully optioned, owned 15 years, 220k miles
96 Cougar XR-7 4.6- Brenda's car, owned 11 years, 187k miles
88 T-Bird 3.8 - first T-Bird, owned 5 years, 206k miles
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post #18 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 10:25 AM
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I don’t expect them to disappear either, obselesence anxiety is a thing you get after prolonged MN12 ownership.

Also bear in mind, even a low end replacement shock for a Cobra is still going to be better than anything you find specific to MN12s
So even a Monroe Daily Driver for the Cobra would be better than the Tokico Blues for the MN12? Is that what you're saying?

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Who are you referring to?

I stated that my shocks and springs were replaced recently.

I won't lie, this is getting frustrating. The clear consensus on this forum was that the Vogtlands were good springs, and were a perfect match for the Tokicos. Now I get them, find that they are a little bouncy, now other people are saying they are bouncy, and that "the spring force is overcoming the shock damping".

Al
For me, I won't care. The current handling situation of my T-Bird is that of a 16 foot boat out in rough seas. It was so bad in fact, that it was briefly nicknamed "The Boat" by some of my friends. That was all before I parked her though, lol.

Once I get all the new suspension parts put in, which includes the Vogtlands, it'll be fixed a whole lot better than what it currently is.

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post #19 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 10:31 AM Thread Starter
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Then don't get the Monroes, or your "captaincy" will remain intact.

I ran the Sensatracs on my old 95 T-Bird, and from day one, a dip in the road would make the car "ride the wave" two or three times. Pathetic shocks.

Al
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04 CVPI- Brenda's car - 76k miles
Previous Fords:
95 T-Bird LX 4.6 - fully optioned, owned 15 years, 220k miles
96 Cougar XR-7 4.6- Brenda's car, owned 11 years, 187k miles
88 T-Bird 3.8 - first T-Bird, owned 5 years, 206k miles
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post #20 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
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So even a Monroe Daily Driver for the Cobra would be better than the Tokico Blues for the MN12? Is that what you're saying?



For me, I won't care. The current handling situation of my T-Bird is that of a 16 foot boat out in rough seas. It was so bad in fact, that it was briefly nicknamed "The Boat" by some of my friends. That was all before I parked her though, lol.

Once I get all the new suspension parts put in, which includes the Vogtlands, it'll be fixed a whole lot better than what it currently is.
If Monroe or anyone else makes them, they probably are. The aftermarket meets OE spec, they may not be equal of course, but OE spec valving for a IRS Cobra only came in performance flavor. OE spec for a MN12 is almost always floaty V6 LX grade. They don’t want returns because the shocks are noticeably inadequate for the car’s spring rates

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post #21 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 02:39 PM
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... The current handling situation of my T-Bird is that of a 16 foot boat out in rough seas. It was so bad in fact, that it was briefly nicknamed "The Boat" by some of my friends. ...
I have three cars, and all three have completely different suspensions.

Lazarus is the best handling:

Frame bracing, IRS brace, rear STB.
Koni Shocks for a Tbird.
Sport Springs F&R, new poly cups in rear.
Mark VIII rear LCA's All Poly rear bushings, including diff. Bolt thru rear Diff mount.

This car is stiff as fuck. It drives like it's on rails.
I have to readjust the konis spring and fall, or they're too stiff or soft, but it takes like 30 seconds.
The rear springs need about 5/8 turn taken off, it's too tall. I blame the poly cups, they're a bit taller than the Originals.

Tbird:

Rear STB
Tokico shocks bought in 2010 from Amazon as a kit; with
Purple variable rate springs. Reused spring cups.
Stock suspension.

Drives very well, Comfort noticably better than Lazarus. Date Car.
Not floaty, but has to be 'set' into hard turns, to precompress the soft part of the spring, otherwise it can move around a bit.
Rear shocks have gotten more bouncy since they've been on, but they have 100k on them now.


Red Cougar:
It's sitting currently, but it has Gabriel shocks on it; They were getting sloppy when I blew the engine. I thought they were ok shocks until I bought the Konis, lol.
They last about 3 years before they lose it.
Monroe will feel ok for a year, maybe, lol.

I have a NIB set of sport shocks for it, when I get it running.


.
.
Gabriels were the best "Car part store" shocks I found.
If I replace the shocks on the Tbird, it will be with the Mitsu-3k bilsteins from this thread for the front:

https://forums.tccoa.com/44-suspensi...nsert-diy.html

And either the Mustang Koni or Bilstein rears.

I hope this helps!!

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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post #22 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 04:54 PM
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Gabriels were the best "Car part store" shocks I found.
If I replace the shocks on the Tbird, it will be with the Mitsu-3k bilsteins from this thread for the front:

https://forums.tccoa.com/44-suspensi...nsert-diy.html

And either the Mustang Koni or Bilstein rears.

I hope this helps!!
All this suspension talk makes me giddy about getting parts and working on mine. And it does help. I'm going balls out on my T-Bird. Bilstein rears, Bilstein inserts for fronts with the help of @MaddMartigan 's help for the modified "top hats".

The problem is that life keeps getting in the way. Things like my DD needing suspension work of its own and helping out my mom with suspension parts for her car. I'm getting all these suspension related parts but none of it for my T-Bird!!

Now sure if I want to laugh because it's funny or laugh out of frustration....
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post #23 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by CDsDontBurn View Post
All this suspension talk makes me giddy about getting parts and working on mine. And it does help. I'm going balls out on my T-Bird. Bilstein rears, Bilstein inserts for fronts with the help of @MaddMartigan 's help for the modified "top hats".

The problem is that life keeps getting in the way. Things like my DD needing suspension work of its own and helping out my mom with suspension parts for her car. I'm getting all these suspension related parts but none of it for my T-Bird!!

Now sure if I want to laugh because it's funny or laugh out of frustration....
Look at it this way ... you're getting more suspension experience so you do the 'Bird right the first time!

RwP

Fuelly
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post #24 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 06:31 PM
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Oh, of course! Like just doing the work on my mom's Sentra over the weekend was a butt load of experience!

Like I feel ready to do the work on my T-Bird now. Except...I just need money for parts now, lol.
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'97 Bird, "Pearl": L/R 2.5in Magnaflow Hi-Flow CATs | PI Intake & PI Cams | Suspension Rebuild

'13 Taurus, "The Bull": 3.5L Goodness

'00 2dr v6 Accord, "Dirty Girl": Magnaflow Hi-Flow CAT | Greddy SP2 CAT-Back | Eibach ProKit springs | Eibach F/R Sway Bars | KYB-GR2 struts
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post #25 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-14-2018, 02:32 AM
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my last mod was my 3.73 rear and that gave me wheel hop. I'm a bit chicken to find out what that does to create work on the car.


It goes good in 60 degree weather though.

1992 Tbird LX 5.0, 3.73 gears, 1995 Cobra intake, deleted air silencer, 2.5" mandrel bent dual exhaust, SCP shorty headers. Updated four-hole fuel injectors. SK shift kit in AOD. Vogtland 0.9" springs, Tokico and Bilstein shocks.
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post #26 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-29-2018, 10:15 AM Thread Starter
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Revisiting this. Will new rear diff mounts eliminate (or help eliminate) wheelhop? RobertP recommended Energy Suspension poly bushings that Rock Auto sells as a solution to this issue.

My best guess as to why the diff mounts could help is that the diff is twisting to the right under load, causing the left tire to unload. It is only the left side that hops by the way.

I don't go around spinning tires, but sometimes it's unavoidable :-). I have been avoiding it though. Literally, if the left tire turns over once, it's in the form of a hop. Don't even have to get them really spinning.

The only time it didn't hop was when I did a hellacious donut on a dry parking lot when I first installed the Trak-loc. It is the light throttle stuff that makes it hop for me.

Al

97 T-Bird LX 4.6 - 80k miles
94 Supra TT Auto - street/strip car
04 CVPI- Brenda's car - 76k miles
Previous Fords:
95 T-Bird LX 4.6 - fully optioned, owned 15 years, 220k miles
96 Cougar XR-7 4.6- Brenda's car, owned 11 years, 187k miles
88 T-Bird 3.8 - first T-Bird, owned 5 years, 206k miles
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post #27 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-29-2018, 10:32 AM
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Engergy Suspension 4.1126 is what you're looking for.

Everything I've read has said that the carrier bushings will be a major contributing factor in wheel hop.

'97 Bird, "Pearl": L/R 2.5in Magnaflow Hi-Flow CATs | PI Intake & PI Cams | Suspension Rebuild

'13 Taurus, "The Bull": 3.5L Goodness

'00 2dr v6 Accord, "Dirty Girl": Magnaflow Hi-Flow CAT | Greddy SP2 CAT-Back | Eibach ProKit springs | Eibach F/R Sway Bars | KYB-GR2 struts
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post #28 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-29-2018, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDsDontBurn View Post
Engergy Suspension 4.1126 is what you're looking for.

Everything I've read has said that the carrier bushings will be a major contributing factor in wheel hop.

Ill back these up. They are both my cars, the 96 doesnt wheel hop at all and it helped the SC a lot. The SC still wheel hops but thats because the subframe to frame bushings are shit. Gonna get the aluminum bushings at one point.

First: Stacie, 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Second: Ellie, 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end

Third: 1997 Dodge Ram 1500, thirsty daily.

Fourth: 1990 Tbird SC, GT40 5.0 mated to m5r2, BBK long tubes, motor out the hood, drift car.
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post #29 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-29-2018, 11:50 AM
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It might be one of those every little bit helps sort of things, but they won’t come near eliminating wheelhop. I installed those bushings with my gears/trac lok swap and have been on the car for the majority of the time I owned it, but I didn’t get wheelhop to manageable state until recently, which is now poly everything and the “so-cal wheelhop delete” hack to the subframe bushing sleeves(which I had to do to free the siezed bolts from them lol), and it still occasionally hops under certain conditions.

I’m certain the subframe bushings are the root cause of it, the diff movement is marginal and twisting really doesn’t affect the tire when it’s linked to it with CV shafts. The whole IRS shifts under acceleration and unloads violently because the factory bushings have stops for upward travel and nothing but rubber for resisting downward travel. That’s what cutting the sleeves helped with in my case, compressing the rubber between the bottom cups and cradle effectively pre-loads them for more resistance. Go aluminum or UMMV and you’re even better off

-Matt

Last edited by XR7-4.6; 10-29-2018 at 12:31 PM.
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post #30 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-29-2018, 01:56 PM Thread Starter
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Would replacing the control arm bushings along with the diff bushings get me on the right track? Are the two control arm bushings near the center of the car even available?

The front most control arm bushing at the center of the car (the one with the little link) doesn't look in great shape. Tried to check on SCP, but the website is fubar. I have seen the outer ones on there before.

Al

97 T-Bird LX 4.6 - 80k miles
94 Supra TT Auto - street/strip car
04 CVPI- Brenda's car - 76k miles
Previous Fords:
95 T-Bird LX 4.6 - fully optioned, owned 15 years, 220k miles
96 Cougar XR-7 4.6- Brenda's car, owned 11 years, 187k miles
88 T-Bird 3.8 - first T-Bird, owned 5 years, 206k miles
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