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post #1 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-31-2002, 12:41 PM Thread Starter
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full manual control of 4r70w

after spending some time going over shift solenoid and converter clutch wiring diagrams, i designed and built an electronic control device (those years at devry really paid off). it includes a manual/automatic mode switch, a locked/unlocked/auto torque converter switch, and four position gear select lever.

while the setup seems to work very well, i do have some concerns as to how long my transmission will last with this setup.

on the plus side, my city mileage went up dramatically due to my ability to enter the upper gears sooner and hold them. i also leave my tc locked most of the time. this works fine as long as i dont forget to downshift when comming to a light. if i come to a stop in second, the car will stall.

i am thinking of trying to get readings of voltages from the transmission line pressure input at various throttle positions and mabye design some kind of control for that so i can control shift firmness.

i would like to know what some people think about the issue of durability with this setup. until i am sure that i am not doing any harm to my car, i will be driving it in full automatic.

btw: if it matters, i am running mobil1 full synthetic atf with a farily large trans cooler with a fan on it.
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post #2 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-31-2002, 01:01 PM
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Hmmm, sounds to me like you might have something there ... Just a little brainstorm but are you good enough to build it "into" a shifter? You could have the 4r70W under there running in auto mode on the street and switch it to manual mode for the track. Or maybe it's an easy way to get a "modern" engine/trans into an older car... wouldn't need to change the existing EEC.

I'm no transmission expert but I don't know why it would affect the durability of the trans much in auto mode? Manually shifting any automatic is a little rougher on it.... doesn't seem to me you're doing much that the chip vendors aren't doing but seperating it from the main EEC and gaing finer control over it.

Last edited by doodaa; 10-31-2002 at 01:07 PM.
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post #3 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-31-2002, 01:37 PM
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Next, develop an F1 design so the sifters are paddles behind the steering wheel ao you can up shift and down shift by using the paddles behind the wheel.

Just a thought

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post #4 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-31-2002, 02:01 PM
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Doing the transmission build up would help out alot. by manually shifting, your putting more stress on the clutches.




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post #5 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-31-2002, 02:23 PM
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Can I shift manually after the J-Mod?

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post #6 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-31-2002, 02:43 PM
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Someone needs to get Jerry's email to this guy. The advice he needs would come best from The Man...

Here's something else you should look into. I want a fully auto transbrake! There are companys that make valve bodies that have transbrakes in them, but they're manual shift only and are not recommended for daily driving.

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post #7 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-31-2002, 03:41 PM
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Ahh i lost the webpage. There was a company that makes special products for the 4r70w. They made an electronics kit to put it into other cars and I beleive with this system you could also manually shift it. It was like 600 bucks though. Would you consider mass producing these and selling them? At least type up good instructions so the rest of us could make them. Ive always wanted one.
As far as it being hard on the tranny, the way I think of it, it should be fine upshifting, but I think downshifting is much harder because it pulls real hard. Sudden engine braking is not good for those clutches. I think if you waited till you were stopped to shift into a lower gear you would be fine.

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post #8 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-31-2002, 03:51 PM Thread Starter
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it is pure electronics so it should work fine with the j-mod. i however have not done the mod. i think i will wait until my next fluid change.

i will look into some sort of transbrake.

the company that makes the electronic control is bauman. they call it the baumanator or something like that. i used thier installation instructions to help with wire colors.
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post #9 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-31-2002, 04:17 PM Thread Starter
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i will try to draw out some diagram if enough people are interested.
the first version i made was VERY simple. all you need is a three position (ON-OFF-ON) switch and some wire. just hook the middle terminal (common) of the switch to a ground, then hook the outside terminals to seperate wires and one of the wires to shift solenoid 1 and the other wire to shift solenoid 2. they are ground switched. here is how the solenoids correspond to the gear you want.

SS1=ON SS2=OFF 1st gear switch to ON position ss1 to gnd

SS1=OFF SS2=OFF 2nd gear switch to OFF position

SS1=OFF SS2=ON 3rd gear switch to other ON position ss2 to gnd

SS1=ON SS2=ON 4th gear not avail. with this setup


keep in mind that this setup will not enable on-the-fly switching between auto/manual. the TC lockup is also still in control of the eec.

i reccomend that anyone wanting manual control try this setup first to see if they like it. the full setup allowing overdrive, TC lock/unlock/auto control, and on the fly auto/manual switching is much more involved.

i don't have the wire colors handy, but they can be found on the web.
be VERY careful though because colors may have changed from year to year and engine to engine. the trans wires from the eec should all be running through a sub harness. i think it is yellow. it is in the rats' nest of wires just below the eec.
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post #10 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-31-2002, 04:24 PM
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Did you build circuits for the solenoids?

I am pretty sure that they are 12v and hold solenoids, it takes a split second flash of 12v to get them to engage, and then ~1v to hold them open (the tc lockup solenoid is anyhow)....

just curious...
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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-31-2002, 06:31 PM
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Smile Old hat...

This has been done and discussed. It's old hat.

A guy in FL has a 600+ RWHP Vortech blown and nitrous assisted T-Bird with a completely manual 4R70W and an electronic lock-up via a switch.

Nothing new.

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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-31-2002, 06:33 PM
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I don't think the J-mod is enough, you have to do the entire build-up, and even then it's more stressful than letting the computer do it.




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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-31-2002, 09:16 PM
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Re: Old hat...

Quote:
Originally posted by A-Train
This has been done and discussed. It's old hat.

A guy in FL has a 600+ RWHP Vortech blown and nitrous assisted T-Bird with a completely manual 4R70W and an electronic lock-up via a switch.

Nothing new.

A-Train
Can I ask who this guy could be???

600+HP T-Bird??



Who, who who?? Any info? Pics? etc..

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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-01-2002, 12:37 AM
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This company has a similar product:

http://www.baumannengineering.com/tcs.htm

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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-01-2002, 02:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eric Z.
This company has a similar product:

http://www.baumannengineering.com/tcs.htm

Eric
Thats already been established
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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-01-2002, 10:15 AM
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Whether it has been done or not, which i already knew it had because Im familiar with Bauman engineering, is insignificant. The fact that this guy has done it and is right here to teach us how to do it is different. If he could mass produce them for like 50 bucks he could made a bunch of money and a bunch of people happy. Baumans is 600 or so dollares. His first designs were about 3.

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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-01-2002, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by NRL


Thats already been established
Just providing the link and the actual name of the company chief..........
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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-02-2002, 10:41 AM
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I don't believe there will be any issues with the manual electronic control. The one that uses the cruise control buttons to do the same thing is a nice idea that has been around a long time.
Locking the TC all the time will keep the heat to a minimum.
One thing to look at though is that TC unlock when stopping. My custom EEC runs basically the same way and unlocks just in time to keep from stalling. Maybe you can do the same thing in the EEC and not use that switch and just keep gear selection. Getting into higher gears sooner and holding them at higher throttle inputs make the car much more fuel friendly for sure. There is enough power and torque that these cars should be short shifted anyway from stock.

As for the finer points, someone like Jerry is the only one to answer those questions on the trans. How does this affect the way EEC uses trans functions to run the car? What are the real, if any, longevity issues?

rm
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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-02-2002, 09:13 PM
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All this sounds really interesting, but how different is it from manual shifting with the stick? Is the switch way quicker? Just wandering...

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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-02-2002, 09:19 PM
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The switch way will use the solonoids alone while using the stick uses the manual shift valve. Difference comes in how the transmission operates depending on the position of the manual shift valve.

For example, when in D, first gear engages the forward clutch and the intermediate one-way clutch locks. This gives you first gear and when you get out of the trottle during Auto-first, the car will caost, like on a bicycle will. In Manual-First, the forward clutch and the reverse band both come on. The reverse band will give you manual first and allow engine braking.

It also does not let the direct clutch begin filling in preperation of the 1-2 shift. Thats why there's so much lag in a manual 1-2 shift, you have to wait for that clutch to fill up, and then pressurize.


So in effect, the switch way is quicker, and also much better for the transmission. It'll let the transmission operate as if it was in full auto mode, but its just like using the O/D cancel button. You can run up any gear you want, and lcok out the others, but the fluid travel in the tranny is the same as full auto operation. It basically allows yuo to take full control of the shift solonoids away from the computer.


Make sense?

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post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-02-2002, 09:31 PM
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Average joe... what i understood from your post is that this would not effect the life of the tranny because it is working the same way it would if the eec was in control?

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post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-02-2002, 09:51 PM
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I answered by comparing his information about it with the information in chapter 3 of Jerry's thesis. I COULD be wrong, but I think it mostly depends on how you drive it. the only one who can give the most accurate answer is Jerry himself. So I think I'll see about acquiring his email address to see if he'll be kind enough to answer these questions for us.

As for the other tranny gurus, does my above post make sense about the advantages of using the buttons? If its wrong, I'll happily edit it.

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post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-02-2002, 10:17 PM
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Question my only concern with longevity is.....

if you are applying a higher gear at lower engine speeds and lower throttle opening angles, the line pressure of the trans might be low enough to cause slippage. The line pressure of a 4r70w is contolled by the epc ( electronic pressure control) solenoid, which is fed info from EEC based on throttle position and maf sensor inputs.
It might cook the trans. It might not, its your money.

If you could build a control for the epc and set a minimum line pressure, to insure no slippage occurs it would be safe to use. any ford tranny manual should be able to provide you with pressure specs, just bump it up a little (10-20psi) from there and you should be fine.

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post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-03-2002, 06:13 AM
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I'm going the same way, and part way there. I plan to use a shorting rotary switch and diodes to select the right combination of shift solenoids, with the "automatic" position after 4th gear. Tough part is fabbing a ratchet drive for the switch so I can have a paddle shifter.

The only wear problem I can see is in newer PCMs (I use a '94) that pull timing or injectors to flatten the torque bump during the shift. You could do this with some external electronics, but I haven't tried it. My PCM doesn't appear to have this function.

The other issue is shifting with the TC locked. Currently, I force lock when the PCM is commanding slip, and have a manual lock button I use when in 2nd. Light throttle shifts are done locked, which makes them feelable but not abusive, IMO. I have the Transgo shift kit, mild option, installed. WOT up and downshifts are done unlocked because the PCM commands full unlock under WOT and my electronics follows this. WOT locked shifts would probalby give you better performance, but with more clutch wear. But - manually shifting, you can feather the throttle, which can be very easy on the tranny and drivetrain.

I could see increasing line pressure a bit during shifts, but would return to PCM pressure otherwise unless I had engine mods making more torque for the same throttle position. If driving the EPC and MCC solenoids from external electronics, I would duplicate the pulse rate and duty cycle that the PCM outputs. For the MCC, the 1-ohm "original" variety, full lock is a 10.5KHZ pulse train with approx 33% duty cycle. The high-resistance later version may be designed to lock with a full 12 volts, I don't know for sure. With the 1-ohm version, you can cheat with 12 volts thru an 8 - 10 ohm resistor, but this will heat the solenoid more. My MCC solenoid tends to stick sometimes with DC drive.

The manual shifter can also be implemented with some digital logic, which gives you more control flexibility like direct selection of any gear, but I don't want a cockpit error or electronic glitch to hit 1st when I'm at flank speed. Failsafes could be designed in, but it gets complicated fast.

Good luck.
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post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-03-2002, 12:12 PM
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A-Train...that T-Bird is in Georgia no Florida and last I heard he went boom and was rebuilding.

And yes... 96 and 97 MN12's can have a full manual valvebody with just some changes in the 1s and 0s of the EEC.

I can't believe I missed this tread for so long...ohwell.
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post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-03-2002, 12:24 PM
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Hey Seabass, don't you have Jerry's email? I'm curious to know if I'm right in my above posts about manual control of a 4r70w with buttons...

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post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-03-2002, 02:53 PM
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Smile Are you sure? OK then...

Seabass,

Talking with the "man" in NY, he told me the car was 500 RWHP without the juice and 650 or so, with the juice. The 4R70W is completely manual and the TC is locked with a button. As we talked about.

He specifically stated it was tuned in FL, so perhaps that was where I made the mistake. Sorry. However, who cares where he's from? Who cares if it blew up! All that power with stock cams too. The point was to show, it's been done before and it's old hat. These people bring it up like it's revolutionary and never been done before.

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post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-03-2002, 10:35 PM
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I know him and he lives down here in GA. I have seen the beast's insides and out and he was 11.77 before the motor blowup and the new setup will be stronger. The custom Spearco air to air intercooler is very tight and he has longtubes.

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post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-03-2002, 10:56 PM
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I'd be willing to bet that if anyone on this site knows the answer to the question of this mod affecting durability, it would be Dr. Frankencougie. Care to educate us Dr.?

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post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-04-2002, 05:02 PM
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Someone mail the first post to Jerry and ask him durability. Thats the one and only way to find out for sure. If there are no issues more than the computer pulling timing im sure this would become as popular as the Jerry mod itself.

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