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post #1 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-04-2002, 04:05 AM Thread Starter
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Dyno'd my car...

Just wanted to see what it was making with these minor mods.... and get a test after my winter mods.
I got 196.9RWHP and 249,4 RWtorque.
The lower torque might have to do with my exhaust but.....
I am gonna be doing some more mods b4 next race season, but any ideas what I should run now. Keep in mind I was running 15.0's consistently before the true dual exhaust, "THE" tranny mod, and before replacing the totally clogged fuel filter.

BTW, I have been running on 18" rim with 255/35/18 's tires on em'. I am gonna get some 15's or 16's for the track next year as well.

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post #2 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-04-2002, 09:10 PM
 
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Looks good!

BTW, although you have 18" wheels.... they're still only 35's.

http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html
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post #3 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-04-2002, 10:16 PM
 
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Originally posted by WaLieN
Looks good!

BTW, although you have 18" wheels.... they're still only 35's.

http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html
It's the weight difference between swapping wheel for rubber.

Nice Aaron_T. Good to see some pics up close on your page.
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post #4 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-05-2002, 08:57 AM
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Please post the pic of the dyno sheet, I would like to see how the power is spread out over the rpm range.

Just one question in my mind. The only real power adder you put on since your 15 second run is the dual exhaust (J-mod has nothing to do with dyno power), which is the source of my question.

You now have 197hp. Your previous best run was 15 seconds and the only real power difference is exhaust? This is my point: 197Rear wheel horse power is a lot of power and people with that power run low 14s. Problem: how are you going from 15 seconds to even mid 14s with dual exaust?

Perhaps there is something you have not mentioned or something I am overlooking here and that is very possible, but the amount of power you put out and your mods listed are increadible.

Congratulations on the power though!

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post #5 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-05-2002, 09:16 AM
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post #6 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-05-2002, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Big-Al
Please post the pic of the dyno sheet, I would like to see how the power is spread out over the rpm range.

Just one question in my mind. The only real power adder you put on since your 15 second run is the dual exhaust (J-mod has nothing to do with dyno power), which is the source of my question.

You now have 197hp. Your previous best run was 15 seconds and the only real power difference is exhaust? This is my point: 197Rear wheel horse power is a lot of power and people with that power run low 14s. Problem: how are you going from 15 seconds to even mid 14s with dual exaust?

Perhaps there is something you have not mentioned or something I am overlooking here and that is very possible, but the amount of power you put out and your mods listed are increadible.

Congratulations on the power though!
That's really only about 20 hp more than stock. And I think you would need 3.73 gears to breach the mid 14's with tha rwhp.
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post #7 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-05-2002, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by JoeB
That's really only about 20 hp more than stock. And I think you would need 3.73 gears to breach the mid 14's with that rwhp.
My point exactly. 197 is a lot for our cars. No one here has that without a lot more mods. Perhaps he is in the freezing cold up in Alaska and at sea level and is getting those numbers. In which case, I need to move to Alaska!

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post #8 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-05-2002, 12:31 PM
 
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Question

pardon my ignorance, but the stock numbers on my '95 Bird with the 4.6L read 205hp and 280ft-lb of torque.

why is it i run very high 15s when i "should" be running 14s?

i'm guessing there's a piece my feeble little brain is not putting into the puzzle.
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post #9 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-05-2002, 01:56 PM
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The difference is Crank Horsepower and Rear Wheel Horsepower. Cars are rated by manufacturers based on the power they put out at the crank. Crank doesnt mean a lot when it comes down to the car's acceleration. Rear Wheel Horsepower (RWHP) is how much power the wheels lay to the ground. in RWD cars, i believe the average drivetrain power loss is 18%. This is due to having to turn drivetrain components (transmission, torque converter, driveshaft, differential, and wheels). So a car is gonna have less RearWheelHorsepower (some call it Real Wheel Horsepower cause it's what matters) than it does Crank Horsepower. So if your crank hp is exactly 205 and there is exactly 18% drivetrain loss, than the car will have 168rwhp. of course every car varies, but based on this, Aaron T has about 30rwhp more than this example has. So basically, the easiest way to find out the most useful hp is to use a Wheel dyno.
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post #10 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-05-2002, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Big-Al


My point exactly. 197 is a lot for our cars. No one here has that without a lot more mods. Perhaps he is in the freezing cold up in Alaska and at sea level and is getting those numbers. In which case, I need to move to Alaska!
Exactly...every known bolt-on,with the exception of JBA's,and I'm at 212rwhp/282 ft-lbs.Best track times so far:

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post #11 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-05-2002, 03:46 PM
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Damn dude

you cut a good light on the 3rd pass .505, i bet ya thought ya red lighted.
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post #12 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-05-2002, 03:50 PM
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Re: Damn dude

Quote:
Originally posted by dugweed
you cut a good light on the 3rd pass .505, i bet ya thought ya red lighted.
Mike
Not really...I'm typically between .510 and .600 at HRP, but I was concentrating on my launch and et hunting...
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post #13 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-05-2002, 08:33 PM
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birdman,

Actually, you have a '95 T-Bird and it was originally rated at 205 HP @ 4,500 rpm and 265 ft.-lbs. of torque @ 3,200 rpm. The '96-'97 4.6L T-Birds/Cougars are rated 205 HP @ 4,250 rpm and 280 ft.-lbs. of torque @ 3,000 rpm.

The dynojet shows REAR WHEEL horsepower, not flywheel power. Most are corrected to SAE, but some are done in STD. The correction factor, STD, is about 4% higher then SAE correction. Anyway, as most have said already, the driveline absorbs some of the power, that is why the numbers are different. My stock '95 T-Bird made 165 RWHP on a dynojet with an SAE correction factor.

chilipepprflea,

If Aaron made 196.9 RWHP/249.4 RWTQ, it's actually 230.1 HP and 291.5 ft.-lbs. of torque at the flywheel with the proper driveline loss formula. Of course these are peak numbers only. No it's not 18% and no, I won't disclose the formula.

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post #14 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-05-2002, 09:14 PM
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sorry, i was referring to the power of Aaron's bird compared to the stock example i was using. but that 18% was off i guess.

what if i were making 170.4rwhp and 222.6rwtq? could you correct that to crank hp for me?
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post #15 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-05-2002, 09:28 PM
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Smile Ok...

chilipepprflea,

No problem. According to the formula the "man" gave me, you're making...

199.1 HP and 260.2 ft.-lbs. of torque

Not quite what Ford said it would be, huh? Not that they ever lie...I mean the '99 Cobra eventually made 320 HP.

That's ok, I made 165 RWHP stock which comes out to 193 HP. I made 325 RWHP with the AED kit and the '00 engine, which is 379.85 HP. I'll take the extra 186 HP!

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post #16 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 02:00 AM Thread Starter
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1."Please post the pic of the dyno sheet, I would like to see how the power is spread out over the rpm range.

2.Just one question in my mind. The only real power adder you put on since your 15 second run is the dual exhaust (J-mod has nothing to do with dyno power), which is the source of my question.

3.You now have 197hp. Your previous best run was 15 seconds and the only real power difference is exhaust? This is my point: 197Rear wheel horse power is a lot of power and people with that power run low 14s. Problem: how are you going from 15 seconds to even mid 14s with dual exaust?

Perhaps there is something you have not mentioned or something I am overlooking here and that is very possible, but the amount of power you put out and your mods listed are increadible.

Congratulations on the power though!"

1.I will either get my Dyno sheets on my webpage, or in this thread, tonight.

2. Even though the only "power mod" I did was the exhaust, my fuel filter was totally clogged. No matter how hard I blew, no air would pass through it. There was a very noticable gain when I changed this. The reason I brought up the J-mod is cuz I think it is supposed to take 1 (maybe 2) tenths off?

3. I don't hook-up to well at the track

"My point exactly. 197 is a lot for our cars. No one here has that without a lot more mods. Perhaps he is in the freezing cold up in Alaska and at sea level and is getting those numbers. In which case, I need to move to Alaska!"

Living in Alaska has nothin to do with the results of my Dyno results. It was actually warmer on the dyno than outside. I believe JoeB was saying 20HP isn't that much.


JL
"Exactly...every known bolt-on,with the exception of JBA's,and I'm at 212rwhp/282 ft-lbs"

Do you have your dyno shet? Does it show the temp. during the run(s). They are supposed to use some sort of cooling device for the fan to suck in cooler air.


With the dyno results, you guys think I should run mid to high 14's then? That would be cool. Once I recieved my Dyno files via email (printer supposedly not working???), they were corrected to SAE, my HP dropped only a few HP/Torque.
BTW, he said I was running a little rich (I got A/F trace), he said I should go up a step or 2 spark plugs wise, any recommendations?

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post #17 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron_T
I believe JoeB was saying 20HP isn't that much.
Actually man,20rwhp is alot...

JL
"Exactly...every known bolt-on,with the exception of JBA's,and I'm at 212rwhp/282 ft-lbs"

Do you have your dyno shet?
Yes I do
... Does it show the temp. during the run(s). They are supposed to use some sort of cooling device for the fan to suck in cooler air.
Yes,they do use a fan,right in front of the radiator,and the runs are corrected to SAE standards.
With the dyno results, you guys think I should run mid to high 14's then? That would be cool. Once I recieved my Dyno files via email (printer supposedly not working???), they were corrected to SAE, my HP dropped only a few HP/Torque.
BTW, he said I was running a little rich (I got A/F trace), he said I should go up a step or 2 spark plugs wise, any recommendations? [/B]

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post #18 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 08:39 AM
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Aaron T, I am just wondering how you got that much power out of that few mods. You can reference Johnny Langton above who made about your same power only after having every bolt on known to man on his Bird. You have what....chip and pulleys and exhaust? That does not equal 196 rwhp on any Bird I have ever seen. That is whay I am asking what's going on with your car. I personally just made 192.7 rear wheel horse power but that was with a HOST of mods.
I put up the comparison so you can see what I am talking about.

Big-Al: 192.7 hp...........................Aaron T: 196 hp
Chip from the man..............................Chip
3:73 traction lock rear end..................Dual exhaust
Aluminum drive shaft...........................pulleys
J-mod
pulleys
80 mm MAF
Custom Intake tube
Torque converter
Flowmaster cat-back
Conicle K&N
(I think that is it)


See what I am saying? Your hp is way high for the mods you have, which is good, but needs explaination.

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post #19 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 10:01 AM
 
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[puts on flame suit]

maybe hypertech module has something to do w/ it......could it be better than "the man's chip?" ahahahah... (i'm being sarcastic here guys,......but i'd be curious to find out the diff between jetchip hypertech and "the man's" program......like real specifics)
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post #20 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Big-Al
Aaron T, I am just wondering how you got that much power out of that few mods. You can reference Johnny Langton above who made about your same power only after having every bolt on known to man on his Bird. You have what....chip and pulleys and exhaust? That does not equal 196 rwhp on any Bird I have ever seen. That is whay I am asking what's going on with your car. I personally just made 192.7 rear wheel horse power but that was with a HOST of mods.
I put up the comparison so you can see what I am talking about.

Big-Al: 192.7 hp...........................Aaron T: 196 hp
Chip from the man..............................Chip
3:73 traction lock rear end..................Dual exhaust
Aluminum drive shaft...........................pulleys
J-mod
pulleys
80 mm MAF
Custom Intake tube
Torque converter
Flowmaster cat-back
Conicle K&N
(I think that is it)


See what I am saying? Your hp is way high for the mods you have, which is good, but needs explaination.
Let's go one by one:

-Aluminum driveshaft provides very little power gain especially if it is larger diameter than the steel one which they usually are (larger diameter increases moment of inertia). I'd say 3 hp tops and only above 5000 rpm. Less below that.
-Torque converter will only provide a hp gain if it is much smaller in diameter and weight. A 3 inch decrease in diameter and shaving 30 lbs off the weight is worth about 10-15 hp at 5000 rpm. Do the math if you don't agree. I have for my 4l80e trans in my chevelle because it came with a 13" 65 lb converter.
-Gear change provides zero hp gain.
-As was already said J-mod gives no hp gain.
-We'll assume the chips to be a wash even though the j-chip is probably better.
-And the pulleys are a wash.

That leaves us with intake mods (maf, tube, filter) and a cat back vs. a true dual exhaust to account for the difference. And a true dual exhaust is a much more significant mod. If you still have your stock y-pipe you're lucky to get 5-10 hp from just the cat back and intake mods combined. You can only make as much hp as your biggest restriction. Think about it, you probably have a 3 inch intake tube but the stock y-pipe is squashed to less than 2 inches at one point. Can't intake more than you can exhaust. I'll take the stock violin case intake/maf and a true dual exhaust over a 3 inch intake and cat back any day.

Also, it's a common misconception but bolt ons don't add up in the hp column directly. Each successive one adds less and less exponentially. And when it's all said and done a good exhaust is always the hp/dollar champ!

And I still say 20 more rwhp ain't enough to go mid 14's without gears.
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post #21 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 11:06 AM
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So you are saying that a generic chip and dual exhaust is good for 20 hp at the rear wheels?

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post #22 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Big-Al
So you are saying that a generic chip and dual exhaust is good for 20 hp at the rear wheels?
Al, put the hacksaw and the 2.5" pipe down please.

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post #23 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 11:10 AM
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I know, right? I could have saved thousands of dollars and just put on dual exhaust and a generic chip and made more power! DANG I've been ROBBED!
Anyone want to buy all my mods? They are all for sale, I am getting true dual exhaust and a cheap chip so I can make 196 hp!

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Last edited by Big-Al; 11-06-2002 at 11:23 AM.
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post #24 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Big-Al
I know, right? I could have saved thousands of dollars and just put on dual exhaust and a generic chip and made more power! DANG I've been ROBBED!
Anyone want to buy all my mods? Theay are all for sale, I am getting true dual exhaust and a cheap chip so I can make 196 hp!
Andy has True Dual.. what did he pull at the Dyno after Fall Autofair?

Oh wait, Anna didn't make that meet did she.

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post #25 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 11:20 AM
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Thank you Shads, that is my point exactly! True duals are not a magic wand for power. Johnny Langton may be able to shed light on the subject as well as he has a dual set up and has records of his hp before and after certain mods. Or perhaps someone else could post their dyno sheets as well with their mods.

By the way, Aaron, I am not bashing you in any way, I know this can look like I am being mean but I am not, I am just curious.

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post #26 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShadowDragon


Andy has True Dual.. what did he pull at the Dyno after Fall Autofair?

Oh wait, Anna didn't make that meet did she.
No she didn't.
But she's been on a dyno before.
made 181rwhp with alittle over 100k on the ticker...I'm wantin to say 120-130...don't remember. That was before the L-MAF. Another car (97) there made 185rwhp with true duals, Inject-Tech's Flash and the L-MAF, with less than 100k.
I don't remember any of the Torque #'s

At the time, this was the mod list:
K&N panel
73.66mm Throttle Body
Steeda Underdrive Pullies
Inject-Tech Dyno Tune
True Dual-Exhaust w/2 Chamber Flowmasters


Take all this for what it's worth.
But those #'s do seem high for exhaust and a chip...
Maybe his was Built On Monday
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post #27 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 11:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShadowDragon


Andy has True Dual.. what did he pull at the Dyno after Fall Autofair?

Oh wait, Anna didn't make that meet did she.
Nope, his car was suffering from Deeritis
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post #28 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 11:58 AM
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I believe he's making all that power,
look at the dial in:

And you say this was before the duals?

The part I would have trouble with is the Modifications...or lack thereof.

I guess Location has alot to do with it.
It don't get hot up there, and humidity is probably(guessing) somewhat foriegn to the eskimos.

my car and the other were dyno'd in the Georgia Heat & Humidity of June.

As I recall, it was quite humid the day Big-Al's car was dyno'd too. Rained all day then the sun came out ...wasn't quite miserable but very noticeable.
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post #29 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 11:59 AM
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Power:
Here is mine from a few months ago. I am also wondering how Aaron's power is distributed as there is a difference between power through the rpms and a power spike. A friend of mine dynoed 191 hp but the 191 was a power spike that was about a half a second long and the rest of the rpm range was around the 180s.


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post #30 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Big-Al
I know, right? I could have saved thousands of dollars and just put on dual exhaust and a generic chip and made more power! DANG I've been ROBBED!
Anyone want to buy all my mods? They are all for sale, I am getting true dual exhaust and a cheap chip so I can make 196 hp!
Don't fret Al! If you did put in a dual exhaust you'd probably make a little more power than Aaron.

But as has been said true duals is not a magic wand and I agree with that. All I'm saying is that just because x person has 10 bolt ons and y person has 5 doesn't mean x person has more power. With these cars it's not that hard to get 20 more hp with any number of combinations of bolt ons. But once you hit that 20-25 hp mark you will hit a wall no matter how many bolt ons you add. Why? Two words. Crappy heads. The stock heads & cams won't support much more than 190-200 rwhp. That's why it seems like everybody with just bolt ons can get to that 190 rwhp mark but then seem to stall. Johnny Langton was able to get to 212 because of the cam swap.

Now don't get all upset Big Al. All those mods may not have resulted in more hp but the torque converter, gears etc. sure did make your car quicker right? And in the end that's what counts. I'd take time slips over dyno sheets any day! Plus, if you do ever do the pi head/cam swap all those mods will allow you to take full advantage of the increased flow.
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