Inside the CCRM (Constant Control Relay Module) - TCCoA Forums
 
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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-26-2011, 11:10 AM Thread Starter
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Smile Inside the CCRM (Constant Control Relay Module)

I got bored sitting here today and had a couple of CCRMs lying around, so the curiosity got the best of me and I figured I should drill out the rivets and look inside.

I've seen various threads with these things on many boards but no one seems to know exactly what's in there (we all know it's relays).

So here it is. You can see the Bosch relays and part numbers. This may help people wanting/needing to use regular relays instead of a CCRM.

CCRM Part #: F6SF-12B577-AA
Bosch relays: 0-332-019-162




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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-26-2011, 01:29 PM
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Here's the relay data:

http://www.bpg-inc.com/std_mini.htm

5th one down in first table.

The two omron relays are special, apparently. They don't show up in anything but surplus places.

These are all available on ebay.

Yank the relays, and post pix; I'll help make a schematic drawing.

I'd like to do all the boxes eventually.

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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-26-2011, 01:35 PM
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but the thing is how do you change one of the relays?? just unplug them or are soldered?

Alfonso De Anda
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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-26-2011, 01:39 PM Thread Starter
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They are soldered, you can't change just a rely you need to replace the entire CCRM and I don't think they make them anymore

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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-26-2011, 01:44 PM
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or just wire your own relay.

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May you fly low and fast
rest in peace JL
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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-26-2011, 01:51 PM
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They are soldered, you can't change just a rely you need to replace the entire CCRM and I don't think they make them anymore
Freakin wimps! Find a homebrew electronics nerd to do it! Offer to change his oil or something.
Read down to Mikey's POST!!!!
The Omrons {dont bother searching the Omron site}

http://www.google.com/search?q=omron+G8H-UA-007108

http://www.google.com/search?q=omron+G8SN-UA-007116
- notice that relay is of particular interest for A/C operation.

What's the transistor markings?

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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-26-2011, 01:53 PM
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Actually the relays themselves hardly ever go bad. What happens is the solder joints become brittle and the vibration causes them to crack and not complete the path to the relay. If you have one that isn't working, take it apart like that, and re-solder all the connections, and it will be as good as new.

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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-26-2011, 01:57 PM
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I'm dumb. What does the CCRM control?
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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-26-2011, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
Actually the relays themselves hardly ever go bad. What happens is the solder joints become brittle and the vibration causes them to crack and not complete the path to the relay. If you have one that isn't working, take it apart like that, and re-solder all the connections, and it will be as good as new.
Mikey's right! I fixed a guy's furnace control board .. flaky burner valve opeation. Just by understanding how to 'flex test'. - little as possible movement thn probing the board with small screwdriver to localize, then resolder.

Half these guys would botch it mikey. And wont bother to google 'basic solder technique'
Like I said... Know anybody at all? It's cake to an electronic tech.

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I'm dumb. What does the CCRM control?
Most of your car's creature comforts. Base models often dont have them
-ooops. May be wrong again. Or am I?

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I do it just because I still want to know HOW and WHY!!! Quit learning=die. Be informed as to WHAT, rather than learn,=brain-dead already.
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-26-2011, 02:05 PM
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A/C, fuel pump, PCM, and cooling fan

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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-26-2011, 03:08 PM
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Mikey's right! I fixed a guy's furnace control board .. flaky burner valve opeation. Just by understanding how to 'flex test'. - little as possible movement thn probing the board with small screwdriver to localize, then resolder.
I spray the pcb with flux, hit the points that need solder with a syringe full of kester 44 paste, and hit them with a heat gun until the solder melts across the board.

Takes 5 minutes, max; and you don't even have to localize it.

I can unsolder and resolder those, but as the man said, solder is usually the problem.

5 minutes of my time to not to have to find and get a $30 part is more my speed.

Oh, the transistors are drivers; you can tell by the center Collector lead. Any >25V transistor with that pinout, rated for ~1A, will work. If you replace transistors, replace the diodes too.

The transistors are labelled ECB on the circuit board, it looks like. The flat side is not always the same, so check the data sheet.

I use digikey for stuff like this; they also sell tons of leds, if you need to make up the minimum order...

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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-26-2011, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
I spray the pcb with flux, hit the points that need solder with a syringe full of kester 44 paste, and hit them with a heat gun until the solder melts across the board.

Takes 5 minutes, max; and you don't even have to localize it. ...
Now that is genius!

Special request: Any of you guys want to try that, especially if you've never done anything like that before or used a heat gun, PLEASE video it!


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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-26-2011, 09:32 PM Thread Starter
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or just wire your own relay.
That too 

The only thing marked on the transistors is "G4R" or "64R".

Caps are 47uf 10v, 1uf 63v and the small ceramic one I can't make out markings on.


Even if you get an electronics hobbyist to make you the unit, you would need to have the big connector for plug and play operation, or wire it all in yourself which may be beyond some people.

Hell I don't understand this thing entirely and I'm pretty decent with electrical stuff.

For instance, why there are two blue wires and two brown/orange wires that control high and low speed fan but they both splice into a single wire each on the fan.
2 wires come off the fan then break Into four on the CCRM, but according to the EVTM each of the same colored wires goes to the same pin on the relay.

Wtf Ford?!!? Just use one bloody wire.

Rest In Peace Mom.
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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-26-2011, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRNDPNDR View Post

For instance, why there are two blue wires and two brown/orange wires that control high and low speed fan but they both splice into a single wire each on the fan.
2 wires come off the fan then break Into four on the CCRM, but according to the EVTM each of the same colored wires goes to the same pin on the relay.

Wtf Ford?!!? Just use one bloody wire.
Take a good look at those two wires coming off the connector and the wire going to the fan. Then have a look at the terminals in the CCRM and it's connector.

Sometimes when there's seemingly odd things on paper, reality can make sense out of them. In this case using one single wire sized according to the CCRM terminals wouldn't handle the current load the cooling fan draws. The solution? split the circuit into two terminals and effectively double the wire size before splicing to the single large gauge wire towards the motor.

-Matt

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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-26-2011, 09:59 PM
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Half these guys would botch it mikey. And wont bother to google 'basic solder technique'
Like I said... Know anybody at all? It's cake to an electronic tech.
Pie, Pettyfog. Pie.

I prefer pie over cake

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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-26-2011, 11:37 PM Thread Starter
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Take a good look at those two wires coming off the connector and the wire going to the fan. Then have a look at the terminals in the CCRM and it's connector.

Sometimes when there's seemingly odd things on paper, reality can make sense out of them. In this case using one single wire sized according to the CCRM terminals wouldn't handle the current load the cooling fan draws. The solution? split the circuit into two terminals and effectively double the wire size before splicing to the single large gauge wire towards the motor.
That crossed my mind....but they designed this thing, along with many other unique parts. Why not just do what they did with the firewall plug and make some of the pins larger for bigger wire?

Just sayin'. :-)


If you look at the bottom of this open one it looks like the contact pads are starting to bubble under the epoxy coating covering the board.

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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 12:26 AM
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The C103 plug isn't restricted with space constraints or engineering cost the CCRM connector/terminal strips are(also terminals in the firewall connector are all exactly the same size, just the wiring is different) and the funny thing is, that connector splits the big power circuits in the exact manner as the cooling fans right before and after the ignition switch for the blower. That's just one example, It's done all over the car.

-Matt

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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 05:55 AM
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That's just one example, It's done all over the car.
And it's much cheaper that way, believe me.

2x $.0001 or 1x $.01 is a big difference, when you are making 200k of something...

If you already use 500 of something, adding one or two more isn't expensive. Having one odd part to order, track, and deal with gets expensive fast. And they're always backordered, lol.

We have guys who's job it it to try to make me use cheaper parts... I prefer to make it work first, then take the cost out. Much easier.

There's nothing like the sound on the other end of the phone when you ask "So what's your best delivery on 250,000 of these?" I have yet to hear "We'll ship those right out."

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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 08:37 AM Thread Starter
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The C103 plug isn't restricted with space constraints or engineering cost the CCRM connector/terminal strips are(also terminals in the firewall connector are all exactly the same size, just the wiring is different) and the funny thing is, that connector splits the big power circuits in the exact manner as the cooling fans right before and after the ignition switch for the blower. That's just one example, It's done all over the car.
Touché, I did in fact forget those pins are all the same size.

These methods seem odd on an individual scale I guess, but mass quantities do add up.

The thing is though, they created a specialty part that might not have needed to be created, so it's almost the same as making a special plug. They took relays and stuffed them into a little metal box.

I tend to think on kind of an organized scale which isn't always cost effective, but they could have just stuck the relays in the distro box. From an engineering standpoint they would have just needed to change a few small things to make it fit in there, and the wires could have been a little neater.

Not that it matters really they did what they did for the reasons they did it. Those reasons are really unknown to me but I'm guessing if I was there it would all make sense

Rest In Peace Mom.
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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 10:34 AM
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Here is a link to DirtyDog's thread on replacing the relays with a common relay. I figure these two threads compliment each other. http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=132987

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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRNDPNDR View Post
Touché, I did in fact forget those pins are all the same size.

These methods seem odd on an individual scale I guess, but mass quantities do add up.

The thing is though, they created a specialty part that might not have needed to be created, so it's almost the same as making a special plug. They took relays and stuffed them into a little metal box.

I tend to think on kind of an organized scale which isn't always cost effective, but they could have just stuck the relays in the distro box. From an engineering standpoint they would have just needed to change a few small things to make it fit in there, and the wires could have been a little neater.

Not that it matters really they did what they did for the reasons they did it. Those reasons are really unknown to me but I'm guessing if I was there it would all make sense
You're thinking in terms of one car with one powertrain option, the basis for the CCRMs existence was to make adapting a car with a predetermined base wiring configuration with only basic electronics and a clutch fan such as a Base or LX Tbird (which didn't use CCRMs until 1994) easily plug and play on the assembly line and become a loaded high tech machine like a SC without having to make up new power distribution blocks, redo harness layouts, ect. ect.

This was the case for the first few cars that used it and because it was to be mounted into channels like the core support it had to be compact enough to fit (thus using a smaller connector with small terminals). The other thing is the wires themselves. In a wiring harness that needs to be able to flex during installation or service, smaller diameter wires are much much more flexible than large wiring like what's found towards the fan connector.

-Matt
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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 02:05 PM
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The thing is though, they created a specialty part that might not have needed to be created, so it's almost the same as making a special plug. They took relays and stuffed them into a little metal box.
This box is likely in a bunch of cars, and it would be a breeze to test.

I bet I could get this made for $10 in oem quantity, and I bet Ford did better than that, lol.

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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 03:32 PM Thread Starter
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You're thinking in terms of one car with one powertrain option, the basis for the CCRMs existence was to make adapting a car with a predetermined base wiring configuration with only basic electronics and a clutch fan such as a Base or LX Tbird (which didn't use CCRMs until 1994) easily plug and play on the assembly line and become a loaded high tech machine like a SC without having to make up new power distribution blocks, redo harness layouts, ect. ect.

This was the case for the first few cars that used it and because it was to be mounted into channels like the core support it had to be compact enough to fit (thus using a smaller connector with small terminals). The other thing is the wires themselves. In a wiring harness that needs to be able to flex during installation or service, smaller diameter wires are much much more flexible than large wiring like what's found towards the fan connector.
You are just LOADED with good information aren't you lol. Did you work for Ford or something ? I mean it makes perfect sense from that standpoint these are just things I tend not to think about really.

Cars do have a lot of different options don't they

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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 07:32 PM
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Haha no, not yet anyway I subscribe to the reverse engineering method of DIY education, 80s+ Fords have really interesting technical backgrounds(to me at least) which keeps me interested. Plus my brain is a sponge for useless car knowledge lol

-Matt
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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 07:46 PM Thread Starter
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I absolutely LOVE reverse engineering

that's part of the reason for Project Gemini

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post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-29-2015, 01:51 PM
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/MUSTANG-GT-C...31917c&vxp=mtr


This is the same part number so it should work right?
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post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-29-2015, 05:40 PM
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F6S=96 bird...so, yes

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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-30-2015, 12:52 AM
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Ahh dang it. I thought it said F5S. I have a 95. I don't want to put that F6S in my car do I?
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post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-30-2015, 09:53 AM
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It's identical.

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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-30-2015, 11:19 AM
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Original part number: F4ZZ-12B577-A
Original engineering number: F48F-12B577-AA

Supercession P/N F6SZ-12B577-AA
Supercession Engineering number F6SF-12B577-AB

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