aluminum subframe bushings - TCCoA Forums
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-20-2004, 05:40 PM Thread Starter
Refrigerator Raider Hater
Moderator
 
GreenBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Vermont
Age: 36
Posts: 11,719
aluminum subframe bushings

I've got a pair of these that where made for my SHO, but I think I could make them work on the bird to stop wheel hop. a poly bushing would go between the aluminum pieces.

http://members.tccoa.com/greenbird/T...ird/bottom.jpg
http://members.tccoa.com/greenbird/Thunderbird/top.jpg




Matt "Looks Like Egon" Davis
96 Alpine Green V8
98 Audi A8 4.2Q in Racing Green Totalled
02 Audi A8L 4.2Q in Black

I buy my OEM Ford parts at 10% over dealer cost from Steve in White Bear Lake, MN.
You drive "like a man possessed"... by a woman!
GreenBird is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-20-2004, 06:13 PM
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 201
Are you talking where the IRS butts up to the unibody (just in front of the wheel wells on the rear)? I think this idea has been brought up before but I don't think there was decision made about NVH on the issue.
Fusion0507 is offline  
post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-20-2004, 06:27 PM
PostWhore
 
Kentwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Louisiana
Age: 36
Posts: 1,024
Send a message via AIM to Kentwood
good idea

but there are ALOT of other things that must be done to the subframe before those become the biggest contributor to wheel hop
Kentwood is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-20-2004, 07:49 PM Thread Starter
Refrigerator Raider Hater
Moderator
 
GreenBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Vermont
Age: 36
Posts: 11,719
the SC guys seem to think it's the main problem, and so do I.




Matt "Looks Like Egon" Davis
96 Alpine Green V8
98 Audi A8 4.2Q in Racing Green Totalled
02 Audi A8L 4.2Q in Black

I buy my OEM Ford parts at 10% over dealer cost from Steve in White Bear Lake, MN.
You drive "like a man possessed"... by a woman!
GreenBird is offline  
post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-20-2004, 08:21 PM
PostWhore
 
Kentwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Louisiana
Age: 36
Posts: 1,024
Send a message via AIM to Kentwood
Quote:
Originally posted by GreenBird
the SC guys seem to think it's the main problem, and so do I.
interesting
Kentwood is offline  
post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-20-2004, 09:17 PM Thread Starter
Refrigerator Raider Hater
Moderator
 
GreenBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Vermont
Age: 36
Posts: 11,719
If you have a differnet view and can explain it please do.




Matt "Looks Like Egon" Davis
96 Alpine Green V8
98 Audi A8 4.2Q in Racing Green Totalled
02 Audi A8L 4.2Q in Black

I buy my OEM Ford parts at 10% over dealer cost from Steve in White Bear Lake, MN.
You drive "like a man possessed"... by a woman!
GreenBird is offline  
post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-20-2004, 09:23 PM
PostWhore
 
Kentwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Louisiana
Age: 36
Posts: 1,024
Send a message via AIM to Kentwood
Quote:
Originally posted by GreenBird
If you have a differnet view and can explain it please do.
no I meant interesting as in I wouldn't think that but I'd like to look into it
Kentwood is offline  
post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-20-2004, 10:13 PM
PostWhore
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canada's Rain Forest
Age: 43
Posts: 1,923
the four subframe to Body mounts i can see playing a key role in the wheelhop but MAN the the 6 big *** rubber bushing on the control arms i think will play even a bigger role in the cuase of the wheelhop..

but people have replaced the subframe mounts and say the wheel hop had disapeared so..
91 XR7 is offline  
post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-06-2004, 01:47 AM
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 437
Quote:
Originally posted by GreenBird
I've got a pair of these that where made for my SHO, but I think I could make them work on the bird to stop wheel hop. a poly bushing would go between the aluminum pieces.

http://members.tccoa.com/greenbird/T...ird/bottom.jpg
http://members.tccoa.com/greenbird/Thunderbird/top.jpg
I'd buy some alum. rear subframe bushings in a second. The problem is gonna be finding somebody who can make the poly bushing!!!!!

I've been saying for Years that HWH is caused by the large squishy subframe bushings.

I already have: Poly front diff. bushings, Poly rear diff mount, the IRS Pinion Brace, 1 3/8" sway bar & air bags. I still dribble the tires in 1st. & 2nd.

As far as NVH goes, I don't think it will be any worse than it is right now. I'd gladdly give up some NVH to cure my HWH!!!!!!!!!!

68COUGAR
68COUGAR is offline  
post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-06-2004, 09:23 AM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
4 Cam Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Claswon, MI
Age: 38
Posts: 2,314
Send a message via AIM to 4 Cam Bird
The subframe bolts are a real pain in the *** to get out. Mine were locked in there real good and my car isn't even rusty at all. Just a warning to anyone wanting to drop the whole subframe.

I looked into other bushing materials when I had my subframe out. No one makes anything. I was extremely disappointed. I put new rubber ones in. Right now I have zero wheel hop, its nice. I imagine when those bushings get worn though that it will show back up. I did so much at once though that I really can't put a finger on what the biggest wheel hop eliminating thing I did was.

Former owner of 94 Bird with DOHC 4.6L swapped from a mark VIII

2011 CTS-V Wagon
1968 Torino was an original 289, C4, fully documented numbers matching car. Now: DOHC 4.6L/T-56 swapped, Cobra intake, IMRC delete, BBK long tubes and H pipe. Dynotech Aluminum Driveshaft, 9" rear with TrueTrac and 4.11's.
4 Cam Bird is offline  
post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-06-2004, 12:09 PM
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 437
Quote:
Originally posted by 4 Cam Bird
I put new rubber ones in. Right now I have zero wheel hop
I bought my '89 5-spd XR-7 new. It did not have any wheel hop, for several years. Now I hop 3rd. gear when I race. I think you've proved that when the rear subframe bushings get old, they cause HWH.

Now all we have to do, is find somebody who can machine some poly or alum. replacements!!!!!!!!!!!!

68COUGAR
68COUGAR is offline  
post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-06-2004, 12:23 PM
PostWhore
 
fast Ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Caledon, Ontario ... CANADA !
Posts: 1,548
At Carlisle this year, George and Duffy from SCCoA arranged for two retired Ford engineers to speak to us after dinner on Saturday evening. They both had worked on the MN-12 program, one was a driveline NVH guy, the other a suspension ride & handling specialist. Chuck Weiss, the susp. guy, was of the opinion that a probable cause for the wheel hop could be the fact that the rear upper control arms only have a single mounting point, allowing for movement back and forth ... which is the direction of the hopping when observed on MN-12 cars. The only way to fix that would be to design a new upper control arm and attachment to the subframe.

cheers,
Ed N.

95 T-Bird SC 5-speed -- SOLD!!
88 T-Bird Turbo Coupe 5-speed
07 Mustang GT 5-speed with some stuff
fast Ed is offline  
post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-06-2004, 12:34 PM
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 437
Quote:
Originally posted by fast Ed N
The only way to fix that would be to design a new upper control arm and attachment to the subframe.
OR restrict it's movement with poly. bushings.

68COUGAR
68COUGAR is offline  
post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-06-2004, 01:44 PM
PostWhore
 
fast Ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Caledon, Ontario ... CANADA !
Posts: 1,548
You're correct Mark ... I should have said, the "proper or best way".

cheers,
Ed N.
fast Ed is offline  
post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-06-2004, 04:57 PM
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 437
My purpose in life has ben renewed!!!!!! The only decision left is:

$150 @ mn12performance

OR

$89 @ Vintage Performance Motor Cars

Hmmmmmmm?

68COUGAR

Last edited by 68COUGAR; 08-06-2004 at 05:03 PM.
68COUGAR is offline  
post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-06-2004, 08:12 PM
PostWhore
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canada's Rain Forest
Age: 43
Posts: 1,923
Quote:
Originally posted by fast Ed N
... which is the direction of the hopping when observed on MN-12 cars. The only way to fix that would be to design a new upper control arm and attachment to the subframe.
And was thinking a Nice new A-arm setup with the Camber adjusting ability reloated on the outboard point.. is wouldn't be THAT hard to make something up... alittle welding here, some Custom bushings there... a spacer here and there.....
91 XR7 is offline  
post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-08-2004, 11:34 AM
PostWhore
 
jturmel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: OKC, OK
Posts: 1,848
Send a message via Yahoo to jturmel
It's got to be a combination of all the damn bushings down there, whatever is worn is going to let the wheel hop happen easier. I say do the quadshocks and all new bushings, at least that's what I'm going to do.

-J

1991 Sport 5.0
4R70W Converted, U4P0/SCT Controlled
[email protected], 1.948 60' - 3450 lbs
RIP 1991-2006
jturmel is offline  
post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-09-2004, 12:42 AM
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 437
Quote:
Originally posted by jturmel
It's got to be a combination of all the damn bushings down there, whatever is worn is going to let the wheel hop happen easier.
Forget the notion that the changing pinion angle is what's causing HWH. That's for solid axle cars, and doesn't apply to IRS cars. I have Poly front diff. mount, Poly rear diff mount, & IRS Pinion brace. My diff isn't moving at all, and I still have HWH.

The knuckle bushings are a possible source of HWH as are the large squishy rear subframe mounts.

68COUGAR
68COUGAR is offline  
post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-09-2004, 09:19 AM
PostWhore
 
jturmel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: OKC, OK
Posts: 1,848
Send a message via Yahoo to jturmel
Quote:
Originally posted by 68COUGAR

Forget the notion that the changing pinion angle is what's causing HWH. That's for solid axle cars, and doesn't apply to IRS cars. I have Poly front diff. mount, Poly rear diff mount, & IRS Pinion brace. My diff isn't moving at all, and I still have HWH.

The knuckle bushings are a possible source of HWH as are the large squishy rear subframe mounts.

68COUGAR


I never said anything about pinion angle...

I'm going to do all new bushings (on the spindle) and the quad shocks. Thanks for the assumption though.

-J

1991 Sport 5.0
4R70W Converted, U4P0/SCT Controlled
[email protected], 1.948 60' - 3450 lbs
RIP 1991-2006
jturmel is offline  
post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-09-2004, 10:26 AM
4th Gear Poster
 
97Limited Edition TB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Charlotte, NC
Age: 40
Posts: 240
I have been looing into the possibility of fabbing up a triangular upper control arm as well. There is not much room back there. You cannot do a 60-60-60 degree upper control arm (like our front upper control arm) b/c one leg of the control arm will be going right thru the spring. I have looked into a 30-60-90 dgree triangular set up with the control arm, basicly having a tubular section where the existing upper control arm is and adding another tubular section hooking in to the front side of the control arm.
I started this project last winter and work ended up taking all my time. I am hoping to get back started on it here in the next three weeks or so.
Needless to say, I totally agree with the statement that our rear upper control arms are the main contributing factor to the HWH.

'97 Limited Edition Thunder Bird
JBA headers
ART X pipe
MAC underdive pulleys
17X9 Cobra R's
Eibach springs
Koni infinite adjustables
Xenon Ground Effects
97Limited Edition TB is offline  
post #21 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-09-2004, 10:48 AM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
4 Cam Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Claswon, MI
Age: 38
Posts: 2,314
Send a message via AIM to 4 Cam Bird
When redesigning the upper control arm, if you make one of the triangle sides in the same position as the current control arm, don't forget to check the clearances with the half shaft at full compression.

Former owner of 94 Bird with DOHC 4.6L swapped from a mark VIII

2011 CTS-V Wagon
1968 Torino was an original 289, C4, fully documented numbers matching car. Now: DOHC 4.6L/T-56 swapped, Cobra intake, IMRC delete, BBK long tubes and H pipe. Dynotech Aluminum Driveshaft, 9" rear with TrueTrac and 4.11's.
4 Cam Bird is offline  
post #22 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-09-2004, 09:40 PM
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 437
Quote:
Originally posted by jturmel
I never said anything about pinion angle...
That's True. I incorrectly thought you were bringing up a subject totally inappropriate with IRS cars.

68COUGAR
68COUGAR is offline  
post #23 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 03:04 AM
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 437
Not the Pinion Angle

Quote:
Originally posted by jturmel
I never said anything about pinion angle
True, I wrongly assumed you were going there, Since just about every "Cure HWH", thread tried to make the changing pinion angle the scape goat!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Pinion angle is NOT the source of HWH.

68COUAR

Last edited by 68COUGAR; 08-18-2004 at 06:25 AM.
68COUGAR is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the TCCoA Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome