Narrowing down keyless entry module problem....(battery saver)?? - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-08-2004, 05:58 PM Thread Starter
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Narrowing down keyless entry module problem....(battery saver)??

Still trying to figure out the problem listed in this thread (in case you missed it)...

http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.p...threadid=12807

The problem definetely lies within the small black plug, and according to the wiring diagram, it has something to do with these pins...(from what I can figure)...

(open)
Luggage Compartment Door Solenoid Feed
Battery Saver Input
Battery Saver Output
Battery Saver Output
Park Lamp Input
Battery Power 1
(open)
Luggage Compartment Door Solenoid Feed
Battery Saver Input
Park Lamps Output
Battery Power 2
Horn Relay

What's this "battery saver"? Anyone heard of it?

Like it's posted in the thread above, locks, lights, and horn have been possessed by this. This is the plug that seems to be causing the problem. When it's not plugged in, the car acts fine, but I don't have any of the things that I should (power locks, interior lights, etc). How could this plug tie into the locks and such? Any help is much appreciated.

~Jeff

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post #2 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-09-2004, 01:52 AM
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Do you have an anti-theft device from the factory? That would affect things.

I have some info from a 1989 EVTM, which may have some differences, but I think it would be mostly the same.

The door locks should be wired through the keyless module, and the anti-theft (if you have one) is connected too.

I think that the power for the door locks enters the keyless module first, and then it passes through the lock actuators to ground when you use the lock switch (or the keypad).

The trunk lock solenoid can be powered through the keyless module, or through the switch in the glove box (which bypasses the module).

So, all these things are definitely related to the system.

The 89 keyless module got power at six connector pins. Three were always hot, two were hot only in run, and one was switched by the door handle switches. Clearly, you are getting power through at least some of these wires. And it looks like it's getting to ground somewhere it shouldn't.

I hope this helps somehow. This system's pretty complex, and I'm looking at an 89 book with no remote option, so anything I said may vary from what you've got. But the basics should be the same.

-------------------

Steve

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post #3 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-09-2004, 10:25 AM Thread Starter
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It doesn't have the factory alarm, it just has the lock, unlock, trunk, and panic options on the remote. I want to say that it's not the door lock's causing the problem seeing that they are on the other plug, as are the interior lights. The part I don't understand is that they don't work.

Took the module itself apart. On the board, there seems to be 2 melted spots around the chips at "IC3" and "K6". I'll get a pic up in a few as to what I'm talking about.

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post #4 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-09-2004, 11:26 AM Thread Starter
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Here's a shot of the board...sorry, a little blurry...



This is what I can get from it...

A) You can't really tell, but there's a melted spot on the side.

B) K6...what I can tell, the label for the chip at A.

C) Appears to be majorly melted on the top and somewhat on the side. On the underside of the board, there's a black spot where you can tell it got really hot.

D) IC3...what I can tell, the label for the chip at C.

If someone can find what these "K6" and "IC3" circuits correspond to, it could be a big time saver. Thanks again.

~Jeff

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post #5 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-09-2004, 12:29 PM
 
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That's *EXACTLY* what my blown modules look like! That big square "A" is a melted relay and should be sitting flat on the board. Your module is toast! A new replacement is ~$250. - look for a used one if you can, but open it up first to be sure it also isn't toast.

What's happening in mine is that the underhood short let to other parts of my wiring harness melting/shorting out. I found about a foot long section of wire in the harness under the driver seat that had melted away so bare wire was shorting there also. 'Fixed that, but I still have a short in the system - I'm virtually positive it's behind the left kick panel.

Some weird way Ford set up the wiring bypasses the fuses in certain conditions, so no fuses blow, but the short just goes on to start melting/blowing things. Our situations seem virtually identical - I've been trying to track this down for over a year, including taking it to the dealer, and still haven't got it resolved...
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post #6 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-09-2004, 05:42 PM
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From my wiring diagrams, it looks like there are 4 pins entering the keyless module that are on 15A fused circuits. And one at 20A. I think it may be enough current to fry your board, but not enough to blow a fuse.

Maybe some current is getting in the wrong way past a failed diode. Like the "door ajar diodes" located in the trunk near the module.

-------------------

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post #7 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-09-2004, 08:18 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by S_Mazza

Maybe some current is getting in the wrong way past a failed diode. Like the "door ajar diodes" located in the trunk near the module.
Ok, I don't know that much about electric and these "diodes" you're talking about. Details please. Thanks.

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post #8 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-10-2004, 12:56 AM
 
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The battery saver would probably be the thinger that shuts the interior lights off if left on for more than 45 mins?
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post #9 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-10-2004, 10:29 PM
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Sorry it took me this long to reply. A diode is like a one-way valve for electrical current. There are a couple types, but this is the main use, and the one I'm talking about here.

(LEDs are light-emitting diodes, so current only goes through them one way ... that's why they have to be wired in a certain way. And when the current passes through, they emit light.)

About the "door ajar diodes" ... I'm not guaranteeing this is the problem, but I'm saying that, if the problem isn't in the keyless module itself, it must be in the wiring. And, if you don't see any obvious problems with the wires itself, then maybe it's one of the specific components in the wiring system (like diodes).

So, take this with a grain of salt, but one thing I noticed on my 1989 EVTM diagram is that the door ajar switches are wired into the Keyless Entry Module and the Passive Restraint Module. There are a couple of diodes in the circuit, between the switches and the Keyless Module. I was just thinking, if the diodes failed, current might be able to pass through the Passive Restraint Module and run into the Keyless Entry Module. Which would be a reverse current flow, and I thought that might cause problems.

So, it's just a suggestion of something to check. Some voltmeters have a diode-test function built in.

My EVTM says they are in the wiring harness, "230mm (9 inches) from passive restraint module." (Which is in the trunk near the KEM.)

Also, do these Thunderbirds have a battery saver feature? My 89 doesn't. Maybe after 94 they do; I don't know.

-------------------

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post #10 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-10-2004, 11:24 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks a lot...definetely some good info!

This makes me wonder now. Before (this was a good while back) the "int lamps" fuse was blowing (10A fuse), and I didn't think about it too much and wasn't wise to what could happen and put a 20A in and it was fine. Well, I could put any 10A fuse in I wanted and it would blow immediately. I could hold in on the button in the door jamb that controls when the interior lights come on and makes the "door ajar" lights come on, and put the fuse in, and it would not blow. BUT...as soon as I released the button to make it think the door was "ajar", the fuse would blow.

Might be a good place to start checking.

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post #11 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-11-2004, 02:11 PM Thread Starter
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Just another question about the diodes....What exactly do/would they look like? And is there anyway to visually tell if they are bad or any way to electronically test them?

~Jeff

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post #12 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-11-2004, 08:35 PM
 
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regular diode:

Symbol: --|>|--

it looks like a little cylinder with a band to indicate the cathode. Power flows from the anode to the cathode, but not in reverse (unless you really cram it in there, but that doesnt apply here)
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post #13 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-11-2004, 08:37 PM
 
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to test, hook up a ohmmeter to it. In one direction, it should be infinite resistance, in the other, very little.
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post #14 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-12-2004, 02:47 AM
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Yeah, or a multimeter may have a special mode for diode testing, in which case, just follow the directions. The side with the stripe is negative, so as Vegeta99 said, all the current should be flowing from no-stripe to stripe.

Here is a picture of a typical diode. (I think yours may be a little bigger.)

http://learning.media.mit.edu/projec...ages/diode.jpg

I am studying my EVTM right now to try and help some more. This stuff is tough; I'm no electrical engineer. But I'm sort of hooked on this problem, and I want to see it solved. Plus, I would love to know how to fix it, in case it happens to me!!!

-------------------

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post #15 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-12-2004, 07:25 AM Thread Starter
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Cool, thanks for all the info. I have Sunday off from work so I'll get to work on it then.

~Jeff

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post #16 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-14-2004, 12:45 AM
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Hey there. I was reading those diagrams a little more the other night, and thinking about what you said. I am leaning in a little different direction now. First, from reexamining how the diodes are connected into the system, I'm less inclined to think they are the problem (although they certainly can fail from time to time.) Second, what you said about the problem you had with the interior lighting struck me a little. In my manual, the "Int Lamps" fuse is 15A, not 10A or 20A. Second, I can't see 6 or so lightbulbs pulling 10A and blowing a fuse. I think you probably have a short somewhere in that lighting circuit.

Also, I think the switches for the "Door Ajar" lamp and the interior lamps are separate ... 1 in the doorjamb, and 1 in the latch itself. So I think the "Door Ajar Diodes" and the interior lighting (activated when a door is ajar) are in 2 separate circuits. I will look at it some more.

I would start with that button on the door jamb and all the wiring in that circuit.

-------------------

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post #17 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-14-2004, 05:11 PM Thread Starter
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I'll start there then. I'm planning on seeing what I can find tomorrow since I finally have a day off. Really appreciate the insight.

~Jeff

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post #18 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-22-2004, 03:48 AM
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Hey Jeff, I spotted this thread tonight on the SHOForum site, and I thought it might help you:

The original post about the problem

The solution

It sounds like a similar problem, on a very similar Ford.

Have you had any success with your car?

-------------------

Steve

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post #19 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-25-2004, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
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Haven't really had any chance to work on it. Between being busy with work and school and just cold weather in general. Been doing a lot of thinking still. Might have a guy that knows a lot about this help me before too long.

~Jeff

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post #20 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-01-2004, 09:47 PM Thread Starter
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Solved!

After doing some looking, I got curious about the underhood light. Something about connection at the back of the hood, where it disconnects, didn't look right. Got an old toothbrush and scrubbed away all of the nasty buildup. One of the wires was completely stripped and half-way pulled out, the other wire was partially stripped. The problem was here all along, a simple short. Luckily nothing else was damaged in the ordeal.

The fix was simple. I just took the whole light and harness out. Went to the junkyard, found the last MN12 that had a box like mine in it...94 Cougar. Came back home, plugged it in, and no problems, everything works fine again. Then the next problem...my remote didn't work. Figured that each box is programmed with certain remotes. After some guidance from another member, I found out how to reprogram the remote for the box.

To reprogram the remote...

1- Turn ignition to ON or ACC. Make sure there are no lights on in the car.

2- Near the module in the trunk, there's an oval plug with 2 exposed pins on it.

3- Jump these pins together with a paperclip or something. Locks will lock and unlock to start programming.

4- Push any button on the remote. Locks will cycle again to confirm programing.

5- Turn ignition off. Locks will cycle once again to end programming.

Simple as that. Everything's back to normal - remote, lights, locks, and all. You really can't appreciate these things until you don't have them. Glad this is over.

~Jeff

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post #21 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-01-2004, 10:06 PM
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Rock on. I'm glad you got that fixed. I will make extra-sure to keep a vigilant eye out for shorts. I think I will go study my wiring diagrams to try and figure out how that short causes such huge problems, just for my own info. Thanks for the update!

-------------------

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post #22 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-01-2004, 10:08 PM Thread Starter
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I'm pretty sure it's wired in with the interior lights. So that's how it is wired in with the module.

~Jeff

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post #23 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-02-2004, 08:00 AM
 
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I told you the underhood light connector was probably the source of the problem. 'Glad you got it worked out!
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post #24 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-28-2004, 02:53 PM
 
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where is that keyless entry module at? i am having all kindsa problems kinda like that but its mostly stuff that just dosent work. like all the little lectrical stuff, the keyless entry, interior map lights, the passenger side vanity light and the trunk light work if you turn on the dome light with the headlight switch and you open the passenger side door, just recently the power locks down started not to work. they work fine if you want to unlock them but to try to lock them does nothing. did any one else have a problem like this before?
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post #25 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-28-2004, 04:57 PM Thread Starter
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The module itself is in the trunk. Pull the carpet back on the driver side, near the back part of the trunk, and it should be fastened to a bracket there.

~Jeff

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post #26 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-29-2004, 05:12 PM
 
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is there a way to get behind that black thing with out ripping those to clips apart?
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post #27 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-29-2004, 08:25 PM Thread Starter
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The clips are kind of tricky. I found some info on here, but getting it to work was different. I believe what I read was you have to twist them 90 degrees, then pull out...HARD. They're a royal PITA to get out. You just have to line them up right, and pull hard.

~Jeff

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post #28 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-30-2004, 07:53 PM
 
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i just pulled really hard

none of the chips on mine looked burned nor did the relays(Big black square things) there was what looked like battery corrosion on some places on the other side i jus cleaned it off put it back in but no luck
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post #29 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-30-2004, 09:10 PM Thread Starter
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I dunno about the corrosion part. The one part on mine appeared kind of like this. You're best bet to see if that's it, get a box from a junkyard. I picked one up for $20 if I remember right. Much cheaper than Ford.

~Jeff

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post #30 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-01-2004, 09:22 AM
 
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i read somthing about a wiring harness down on the floor i betcha its that do you know the easiest way to get to it? do i have to take out the seat and everything? do you know where there is a diagram or somthing that tells me how to do this
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