I was told that T-Birds are retarded! - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 04:44 AM Thread Starter
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Red face I was told that T-Birds are retarded!

No not retarded as in stupid cars, but retarded as in they have a retard programed into the computer. I was told that this retard keeps the rear wheels from slipping while at WOT. Is this true? A friends dad told me this because we were talking about how I can floor a 96 4.6L and not even make the tires slip or chirp from a complete stop at WOT, but if I push the throtle like 1/2 to 3/4 the way from a complete stop they'll spin like crazy and sometimes make a bit of smoke! So are Thunderbirds retarded?

Thanks for any info!

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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 07:38 AM
 
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correct

without a chip they are retarded during the shifts at WOT, to soften the shift, and keep the rear wheels from spinning.
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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 10:29 AM
 
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if you mean an active monitoring system that will sense wheelspin and pull back the timing to stop the spinning, no. it will retard the timing during shifts to soften it up, but the system that you may or may not have that prevents wheel spin is traction control. it senses wheel spin and either applies the brakes or lifts the throttle automatically. im not sure exactly how it works since i dont have it, but it definetly does not pull timing to get it done.
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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 10:52 AM
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Re: I was told that T-Birds are retarded!

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony
I was told that this retard keeps the rear wheels from slipping while at WOT.
Thanks for any info!
LOL :p :p

Sold = 96 Thunderbird
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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 12:11 PM
 
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I know what you mean. My 99 Ranger did the same thing. Floor it from a stop, and it would just go, no wheelspin. Next stoplight (meaning same air temp, same road surface, same tire temp) I would do a 1/2 throttle and it would spin that right rear EASY. I don't know why it did it, I'm just backing you up that it DOES happen. My friend's '01 GTP does it too.

Are you guys SURE there is no computer shenanigans going on at WOT, regardless if shift time or not? I was always under the impression car computers went to closed loop (or is it open) at WOT, and the opposite loop at anything less than WOT. So maybe the loop it uses at WOT isn't quite as efficient.

Hey I'm just throwing it out there for some feedback, I'm not claiming to know it all
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 12:35 PM
 
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the difference you are seeing can only be caused by road conditions or launch speed. there are no programs that stop wheelspin except traction control.
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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 01:55 PM Thread Starter
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I guess some of you think i'm retarded! lol

But i'm serious. I've messed with this over and over again. No I don't have traction control either. Had 1 passenger in the car also. It was even wet out and when I floored it from a complete stop and got this wierd hop but no or little wheel spin. Then I drove around the block and pulled up to the same stop sign and the same spot. Pushed the throtle like 3/4 and the wheel(s) spun for quite a while. Remember this is on wet pavement. Whenever at WOT from a complete stop you can feel the it kick in at about 2500 RPMS, but before that it feels slow.

*Sigh* I guess some of you think this is funny, but all I did was ask a simple question. O well!

EDIT: I forgot, you think there might just be something wrong with the car?

Thanks!

Sold - 1997 Ford Thunderbird 4.6 Sport - Full bolt on, PI stuff, gears, converter, exhaust, full suspension & many other things.

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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 02:07 PM
 
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i dont really think its funny, you just asked if there was a function of the car that would retard the timing when you got wheelspin. the answer is no. next time you try that, pay attention to how high your torque converter is stalling. it could simply be that at half throttle its loading up to a higher speed than it would at WOT, which doesnt make any sense to me, but i suppose it is possible.
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 02:22 PM Thread Starter
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I'm not asking if there is a function to prevent wheel spin (like traction control), I was just wondering if like everytime the car is at WOT and within the first couple of thousand RPM's that the power might be automatically reduced every time no matter what. So this way a 60 year old woman wouldn't go out of control if she decided she'd floor it...lol. I thought it might be a safety feature since these cars aren't made to be race cars. So anyways thanks for the feedback.

Sold - 1997 Ford Thunderbird 4.6 Sport - Full bolt on, PI stuff, gears, converter, exhaust, full suspension & many other things.

2007 MUSTANG GT (5M) - 504rwhp/449rwtq
- Paxton NOVI 2200 H.O. (10psi) - CMDP's - 127200 Comp Cams - BBK LT's - O/R X - FRPP GTA's - Mid Atlantic Tuned - FRPP 4.10's - Truetrac - Moser Axles - McLeod RST - Fidanza Steel FW - Eibach Pro Kit - J&M LCA's - UMI Relo. Brackets - Spohn Adj. PHB - Prothane Motor Mounts - Hawk HPS Pads - 19" Sport Edition KV5 Rims - Hankook Ventus V12 Evo Tires
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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 02:54 PM
 
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yes

the computer is programmed to cut back the timing at WOT shifts, it does it for one prupose, to soften the shifts for families, older people, anyone who doesn't want a neck snapping shift.
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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 03:01 PM
 
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thats just during shifts though. hes convinced that the timing is backed out at launch at WOT. im having a hard time believing that
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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 03:12 PM
 
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correct

the timing is not pulled at launch, ONLY at the shifts, you are correct there J-Rob, might be another problem if you have no power at a WOT launch.
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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 03:14 PM
 
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btw, hows the head swap going?
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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 03:26 PM Thread Starter
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Okay, I understand!

I guess it just might be my imagination then. Thanks for setting this straight for me guys. Maybe the reason there is no wheel spin at WOT because there is alot more wieght transfer! And when 3/4 the way there is less transfer which then makes wheelspin. Who knows, maybe there is something wrong. I also got to remember that it is a heavy car too. Anyways thanks again!

Sold - 1997 Ford Thunderbird 4.6 Sport - Full bolt on, PI stuff, gears, converter, exhaust, full suspension & many other things.

2007 MUSTANG GT (5M) - 504rwhp/449rwtq
- Paxton NOVI 2200 H.O. (10psi) - CMDP's - 127200 Comp Cams - BBK LT's - O/R X - FRPP GTA's - Mid Atlantic Tuned - FRPP 4.10's - Truetrac - Moser Axles - McLeod RST - Fidanza Steel FW - Eibach Pro Kit - J&M LCA's - UMI Relo. Brackets - Spohn Adj. PHB - Prothane Motor Mounts - Hawk HPS Pads - 19" Sport Edition KV5 Rims - Hankook Ventus V12 Evo Tires
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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 03:35 PM
 
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heh

I wish, I am just gathering parts now, I don't think I noted that properly. I have the heads, which is of course the major part, I was going to get the bullitt intake, but won't now because of that price hike.
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post #16 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 03:39 PM
 
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i had some parts lined up for the swap through some people at corral.net before i sold the heads to you.... they might still have some intakes and valve covers around.
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post #17 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 03:46 PM
 
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ahh

I'll go check, I have the upper intake, so only need the lower, need both valve covers, and gaskets, and what seems to be about a billion other parts, and I been contemplating just waiting and having the entire motor torn down when I do the swap, and replace everything with forged goodies
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post #18 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 05:12 PM
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Talking Here is the correct info...

As someone who knows once told me, at any shift above 15% throttle, the EEC pulls timing out to make the shift smoother. At WOT, the EEC takes the timing to 10 degrees AFTER top dead center. Some heavy part throttle shifts can also see negative spark advance.

He also told us that when you modify the engine, the triggers for the spark retard will be off.

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post #19 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 07:32 PM
 
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Thank you A-Train

I knew the timing was cut back from a previous conversation with someone, but I could not remember how much it was cut back
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post #20 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 11:10 PM
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Would a chip from , oh say Dennis, override the timing pull on the shifts for a better shift and a stronger run down the track?

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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 11:37 PM
 
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Cool Ah.....A-Train, Thanks for providing...

some straight forward, clear, and correct tech info. Too bad our
time has to be wasted in the power adder area by a few choads
that need to take a semester at tech school instead of puking
out a bunch incorrect hearsay, as fact, to the board....

Anyway, with respect to timing - I can't remember...if one were
to have an EEC that had been worked on by "someone who knows"...
is timing ever pulled during the acceleration profile in a
NA application...how 'bout an SC'd setup?

I think I can guess the answers, but then that's just what I
don't want to do....

Thanks for the recent help,
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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by AverageJoe
Would a chip from , oh say Dennis, override the timing pull on the shifts for a better shift and a stronger run down the track?
Yes. The chip will greatly improve the feel and effectiveness of your shifts.

There is something that I don't think has been touched on:

Throttle Tip-In Spark Retard

As somebody who knows once explained to me, the stock programming is set to pull timing slightly at abrupt positive throttle changes. It only does it for a few seconds, but when you stomp it, the spark is retarded slightly. This is again to improve the "feel" for granny should she accidently floor it. The increase in accelleration will be softened somewhat by reducing power output slightly via retarded timing.

This is a VERY feelable difference when you disable that "feature". It will give you part-throttle response you didn't know your car could have. Kudos to the great one!

EDIT: MajorThom, this will address your last post.

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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 11:48 PM
 
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Thumbs up Thanks Sir William.......ain't...

straight forward facts, sweet?!
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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-15-2002, 11:53 PM
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Re: Thanks Sir William.......ain't...

Quote:
Originally posted by MagerThom
straight forward facts, sweet?!
I'm all about that man. My goal is to have knowledgeable moderators edit and/or kill misinformation. That's why we'll have several moderators once things are all settled in.

Just glad to be of service.

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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-16-2002, 02:58 AM
 
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Okay.... really sweet...
Love the person "who knows" but please!
Can someone tell me who this is and if he makes a chip
or not??? I defenetily want that granny thing out of my ECM!
I'm only 26, not 86... If I say "brake my neck" I want my car to do so...
And not by smashing into a tree...
*laughing*


Can someone who knows help me...


Thanks a lot in advance!

REg's
//Per A
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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-16-2002, 04:52 AM
 
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Cool I would assume you are running an

AOD behind that 5.0 - if such is the case, it's mechanically,
not electronically controlled - so for tranny peformance
upgrades you'll have to be looking at something like a
Transgo kit.

Dennis Reinhart is one of people burning the chips referred
to earlier. He can't provide you with one that offers tranny
controls, but you might contact him concerning what, if anything,
he can provide with respect to engine contols/tuning.

Here's his link:

http://www.reinhartautomotive.com/

What you want to accomplish is not complicated or difficult
ie: advance curve tuning and tranny tweaking - give Dennis
a call he can outline the best mods for you.

Hope this helps,
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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-16-2002, 05:05 AM
 
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Was it Dennis all along...... ?

That figures...
Then i shouldn't be a problem in the world..

Going to contact him when I get my 90mm MAF,
true dual exhaust and JBA Headers...

Telling him what mods I've made and then I guess
he could make a chip "specially" for me...

Since going to a chip shop here in sweden sux...
The only thing they can do is stuff for EU cars...
Don't even know where to start on an american car...


Thanks!
It feels a lot better now!

Reg's
//Per A
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post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-24-2003, 03:59 PM
 
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Well I'm convinced that there is WOT retard at launch becase EVERY 4.6 TBird I have driving blows butt if you mash it campard to jerking %70 throttle but I guess it could be a number of different things... I don't think its weight transfer though.

anyway, I have seen a device for sale in a Summit or Jegs catalog for like 120 bucks that says it gets rid of WOT retard on 4.6l engines.

Anyone used these?? or even seen them?

Jake
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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-24-2003, 04:20 PM
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originally posted by "Big Willy Style"

Quote:
As somebody who knows once explained to me, the stock programming is set to pull timing slightly at abrupt positive throttle changes. It only does it for a few seconds, but when you stomp it, the spark is retarded slightly. This is again to improve the "feel" for granny should she accidently floor it. The increase in accelleration will be softened somewhat by reducing power output slightly via retarded timing.

so yes, assuming Sir will's info is correct, you dont need to fret, you arent crazy.

as far as that unit, I havent ever heard of it before.

math > pasta
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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-24-2003, 04:29 PM
 
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You are correct....there is a WOT retard program built into our EEC's so
grannys don't experience hard shifts......I don't know how the Summit/Jegs
kits work....maybe fine....but the interrelationships between transmission
and engine performance are complicated at the very least.

Your best choice to remove the retard function is a Ford.chip
style chip or one of it's cousins......as the reprogram, as you probably
know, was written by one of the 4R70W's designers (among other things).

Last edited by MagerThom; 10-26-2003 at 10:18 PM.
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