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post #61 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-29-2019, 05:25 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
How many amps are the toggle switches rated for? Personally I don't think you need that ignition switch power relay at all, it's not going to draw much current through the switch just energizing that secondary fuse box relay coil and starter solenoid. Also it wont work as drawn, you'd need a separate power source for the coil to energize it. As is the coil can't be energized since the power source for it is switched by the relay.

Everything else seems good.
There is not a lot of information about the rating for the panel. The wires on the indicator lights are about 18awg. All indications based on that are that it's probably not more than 20-30amps. However, the main power cables that come with it are all 10awg. What I have read is that it's recommended to use the switches in conjunction with a relay.

You mentioned making some changes but I don't see them.

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post #62 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-29-2019, 11:06 AM
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All the load in that switch is going to be from relays and the starter solenoid which shouldn’t be more than 20-30 amps max anyway. Did you get the email I sent? Only change I made was running the red wire straight from the main fuse box directly to the switch and getting rid of that relay for it.

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post #63 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-29-2019, 12:05 PM Thread Starter
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All the load in that switch is going to be from relays and the starter solenoid which shouldn’t be more than 20-30 amps max anyway. Did you get the email I sent? Only change I made was running the red wire straight from the main fuse box directly to the switch and getting rid of that relay for it.
OK. I got the email but it doesn't show anything different.

Basically, it sounds like I could drop both relays and just use the switch itself. Does that sound right?

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post #64 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-31-2019, 01:34 PM
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I overbuilt my wiring to my starter just to insure that it was getting enough current - I think i used 4GA wire from the killswitch to the starter relay.

One place where I found my wiring to be inadequate was from my main power junction to my two SPAL fans. While the wires running to the fans themselves were of adequate gauge (8-12 gauge maybe), things got a little melty at the last bit of wire that came with the plugs I bought on eBay to match the Bosch style relays (which was 16ga).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/20-SETS-Aut...-/172882429239

To prevent things from melting again (or worse - catching fire), I ended up replacing the wiring all the way to the female spade connector going into the fan's relay plug on the current carrying wires with the same wire thickness I used for the fans.

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post #65 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-31-2019, 04:48 PM Thread Starter
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I overbuilt my wiring to my starter just to insure that it was getting enough current - I think i used 4GA wire from the killswitch to the starter relay.

One place where I found my wiring to be inadequate was from my main power junction to my two SPAL fans. While the wires running to the fans themselves were of adequate gauge (8-12 gauge maybe), things got a little melty at the last bit of wire that came with the plugs I bought on eBay to match the Bosch style relays (which was 16ga).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/20-SETS-Aut...-/172882429239

To prevent things from melting again (or worse - catching fire), I ended up replacing the wiring all the way to the female spade connector going into the fan's relay plug on the current carrying wires with the same wire thickness I used for the fans.
I'm actually running 1/0 wire for my starter, kill switch and battery positives. I'm running 2 gauge wire for the ground cable on the battery. I have a MK8 fan and I ran 10 gauge wire for it originally so I'll probably stick with that because I intend the wire run to be short. However, I'm actually running a Flex-a-lite fan controller to manage the spin up amperage.

Yeah, I understand the overbuilt concept.

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post #66 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
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See my questions in the picture. As I'm doing the wiring I'm beginning to question some of my plans.
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-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
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post #67 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 11:37 AM
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One of those wires might be the "keep Alive" Memory for the eec, so that should be hot always (I'd find it and run it separately, adding a 9V battery and diode to this circuit will preserve your settings when the big off switch is open, but won't run the car.); but the rest should be switched, IMHO.

I'd switch them with a big relay, not the ignition switch; the fuel pump and coils will want full voltage.

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post #68 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 12:11 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
One of those wires might be the "keep Alive" Memory for the eec, so that should be hot always (I'd find it and run it separately, adding a 9V battery and diode to this circuit will preserve your settings when the big off switch is open, but won't run the car.); but the rest should be switched, IMHO.

I'd switch them with a big relay, not the ignition switch; the fuel pump and coils will want full voltage.
OK, so...the answer is that the fuel pump and EEC relay are both "switched". In the original configuration they are both not going through the ignition. They go straight from the Power Distribution box to the the relay. From the relay to the devices. That section of the box only gets power when the ignition is in Start/Run. My intentions are to move their connections to the secondary fuse box because I don't have split power boxes. Does that sound right?

I like the idea of running the Keep Alive Memory connection on a 9v battery. I may incorporate that.

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post #69 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 01:25 PM
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OK, so...the answer is that the fuel pump and EEC relay are both "switched". In the original configuration they are both not going through the ignition. They go straight from the Power Distribution box to the the relay. From the relay to the devices. That section of the box only gets power when the ignition is in Start/Run. My intentions are to move their connections to the secondary fuse box because I don't have split power boxes. Does that sound right?

I like the idea of running the Keep Alive Memory connection on a 9v battery. I may incorporate that.
That sounds right to me.


Don't forget the diode with the 9v battery, or the 9v explodes from the car battery.

If the diode is in line with the positive terminal on the 9v battery, the line on the diode goes toward the load, not the battery.

I used to use this trick when I installed stereos in cars to keep customers complaining their car wasn't running right after an install. (Clearing the memory on an older car makes it run bad if it's poorly maintained, lol)

I made a deal that plugged into the cig. lighter plug; plug it in, and yank the battery loose.

It will last a few days, if the eec isn't drawing too much current. (Most are about 3mA)

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
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post #70 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 01:43 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
That sounds right to me.


Don't forget the diode with the 9v battery, or the 9v explodes from the car battery.

If the diode is in line with the positive terminal on the 9v battery, the line on the diode goes toward the load, not the battery.

I used to use this trick when I installed stereos in cars to keep customers complaining their car wasn't running right after an install. (Clearing the memory on an older car makes it run bad if it's poorly maintained, lol)

I made a deal that plugged into the cig. lighter plug; plug it in, and yank the battery loose.

It will last a few days, if the eec isn't drawing too much current. (Most are about 3mA)
OK. Right now I'm much more worried about the wiring for the EEC and Fuel Pump than I am for the 9v battery but I'll keep that in mind.

How big of a diode by the way?

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post #71 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 01:58 PM
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How big of a diode by the way?
Small; a 1n4001 will work fine, it's only supposed to supply ~20mA max.
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post #72 of 80 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 09:24 PM Thread Starter
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Small; a 1n4001 will work fine, it's only supposed to supply ~20mA max.
It looks like I may have need of this. Could I just connect a 9v battery with resistor to the circuit for Keep Alive Memory for the ECM?

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post #73 of 80 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 10:38 PM
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It looks like I may have need of this. Could I just connect a 9v battery with resistor to the circuit for Keep Alive Memory for the ECM?
1N4001, and a battery.

Again, you don't want to try to pump 14V into a 9V battery.

Unless you're into wild and exciting explosions wherever you put that 9V battery ...

I'd use two - one form th ebattery to the ECM, one from the 9V to the ECM, with the bars together and going to the ECM.

But I'm paranoid that way.

(If the diode drop worries you, another relay can be used for this; but that's actually overcomplicating it IMO.)

RwP

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post #74 of 80 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 05:29 AM Thread Starter
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1N4001, and a battery.

Again, you don't want to try to pump 14V into a 9V battery.

Unless you're into wild and exciting explosions wherever you put that 9V battery ...

I'd use two - one form th ebattery to the ECM, one from the 9V to the ECM, with the bars together and going to the ECM.

But I'm paranoid that way.

(If the diode drop worries you, another relay can be used for this; but that's actually overcomplicating it IMO.)

RwP
OK, using the attached diagram, where along the yellow wire would I place the battery and resistor?
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File Type: jpg PCMRelayDiagram.jpg (45.5 KB, 13 views)

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1992 Ford Thunderbird SC

Coast High Peformance 347 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
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post #75 of 80 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 07:05 AM
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OK, using the attached diagram, where along the yellow wire would I place the battery and resistor?
No resistor.

Put one diode in the yellow wire, band towards the ECU.

Tie the band of the other diode to the same point.

Put the other end of the second diode to the + terminal of the 9V battery.

Ground the - terminal.

That way, you don't accidently try to run the car off the 9V battery, and you don't try to charge that 9V off the alternator.

Both can lead to an energetic electrical event (read: Explosion and/or fire).

Hence the two diodes.

If you're really concerned, grab a 1N5401 - that's a 3A diode, but otherwise can be used like a 1N4001.

(The last two digits increase with voltage; a 1N5404 or higher might not be a BAD idea in case of higher voltage induced spikes. But I'm paranoid about car electrical systems - I tend to oversize stuff like that. YMMV natch.)

The 1N4000 and 1N5400 series are cheap enough; https://www.mpja.com/1N5405-3A-500PI...info/32916+DI/ has five of the 500V PIV units. (The 100V PIV units are the same price, so eh on which one to use.)

RwP

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post #76 of 80 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 09:26 AM Thread Starter
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No resistor.

Put one diode in the yellow wire, band towards the ECU.

Tie the band of the other diode to the same point.

Put the other end of the second diode to the + terminal of the 9V battery.

Ground the - terminal.

That way, you don't accidently try to run the car off the 9V battery, and you don't try to charge that 9V off the alternator.

Both can lead to an energetic electrical event (read: Explosion and/or fire).

Hence the two diodes.

If you're really concerned, grab a 1N5401 - that's a 3A diode, but otherwise can be used like a 1N4001.

(The last two digits increase with voltage; a 1N5404 or higher might not be a BAD idea in case of higher voltage induced spikes. But I'm paranoid about car electrical systems - I tend to oversize stuff like that. YMMV natch.)

The 1N4000 and 1N5400 series are cheap enough; https://www.mpja.com/1N5405-3A-500PI...info/32916+DI/ has five of the 500V PIV units. (The 100V PIV units are the same price, so eh on which one to use.)

RwP
OK, so the circuit to the PCM relay is 30A. I think that I might need the first diode to be 30A. Is that correct?

See my diagram to see if I have this correct.
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File Type: png PCMDiagram_with_Diode&9v.png (48.5 KB, 11 views)

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
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-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.27 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
M5R2
Burned Chip for SN95 T4M0 ECM
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post #77 of 80 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 12:41 PM
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I can mail you a diode and a battery clip.

As was said, the thing should go in the line between the connector and the eec; + terminal of battery to non-banded end of diode, band on the diode toward the eec.
Ground to ground.

This will hold up the eec voltage; any other loads will suck it dry, so check the current draw with it all off, and make sure it's below 20mA or so.

The keep-alive-memory should draw about 3mA, off.


Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
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post #78 of 80 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 12:52 PM
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No.

Band of BOTH diodes to PCM pin 1.

As is, you just created an alkaline bomb with that diode to the 9V battery; all it's going to do is run the car battery into the 9V, it won't do squat for the PCM.

Band to MORE NEGATIVE side of any circuit for rectification and current blocking; keep that in mind, it'll help.


But you don't need to diode to the relay; but into the PCM. Consider what you're trying to do; the PCM is the only part that needs the extra 9V, so that's where it's introduced.

RwP

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post #79 of 80 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 04:40 PM Thread Starter
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No.

Band of BOTH diodes to PCM pin 1.

As is, you just created an alkaline bomb with that diode to the 9V battery; all it's going to do is run the car battery into the 9V, it won't do squat for the PCM.

Band to MORE NEGATIVE side of any circuit for rectification and current blocking; keep that in mind, it'll help.


But you don't need to diode to the relay; but into the PCM. Consider what you're trying to do; the PCM is the only part that needs the extra 9V, so that's where it's introduced.

RwP
Yep. Don't want to create a bomb. Forgive my use of the high end graphics editing program I used (MS Paint).

If I send 30A into the relay, why am I not effectively sending 30A into the PCM? Just trying to learn.

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-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
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post #80 of 80 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 05:48 PM
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Current draw is based on the circuitry, what's in the box and what it want's to eat; Circuit capacity in amps is 30A, based on the wire and relays and such you used, as you want to drive a fuel pump and stuff, but each separate bit draws what it personally needs.
The total needs to be less than that; I use a "60% of max rating" number for designing stuff like that; I like headroom better than redoing it if I need to add "one more thing".

A fuel pump is a good example of a "dynamic electrical load", because it changes how much current it draws, depending on what's happening.
You'd think a 255 walbro would draw the same ~8A across the spectrum of drag racing, but it can be much higher, and then there's the pump-boosting boxes and all that try to fix it.
The big difference is that the 255lph of fuel are Way harder to drive into the pipe if the car is moving (pipe is moving) relative to the fuel.
At ~2G's, the power should be ~4x, ignoring losses.
That doesn't last for long, maybe a second or less, but if the pump stalls from undercurrent, it takes seconds to recover.



I used this exact circuit to keep car eecs alive while I did stereo work on them, WBW. Plugged it into the cigarette lighter, until they started turning them on with transistors, then it has to be clipped in to the fusebox with clips.

I never blew one up.

You only need one diode for a keep alive, as long as the load you're hooking it to is not greater than ~20mA.

You only care about keeping the eec alive; if there are parasitic loads connected to it, I'd move them to a different switch terminal, on a dpdt or 3pdt switch.

The use of two diodes, and isolating the pin, is something I'd have to look into, because some things don't like that.

In my personal opinion, the keep alive only needs to keep everything over 8V; that's the point where the internal regulator has started to droop, and they want a 3V dropout voltage on the 5V (lm7805 family) regulator in the eec. This is years before LDO voltage regulators... but I digress.

If you hook it up as I said above, it can't blow up unless the diode is bad, and/or it's carrying the load into the pin fully powered up.

EHH: I said:
Quote:
As was said, the thing should go in the line between the connector and the eec; + terminal of battery to non-banded end of diode, band on the diode toward the eec.
Ground to ground.
"IN" is not correct there, "TO" is what I should have written. There's only one wire to that pin 1 circuit, the way I've done this; the banded end of the diode. The other terminal of the battery is Ground. Diode only hooks to + battery terminal, and pin1.

As long as it's over 8.4V, the 9v batt is disconnected, with the 1 point hookup.

The problem with 2 diodes, an Isolation Circuit, is that That circuit, pin 1, might draw 10A when everything's else is running at 12v; it likely draws less power when the other circuits are powered down; EEC-V does this.
That makes things complicated; you need to measure the input to that pin under different conditions, to prove the other parts of the circuit.

If it tries to draw 1A when everything's off, it also needs to be rethunk, a 9v won't work for that; and even a 1n5400 used for isolation would blow if pin 1 draws 10A powered up. (IDK, I think EEC KAL is a 7A fuse in my car)

Isolating the pin with diodes is a different problem, and will require some testing; it might work fine, but it might not. I've never tried that, so I can't speak to that.

But I know from experience that if you install this device and the battery gets warm, the battery isn't going to last long.

I use 9V batteries for rocketry, to deploy parachutes using electric matches, and they draw ~3A for .5-2 sec, which is a lot for a tiny battery like that.

I'm not trying to blow up your car, that would be tragic. I just needed to give better detail.



EDIT: I see the graphic now; I didn't see it before.

I wouldn't use the 30A diode you show, but fuck it, it should work fine.
It is rated for the full circuit load, so it should be fine.

These are cheap: https://www.mpja.com/Stud-Diode-85Am...tinfo/34996+DI

If the dark ends are the bands, both bands should be toward each other; the EEC is the load, and "bands (kathodes) go toward the load". (In a negative ground system)
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Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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Last edited by Grog6; 04-09-2019 at 06:05 PM.
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