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post #1 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-15-2011, 11:24 PM Thread Starter
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Scrapping the 4.6L altogether...

Since I don't know what to replace it with, I'm posting here in the 4.6L area since my 95 Thunderbird was originally equipped with one.

I was going to build a late model 4.6L engine but I've sold all of the good stuff I had for that build because I've chosen that I don't want to work on my own car with such a wide engine. For me, it just takes the fun out of it and I'm all about fun when it comes to cars.

This said, I'd be curious on the options. I'm mostly resigned in myself to build a 347 with a Kenne Bell. However, the pill I'm finding tough to swallow is the iron block part of it. The original 4.6L was iron block alumn. heads, but I really appreciated the upgrade of an all aluminum engine with the DOHC swap. That goes away with the 347ci.

The other option is a new Coyote 302 engine. This seems to be a more narrow DOHC engine and there is gonna be plenty of them to go around... I just don't know if it is going to be narrow enough to make a difference from the 4.6L DOHC.

Any thoughts (please don't bother with the "what's a cooler engine". I agree the coyote is far more cool... BUT if its gonna be a nuckle buster like the 4.6 than its not worth it.

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post #2 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 01:01 AM
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Unless you got $12k plus, the coyote is not an option
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post #3 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 01:16 AM
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With a twin screwed 347 a factory 302 block won't last long. They do make aluminum blocks for them though.

-Matt
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post #4 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 03:51 AM
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That high powered 5.0 stuff is cool but its not going to be easy with that year of bird. You should get a 5.0 bird if you want a 5.0 based engine. Just saying

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post #5 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 04:20 AM
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Do the unthinkable/impossible and enjoy the knuckle busting action of 5.4L DOHC!

-1996 Pearl White Thunderbird 4.6 Sport 4v with many mods:
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post #6 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 08:37 AM
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i say 351.
plenty of room leftover
the "iron" blocks will support 800 HP.
more displacement.
bolts right in with factory parts.

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post #7 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 10:09 AM
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World products does make aluminum 302 and 351 blocks, so if you have a spare $6K, you could pick one of those up.

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post #8 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 10:32 AM
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I say, 351...Cleveland. The 4V headed variety.

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post #9 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 01:01 PM
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5.0L DOHC Coyote Dimensions

Here's the Dimensions of 3 Modular Engines..That should help you decide which Engine will fit best..


5.0L DOHC
28" Length
26" Height
27-1/2" Wide

4.6L DOHC
28" Length
29-7/8" Height
30" Wide

4.6L SOHC
28" Length
26" Height
28-5/8" Wide




Rayo...

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post #10 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 05:40 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
World products does make aluminum 302 and 351 blocks, so if you have a spare $6K, you could pick one of those up.
Yeah, that's exactly why I don't want to go the route of an alumn block if I go the direction of the 302, or the 351 for that matter.

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post #11 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 05:42 PM Thread Starter
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Unless you got $12k plus, the coyote is not an option
Yeah, I know the coyote isn't cheap now, but that's because its brand new. In a couple of few years it isn't going to be as bad. Kind of like the LS GM engines. They're rediculas reasonable now, I mean you can get a while car with an LS1 for under a grand. Generally you score that, you can part a remainder of the car out and break even - thus getting the LS for $0

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post #12 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 05:44 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayo View Post
Here's the Dimensions of 3 Modular Engines..That should help you decide which Engine will fit best..


5.0L DOHC
28" Length
26" Height
27-1/2" Wide

4.6L DOHC
28" Length
29-7/8" Height
30" Wide

4.6L SOHC
28" Length
26" Height
28-5/8" Wide




Rayo...
I was pretty certain there was only a 3" difference between the 4.6L DOHC and the new 5.0L DOHC. I know that little bit can make a difference, but I don't think enough.

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post #13 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 05:47 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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That high powered 5.0 stuff is cool but its not going to be easy with that year of bird. You should get a 5.0 bird if you want a 5.0 based engine. Just saying
I can't walk away from the one I have. It has the interior I like and I have already started body mods and suspension upgrades. I know a lot of that can be converted over, but then I'd have to swap interiors... I think I'd just be trading one pain in the *** for another.

If the earlier birds came with a 5.0 I'm not following why getting one in a 95 would be that difficult? I haven't looked at the details on that swap, but why wouldn't it be factory parts to get the engine in (i.e. engine mounts for example)?

"Behold, I am coming quickly..." Rev. 22:12-13NKJV
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post #14 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 05:52 PM Thread Starter
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With a twin screwed 347 a factory 302 block won't last long. They do make aluminum blocks for them though.
See, I need to look into this kind of stuff too. I'm sure there are aftermarket blocks (alumn, and iron alike)... if I go with a 302 I'd have to see what's out there.

I don't know if the factory 351 has any better chance... perhaps a lightning motor... I don't know if those were DOHC engines or not, I'm suspect that they are.

I like being able to get a late model 302 from an explorer to start with... funny thing is, I wait like, what, 3 years here in MD and I'll be able to put historic tags on it so emmissions will not be a concern to worry about whether its an OBII 302 donor car or not. I need to do some research and see what engines ford has to choose from between the years of like 89 to 99 or something like that.

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post #15 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 05:53 PM Thread Starter
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Do the unthinkable/impossible and enjoy the knuckle busting action of 5.4L DOHC!
Ha ha, no... no thanks, I hink I'm gonna pass on that.

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post #16 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 06:01 PM
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First gen Lightning motors are just GT40 HCI equipped roller 351 windsors. Second gens were just 5.4 2Vs with a blower.

If I were to go 302 based I'd look into the Ford racing offerings, they have a broad selection of strong blocks these days. Otherwise a factory 351W will handle just about anything you'd want to throw at it.

-Matt

Last edited by XR7-4.6; 05-16-2011 at 06:08 PM.
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post #17 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 06:24 PM
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Anyone ever drop a Cleveland in these cars or any other 335 series motor? That would be cool.

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post #18 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 07:22 PM
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There's a few but it's really not worth these days. The only ones any good were made in a 4 year period and the modified series are bigger boat anchors than the 5.4 2V. The Windsor just has so much more modern go fast parts available, the Cleveland parts are scarce and expensive and really not much good unless your doing a period restoration.

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post #19 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 08:59 PM
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My friend had a Diamond Jubilee Thunderbird (76 I think) with the 351C and a 2 barrel. That thing was a dog. I think it ran 18-19s in the quarter. I have also heard you can change the rods and crank and make it into a 400M, but he never did it.

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post #20 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 09:03 PM Thread Starter
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First gen Lightning motors are just GT40 HCI equipped roller 351 windsors. Second gens were just 5.4 2Vs with a blower.

If I were to go 302 based I'd look into the Ford racing offerings, they have a broad selection of strong blocks these days. Otherwise a factory 351W will handle just about anything you'd want to throw at it.
A supercharged 5.4L 2V would be great, but with overhead cams its probably exactly like having the original 4.6L SOHC engine, as far as footprint is concerned.

If I was gonna do that though, I should have just kept everything I just sold. I think I need to go with a pushrod engine. The first gen Lightning 351 for a 1995 is most likely what I'm gonna need to go with.

Anyone have any clue what other cars were equipped with the 1st gen lightning engine - and are there "better" and "worse" ones to look for or stay away from?
It sucks... I noticed Kenne Bell doesn't offer a supercharger for a 1st gen lightning.

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post #21 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 09:05 PM
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post #22 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mercury267 View Post
Anyone have any clue what other cars were equipped with the 1st gen lightning engine - and are there "better" and "worse" ones to look for or stay away from?
It sucks... I noticed Kenne Bell doesn't offer a supercharger for a 1st gen lightning.
The 95 Cobra R lol You'll have to piece it together if you don't source it from a lightning. Any blower for a 5.0 should fit as long as you use the 351 lower intake. You need the SN95 or tbird acessories and brackets too.

If real estate is that much of a concern you may as well build a 3.8. No V8 fits well in one of these fully dressed. SBF's are long and tall and modulars are wide and tall.

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post #23 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
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My friend had a Diamond Jubilee Thunderbird (76 I think) with the 351C and a 2 barrel. That thing was a dog. I think it ran 18-19s in the quarter. I have also heard you can change the rods and crank and make it into a 400M, but he never did it.
76 Would be the 351M, Clevelands were 70-74. The 351M is really nothing more than a destroked 400, same tall deck blocks, heads, intakes ect., both are dogs.

Sounds more like a 77-79 as well, I don't think you could get the 72-76 birds with anything less than the 400.

-Matt

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post #24 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 09:47 PM
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Try to beat the explorer swap for easy swap and bump in power. I mean I wouldnt fight the upgraded 2v swap, I really wouldnt. Maybe you can be like that guy who swapped in a supra motor LOL, something totally different.

Spinning pies like wheels.

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Now with new ball joints...again
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post #25 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-17-2011, 07:43 AM
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post #26 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-17-2011, 08:29 AM
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read post 6, any, which means the weakest 351W block will support 800 hp all day.

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post #27 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-17-2011, 08:58 AM
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I can't walk away from the one I have. It has the interior I like and I have already started body mods and suspension upgrades. I know a lot of that can be converted over, but then I'd have to swap interiors... I think I'd just be trading one pain in the *** for another.

If the earlier birds came with a 5.0 I'm not following why getting one in a 95 would be that difficult? I haven't looked at the details on that swap, but why wouldn't it be factory parts to get the engine in (i.e. engine mounts for example)?
Because 1994-1997 are OBDII. You will have to ditch your 4r70w for an AOD or C4. Then you will have to swap out the PCM if you go EFI. It will be a s**t load of work to put a 302/351 in your '95. I don't beleive motor mounts are availlable from Ford or aftermarket for our cars anymore. Someone here at one time was making custom motor mounts.
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post #28 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-17-2011, 09:28 AM Thread Starter
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so then what are you gonna do?
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The 95 Cobra R lol You'll have to piece it together if you don't source it from a lightning. Any blower for a 5.0 should fit as long as you use the 351 lower intake. You need the SN95 or tbird acessories and brackets too.

If real estate is that much of a concern you may as well build a 3.8. No V8 fits well in one of these fully dressed. SBF's are long and tall and modulars are wide and tall.
Yeah, I'm not even gonna try and find actual "cobra R" items... I'd presume the name tag jumps the price quite a bit. I would be intersted in the Lightning engine though. I have the 95 accessory brackets from the car already... would just need to send then out to get 'em pretty'd up.

Can't do the 3.8, I like the sound of V8s too much... a V8 powerplant and rumble is just so much of the hotrod hobby for me. Every "play" car I'v eever owned was a V8.

Thanks very much - this info has been VERY helpful to get me pointed in a direction to research a new engine option. I think a lightning engine is gonna be the initial plan here - unless I learn something terrible that prevents it from happening.

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post #29 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-17-2011, 09:30 AM Thread Starter
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Try to beat the explorer swap for easy swap and bump in power. I mean I wouldnt fight the upgraded 2v swap, I really wouldnt. Maybe you can be like that guy who swapped in a supra motor LOL, something totally different.
I'm not looking to be that different. If I was I'd drop in a (gulp) LS or HEMI engine.

... ha, as though one of these would be any easier or fit any better, just sayin' though - that idea would be on the table for me prior to an import powerplant.

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Last edited by mercury267; 05-17-2011 at 09:31 AM. Reason: Additional comment...
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post #30 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-17-2011, 09:41 AM Thread Starter
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Because 1994-1997 are OBDII. You will have to ditch your 4r70w for an AOD or C4. Then you will have to swap out the PCM if you go EFI. It will be a s**t load of work to put a 302/351 in your '95. I don't beleive motor mounts are availlable from Ford or aftermarket for our cars anymore. Someone here at one time was making custom motor mounts.
I'm with the understanding that post 1995 cars are OBDII. I know my 95 Tbird is OBDI.
My original plan was to install a GM t56 (using the GM becaue of the gearing is close to that of the SC 5 peed tranny, which I figure the factory gear selection is rated for our size cars and the shifter location is just an inch off from the SC factory 5 speed shifter location). I parted a 94 manual SC for all of the components needed for a manual swap. I'm currently storing the stering column, pedals, console, etc.

If the motor mounts are not available, I'll get a set made if need be... this isn't the concern I have. If so I'd pick a different car all together. As an example, all the exterior moldings are discontinued so if I didn't have them already, when I repaint the car I'd have to used a bunch of faded cracked up exterior moldings which just makes a freshly painted car look like poo.
I bought a lot of these discontinued items by locating NOS parts and am storing them for use after the car is painted.

The IRS is also something I've made a provision with. I want to retain an IRS but don't like that shafts break at the outer hub, so I bought a 2003 Cobra IRS for the axle shafts and I parted a Lincold Mark VIII for the alumn arms. I'm going to have a similar IRS rear as Mike's so I know its right. This is also going to require custom made pieces but it will be so much stronger and worth it in the long run.

"Behold, I am coming quickly..." Rev. 22:12-13NKJV
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Last edited by mercury267; 05-22-2011 at 02:47 PM.
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