Moog PI strut rod bushing failures - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-19-2004, 12:01 AM Thread Starter
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Moog strut rod bushing failures

We're trying to figure out if this is an isolated incident or if it is more widespread
than any of us know.

If you have had a failure of Moog #K8659 strut rod bushings, please let me know.
These are the "problem solver" line of bushings.

I have had two failures so far this year and The Great Obucina just had
his fail in exactly the same fashion.

See the attached photos:
The top left is my most recent failure two weeks ago.
The top right is Joseph's failure last week.
Bottom is of bushings in new condition.

Something is not right here.

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Last edited by tbirdbrain; 07-19-2004 at 12:12 AM.
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post #2 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-19-2004, 12:20 AM
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Aren't the Moogs polyurethane?

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post #3 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-19-2004, 12:21 AM Thread Starter
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yes, that's what they are.

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post #4 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-19-2004, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Al_Florida
Aren't the Moogs polyurethane?
yepper, that failed bushing was close to letting my wheel go bye bye. It happened while pulling out of a parking space on wednesday night...I almost decided to go to the drag strip earlier that day

joseph




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post #5 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-19-2004, 12:24 AM
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Holy smokes. They were on my list of things to buy this week.

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post #6 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-19-2004, 02:22 AM
 
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i replaced my lca's and uca's about 6 months ago and replaced the strud rod bushings too, and im having the same problem they seem to be wearing extremely fast they already look dry .
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post #7 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-19-2004, 02:38 AM
 
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What did the parts dept where you got them say? Isn't there also a warranty, so at least you'd get free replacements?

I'd also suggest writing up a detailed report, (including those pictures), and send it off to:

World Headquarters
Federal-Mogul Corporation
26555 Northwestern Highway
Southfield, Michigan 48034
U.S.A.

Phone: 248/354-7700
Fax: 248/354-8950

They're the manufacturer, and I'm sure they'd be interested, especially if you mention the liability problems they'd have if failure of these components caused a serious accident. I'd mail copies to several departments, such as head or manager of the MOOG Division, warranty dept, legal dept, customer relations, even the president of the company, (be sure to include your contact info so they can get back to you). Sooner or later it's bound to get to the right people, and if there IS a design defect, I'm sure they'd like to know about it. If it were something non-critical, (like floormats), I'd just say blow it off, but it might be worth your while if you were instrumental in helping them determine the cause of the failure. New from the factory last like 10 years, so there's definitely a problem somewhere I'm sure they'd like to know about.
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post #8 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-19-2004, 07:38 AM Thread Starter
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The first call was to the parts store. they will help in any way I ask. I am now talking to Moog.

Please, anyone who has these installed, check them ASAP (especially the front side).

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post #9 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-19-2004, 09:43 AM
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DanU went through this several years ago. I believe he went through 3 or 4 sets of them before he went back to Ford bushings, and didn't have any problems after that.

John

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post #10 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-19-2004, 11:47 AM
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agree with dode...DanU has been there and done this.

for some reason the MOOG strut rod bushing doesn't cut it.
Stick with the FORD part.

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post #11 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-19-2004, 12:18 PM
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I guess there is a reason Rich at MN12 includes the Ford strut bushings with his poly kit

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post #12 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-19-2004, 01:00 PM
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Those are the bushings that go to the frame right? How are the Moog bushings that go to the LCAs? Do those last or should I stick with Ford on those to? I was getting ready to order some front suspension stuff from Rock Auto and those bushing were on the list....anyone know the PN or price for the Ford bushings?

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post #13 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-19-2004, 01:03 PM
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I believe those are the LCA ones Aaron. Rich sends the OEM LCA instead of Poly

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post #14 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-19-2004, 01:08 PM
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These are the strut rod to k-frame bsuhings.

I had these for over 2 years now. They still look brand new. Did you have the nuts tight enough ? It looks like the sharp edges in the k-frame cut through them.
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post #15 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-19-2004, 01:38 PM Thread Starter
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I rebuilt and 'rebushed' the front of this car 5 months ago. The previous set was in for 1 1/2 years.
I only changed them because everything else was new.

If this were only one car I could just attribute it to an error like a loose nut but it is more
than just one.

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post #16 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-20-2004, 01:06 PM Thread Starter
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well, we may have a little more information.

there were bushing kits that had been shipped a few years ago that had an incorrectly sized
steel sleeve. The sleeve should be 2 3/4" in length but these kits had 3" sleeves.
It is possible that these kits are from that batch.

Now I just have to get inspired enough to take the front end apart again

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post #17 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-20-2004, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tbirdbrain
well, we may have a little more information.

there were bushing kits that had been shipped a few years ago that had an incorrectly sized
steel sleeve. The sleeve should be 2 3/4" in length but these kits had 3" sleeves.
It is possible that these kits are from that batch.

Now I just have to get inspired enough to take the front end apart again
--

very interesting - I put a set on my car from carquest about a year ago - I wonder if I got the wrong size sleeve .......
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post #18 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-20-2004, 01:20 PM
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So is the correct sleeve smaller that the two bushing put together ? I would imagine so ...
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post #19 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-20-2004, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mad1stGen
So is the correct sleeve smaller that the two bushing put together ? I would imagine so ...
no, the wrong sleeve is short

hence why the bushing get crushed
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post #20 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-20-2004, 02:22 PM
 
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Read the thread and thought I would add my .02

The Moog (blue) problem solver bushings are not polyurethane. They are Thermo Plastic.

The inner sleeves included with the K8659 are cheap. Rolled steel with a gap down the side does not allow for a very tight fit over the strut rod. I had custom DOM steel tubing cut and machined to fit over the strut rod tightly and not deflect under load. The two piece OEM Ford ferrules for the front strut rod bushings work pretty good until Ford upped the price by 300% on the front ferrule. They were a non reuseable sleeve as they compress and interlock preventing them from coming apart without destroying the front ferrel.



The design I came up with and it so far has worked well. The two polyurethane bushings with the Yellow Zinc plated sleeve.



I tested the Moog (blue) thermo plastic bushings many years ago before the polyurethane bushings you see in the FSK100. The thermo plastic would deform and crack under my tests. The rear strut rod bushings in the MN12 FSK100 kit are Ford OEM and the reason is they are not really a solid rubber bushing. OEM design is a saucer shaped steel bushing covered in a thin coating of rubber. The Moog (blue) rear strut rod bushings cracked and failed in my tests again.

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post #21 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-20-2004, 02:33 PM
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good info rich

why you're here - do you notice alot more vibration in the steering wheel with the poly rack bushings?
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post #22 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-21-2004, 08:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kentwood
good info rich

why you're here - do you notice alot more vibration in the steering wheel with the poly rack bushings?
No additional vibration caused by the poly steering mounts. I have not recieved a call from anyone who reported a problem after installing them.
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post #23 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-22-2004, 09:19 PM
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I had the Moog's on my daily driver for about 2 years and didn't have a problem, I wonder if it has to do with something else in combination, like having the washers turned the wrong way, or being lowered or something?

-J

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post #24 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-24-2004, 06:34 PM
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Ok, I just discovered another problem with strut rod bushings today. I was changing my oil getting my car read for an auto x tomorrow and all I can say is that it is a damn good thing my oil needed changed. What happened to me is totally inexplicable to me. I am running the poly bushings from the MN-12 performance kit shown above. The bushing on the front side where the strut rod attaches to the car somehow worked its way around the washer! I discovered it just hanging from the front of the strut rod. The washer is sill there right behind the nut. The bushing is chewed up slightly but no where near enough that I can force it back passed the washer. I am totally mind boggled as to how the bushing was able to get passed the washer, it is really weird. Has anyone else ever heard of this? Needless to say without any bushing at all the Lightning will be auto xing tomorrow and not the Bird which really sucks since it is a points event and I finally got some of the other local MN-12 guys to come out to an event. So, what am I going to have to get from Rich? Do I need to worry about this happening again on the same side? What about the other side, right now it appears fine. The ones on the backside look fine too. I am really confused as to what happened.

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post #25 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-24-2004, 06:44 PM Thread Starter
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4 Cam Bird,

Could you please post a picture of this?

And for everybody else interested, the problem isn't the sleeve being too
short but in fact too long, preventing the bushing halves from seating
together tight enough. The nut tightens down against the steel sleeve,
not providing enough pressure on the bushings, which allows them
to slop around on the frame holes and causes premature wear.

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post #26 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-24-2004, 07:06 PM
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The only digital camera I have is my phone and I took a picture but you can't tell what is going on. I really want to post pictures though. I have it posted on some of my local boards and requested to have someone with a good camera call me. So I'll get the pictures posted as soon as I can. I should be able to have some tonight.

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post #27 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-25-2004, 09:57 AM
 
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Send me an e-mail I will replace the bushing no cost.

I have replaced front strut rod bushings which have split and fallen off before. Not real common problem.

The sleeve length of the front strut rod I designed to compress the bushing .130" between the two washers to preload the polyurethane but not crush it. Polyurethane can be split if compressed too much or cut. During the adjustment phase of the alignment one can compress the bushing too much causing it to fail. Proper balance between the two nuts is important. Again very uncommon for the front strut rod bushing to fail. I replace at no cost any of the FSK100 parts if they should fail not associated with abuse or accident.
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post #28 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-25-2004, 07:14 PM
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FWIW I have been running Rich's bushings for 150,000 miles now and when I was under the car today replacing the steering rack the strut rod bushings look like they did the day I put them in.

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post #29 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-30-2004, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jturmel
I had the Moog's on my daily driver for about 2 years and didn't have a problem, I wonder if it has to do with something else in combination, like having the washers turned the wrong way, or being lowered or something?

-J


I have run both types in the two 'Birds that I have owned, for probably 200,000 miles between the two cars, and have had nary a problem. I have run many autocrosses with the old car, and with my new car, I autocrossed for a year and a half, and now just go to open track days. I have yet to see that kind of failure on either aftermarket strut rod bushing, both MN-12 Perf. and MOOG.

I was also thinking that having the washers turned the wrong way could lead to the damage shown on so,me of those bushings.
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post #30 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-30-2004, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kleckner




I have run both types in the two 'Birds that I have owned, for probably 200,000 miles between the two cars, and have had nary a problem. I have run many autocrosses with the old car, and with my new car, I autocrossed for a year and a half, and now just go to open track days. I have yet to see that kind of failure on either aftermarket strut rod bushing, both MN-12 Perf. and MOOG.

I was also thinking that having the washers turned the wrong way could lead to the damage shown on so,me of those bushings.
I highly doubt Preston(tbirdbrain) would have installed the washers bassackwards, but 2 failures on the same side within a month of each other, both purhcased from the same parts store and put on the cars at about the same time would lead me to beleive the problem is stemming from a sleeve that is too long and does not allow the washer to fully engage the bushing. Both of these failure occured on the driver side outside bushing.

joseph




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