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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-18-2007, 05:43 PM Thread Starter
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95 Swap to 5.4L

Alright guys, well I was talking to a buddy of mine because I want to supercharge my 95 Bird. However after some research I have found that my stop 4.6L SOHC just is not going to cut it. Im going to need to rebuild the the entire motor. But anyways, a bubby of mine brought up the 5.4L SOHC swap. So the question I have include the following:

1. Will it fit into the T-bird?
2. Where should I go to find the motor?
3. Should I go DOHC on the 5.4
4. How much money and time should I be ready to spend (ballpark estimate)?
5. What supercharger should I look into?
6. If I need a new hood, who should I go to?
7. What (if anything) needs to be done to the motor for the supercharger?
8. What diff. should I go with limited slip; locker; single piece?
9. How much power will it make (ballpark estimate)?
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-18-2007, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punisher7191 View Post
Alright guys, well I was talking to a buddy of mine because I want to supercharge my 95 Bird. However after some research I have found that my stop 4.6L SOHC just is not going to cut it. Im going to need to rebuild the the entire motor. But anyways, a bubby of mine brought up the 5.4L SOHC swap. So the question I have include the following:

1. Will it fit into the T-bird?
2. Where should I go to find the motor?
3. Should I go DOHC on the 5.4
4. How much money and time should I be ready to spend (ballpark estimate)?
5. What supercharger should I look into?
6. If I need a new hood, who should I go to?
7. What (if anything) needs to be done to the motor for the supercharger?
8. What diff. should I go with limited slip; locker; single piece?
9. How much power will it make (ballpark estimate)?


1) yes, the sohc 5.4 will fit
2) greenleafauto.com or your local junk yard
3) no, a dohc 5.4 will not fit w/out extensive modifications
4) greenleafauto.com $1,700; local junk yard $600 engine/tranny only
5) Allen
6) vfn hood, supercoupeperformance.com, cobra r hood
7) mild boost nothing, more than 15 lbs forge everything/lower compression
8) your call trac-lok, ox locker, open, 4.10 or 3.73 depending
9) 300-350 hp roughly

10) you need a chip go to sctchips or blueovalchips.com

-1996 Pearl White Thunderbird 4.6 Sport 4v with many mods:
Current Best: 13.583 @ 103.74 10/2014.
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-18-2007, 11:16 PM
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*adds this to his list of 5.4 swaps that will never happen, until proven otherwise*
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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-18-2007, 11:26 PM
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people should really read around this board a bit more before even asking. Im power hungry and I dont even care about the 5.4, its simply not worth the trouble in a t-bird. The only car the 5.4 would benefit is the panther platform cars because of the weight or the mustang if you are a mustang nut since its been done in a cobra R, its clearly possible. Seriously though I havent seen a good reason to bother with the 5.4 instead pursuing the possibilities of the 4.6. Ok ill shut up now.

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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-19-2007, 12:17 AM
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you want more bore, not more stroke. the 5.4L single cam is great to tow stuff with, like my truck....and unless its got an air compressor on it, it is just a "dump truck motor".




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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-19-2007, 03:49 AM
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I say go for the swap. I myself currently have a 5.4 sitting in my barn waiting to go into my 95 Bird. I am just waiting to get the cash for an intake manifold and cams.
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-19-2007, 05:19 AM
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dont tell me you want to do a performance build around a naturally aspirated 2V 5.4?!?....at least the thread starter threw in the idea of supercharging it which would help cylinder-filling problems at higher RPMs

so you want to cam a mod 5.4 and shift the torque/HP peak up higher on the RPM band, right where the massive air choking happens that so far no intake manifold has yet to resolve? ....good luck with that
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-19-2007, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
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dont tell me you want to do a performance build around a naturally aspirated 2V 5.4?!?....at least the thread starter threw in the idea of supercharging it which would help cylinder-filling problems at higher RPMs

so you want to cam a mod 5.4 and shift the torque/HP peak up higher on the RPM band, right where the massive air choking happens that so far no intake manifold has yet to resolve? ....good luck with that
The intake manifold that I am looking at is the new trickflow track heat, which accepts a twin bore cobra throttle body. I looks similar to the bullit, but it has shorter and wider intake runners. With that intake, a good set of cams, stage2/ 3 ported heads, and a converter from dirty dogg, you would have a N/A 2 valve Triton that would be extremely hard for just about any natural street car to touch.
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-19-2007, 01:23 PM
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well therein lies the ambiguitity of the statement "extemely hard for just about any natural street car to touch"

are you talking about "stoplight wars"? ....or are you talkin about 1/4 mile performance?

the massive low-end torque from a 5.4 mod motor would definitely make you a contender in stoplight wars, but in a drag race where you no longer exploit low-RPM torque of the 5.4 is where the 5.4's inadequacies as a drag-race motor become fully exposed

good luck with your endeavor, and i hope you succeed where everyone one has failed...... like i said before, no offense but i'll believe it when i see it
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-19-2007, 02:41 PM Thread Starter
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Well my idea was to build a Lighting motor and drop it in. I know those Lightings make 380hp. But what im truely interested in is the 450 ft/lbs of torque to get off the line, what GUITAR MANESTRO said,"stop light wars." The way I look at it I only have to go 500ft to know I've won the race.
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-19-2007, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
... The results? Well, I get awesome mileage, enough torque to pull a house, and high 14s, even with the 3.08 gears. And traction problems.
IMHO, a lot of money that could be spent on an Explorer motor and other upgrades. As noted in the quote above, without some serious meat under the rear end you'll just smoke the tires.

Mods? Yea, I got mods ...
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-19-2007, 03:02 PM
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If the 5.4 truly has not true racing potential, than why is FORD using that engine on the GT Supercar and the Shelby 500. It is true that they are DOHC and supercharged, but so many of you nay-sayers keep getting back to its long stroke. If the stroke is the limiting factor like everyone else tells me, than why is FORD using that block in such elite and spectacular cars.
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-19-2007, 05:39 PM
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thunderstruck, we were talking about a NATURALLY ASPIRATED 5.4 mod motor......under forced induction things change drastically, since air is being forced into the cylinder, thereby alleviating high-RPM choking.

that is why nearly all 'peformance' built vehicles to come from ford with a 5.4 (whether SOHC or DOHC) have forced induction....hardly any other way to get performance out of it.....of course i wont forget the 2000 Cobra R......but i dont have to, since to this date no one has shown it is possible to install a DOHC 5.4 mod motor in an stock chassis mn12, and also some of the parts on the Cobra R were designed solely for that car at that time...no other production vehicle received those "one-off" parts, so to speak

as far as stroke, it is important, again, in naturally aspirated form.....the 2V modular engine already has too long of a stroke compared to its bore diameter, and this prevents good high-RPM breathing capabilities when it alone is responsible for introducing air into the cylinders at high-RPM.......so now with a longer stroke, and still only 1 heavily shrouded intake valve, there are even more cubic inches to be filled and too much valve-shrouding to allow free-breathing

so there is the answer to your questions, thunderstruck95
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-19-2007, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk Monkey View Post
http://www.geocities.com/v8thunder54/triton.html



IMHO, a lot of money that could be spent on an Explorer motor and other upgrades. As noted in the quote above, without some serious meat under the rear end you'll just smoke the tires.
HAHAHAHA,

I got a mid 14 on an explorer with a tune and a whole lot less work than a 5.4 swap.And it was on a stock stall.

And I ran it with 90+ degrees and 70% humidity.

I guess my money was better spent on the 4.6 PI motor.lol

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Last edited by 95xbird; 11-19-2007 at 06:17 PM.
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-19-2007, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk Monkey View Post
http://www.geocities.com/v8thunder54/triton.html



IMHO, a lot of money that could be spent on an Explorer motor and other upgrades. As noted in the quote above, without some serious meat under the rear end you'll just smoke the tires.
Don't believe this guy's propaganda. He was exposed as a fraud a long, long time ago. I remember reading his web page when I was a junior in high school, back in 1998. At the time, a mid-14 was fast around here. His claims laid the foundation for a lot of the die-hard 5.4 guys around here. Brian (V8Thunder) eventually claimed to go into the 13's N/A. BUT...it was eventually shown that he used some amount of nitrous in the process.

A 2V 5.4 is only worth the effort if it's got a power adder. The boost really helps make up the short comings of the goofy cylinder geometry, anemic heads, and inadequate intake. Those negative factors severely limit flow; however, a pressure differential from a blower changes all the rules. The Lightning setup won't clear any sort of hood though. If a 4.6L Vortech bracket could be adapted to fit a 5.4, that would probably be your best bet.

The 32V 5.4 is another story. Good luck making it fit, and have fun trying to find an intake manifold that will clear any sort of hood. The Navigator and Aviator with adaptors are both too tall. The Cobra R is unobtanium. The FR500 is nice, but you'll empty your pocket for it even before you figure out adaptors. Your only option would be the 99 Cobra / Mach 1 setup with some sort of plate setup, which would most likely clear the stock 97 hood...but that still doesn't fix the issues with the shock towers and frame. I don't see any way around that issue.

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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-19-2007, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punisher7191 View Post
Well my idea was to build a Lighting motor and drop it in. I know those Lightings make 380hp. But what im truely interested in is the 450 ft/lbs of torque to get off the line, what GUITAR MANESTRO said,"stop light wars." The way I look at it I only have to go 500ft to know I've won the race.
want torque?....you dont need a stroked-out 4.6 (which is what a 5.4 basically is) to get it and win your 500' stoplight wars....luckily for physics, torque is not a conserved physical quantity within the drivetrain......what does that mean?.....means if your engine makes 300 ft*lbs, you dont dont have to live with just those 300 ft*lbs......you can get more torque to the wheels than the engine could ever dream to make at the crank, thru mechanical leverage...in other words: gearing.......both the gears in the trans and in the differential, positively multiply torque to the wheels, which is what is really responsible for the total acceleration of the vehicle.......omitting losses and torque multiplication from the torque converter, we have:

Torque_at_wheels= Brake_Torque*Current_Trans_Gear_ratio*Rear_End_Gea r_Ratio

a 2V 4.6 PI engine can make rougly 300 ft*lbs.....since your trans gear ratios stay the same 'cause all 4R70Ws have the same ratios, we can omit the middle term and just look at the rear end ratio

(450 ft*lbs) * 3.27 = (300 ft*lbs) * X_Gears

so how much rear end gearing would you need to make the same torque at the wheels as a Lightning motor in your car with 3.27s?......4.91:1......a close ratio offered by most gear manufacturers would be 4.88s

sounds crazy, but you will end up with pretty much the same torque at the wheels as a stock Lightning motor....if you have 3.08s, then a close enough gear would be 4.56s

in a 1/4 mi drag race, a Lightning motor would still get you down there faster, but that is because it makes more Horsepower (what really wins races)....but for only 500', shorter gears will definitely get you there faster and a heck of a lot easier/cheaper than trying to duplicate a Lightning motor and dropping it in your car.......i've seen several mn12s on ebay with Lightning motors sitting in the engine bay.......usually sellers say: engine is in, but it not connected....ran out of funds....plans changed....etc....etc........read between the lines and hopefully you'll realize just how much of a challenge it would be to have a fully functional Lightning motor in an MN12
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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-21-2007, 02:36 AM
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for what Maestro said. Pretty much hit the nail right on the head. I still think an adaptation of a 4.6 Vortech on a 5.4 front cover would be your best bet to clear the hood and follow the Lightning's example, all without the ass pain of fooling with the hood issues.

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Ran @ Normal Operating Temps, No Race Tune, No Setup Changes from Daily Driven Configurations
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2.06 60' on Street Tires (BFG G-Force Super Sport 245/50/16)
3805 Lbs, Stock Exhaust Manifolds
Density Altitude = 4132'
That Run, Corrected for Standard Day
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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-21-2007, 09:45 PM
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can't you stroke the 4.6 in to a 5.1 fairly easy
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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-21-2007, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
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can't you stroke the 4.6 in to a 5.1 fairly easy
the point isnt to stroke a 4.6L, its to bore it.




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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-21-2007, 11:08 PM
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If you want a stroked 4.6 than look at the 5.4.lol

Joe is right,You bore the 4.6.I believe BigPete is running a 4.6 bored to a 5.0.

04 PI swap,SVO Supercharger 8-9 psi,Alcohol injection,39lbs Cobra injectors,XCal2-Walbro 255 LPH fuel pump,4.10 T-Lok,2003 4R70W built to withstand by RobertP,450hp JMOD,3800 circleD stall,trucool 4739 Trans Cooler,Dynotech 3.5 Driveshaft,70mm T/B,SCP Cold Air Intake,90mm LMAF,JBA headers,Magnaflow Midmount,No cats with 3inch piping,Vogtland 1.6inch drop,Cobra R's and xenon body kit.

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post #21 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-22-2007, 10:25 PM
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I believe BigPete is running a 4.6 bored to a 5.0.
As far as I know, TGJ (Todd) and I are the only two on the boards with one in a MN-12. AWDRocks has one in his Explorer.

Pete

-97 XR-7
-5.0 Big Bore ...
Ran @ Normal Operating Temps, No Race Tune, No Setup Changes from Daily Driven Configurations
9.0 @ 78 (1/8 Mile only in Abilene )
2.06 60' on Street Tires (BFG G-Force Super Sport 245/50/16)
3805 Lbs, Stock Exhaust Manifolds
Density Altitude = 4132'
That Run, Corrected for Standard Day
1/8 mile: 8.75 @ 82
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post #22 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-23-2007, 12:17 PM
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Add me to the list of folks with big bore 4.6L-2V engines in their MN12s. The engine was built by ModularPerformance, and is topped by a Roush (SVO) supercharger. The engine has been running for about three weeks now, still breaking it in. Due to the impending Michigan winter, I won't get the car to the dragstrip until next spring.

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post #23 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-23-2007, 12:32 PM
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Add me to the list of folks with big bore 4.6L-2V engines in their MN12s. The engine was built by ModularPerformance, and is topped by a Roush (SVO) supercharger. The engine has been running for about three weeks now, still breaking it in. Due to the impending Michigan winter, I won't get the car to the dragstrip until next spring.

Definitely keep us posted on that. I always thought a bored 4.6 with an SVO would be a good combo

Birdless

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post #24 of 23 (permalink) Old 11-25-2007, 09:58 AM
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The swap is not that hard to me. I have done it twice and can do it in a few days...

The NA needs heads and an intake. The intake is coming at HPS! You need an aluminum intake like I have just in case you wanted to blast her with NoX.

But this thread is asking about a SC 5.4L... There your best reference is Jake.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_Murder View Post
1) yes, the sohc 5.4 will fit
2) greenleafauto.com or your local junk yard
3) no, a dohc 5.4 will not fit w/out extensive modifications
4) greenleafauto.com $1,700; local junk yard $600 engine/tranny only
5) Allen
6) vfn hood, supercoupeperformance.com, cobra r hood
7) mild boost nothing, more than 15 lbs forge everything/lower compression
8) your call trac-lok, ox locker, open, 4.10 or 3.73 depending
9) 300-350 hp roughly

10) you need a chip go to sctchips or blueovalchips.com
I agree with Chris but wiht the following clarifications:
4) Though outdated this is what it cost me back in 99.

5) Allen would be a easier choice because their intake will flow better. At one time they were willing to make a wider version of the 4.6L T-Bird SC kit. This is the option I recommended to Jake but he was a Master Merchant Mechanic and wanted to build something. Plus he could not afford to buy a SC kit and his labor was free...

6) You may need a custom hood. If I had to do it all over again I would buy or modify my K-member so the whole thing sat lower. (keep stock suspension height and custom pinion angle) like I discussed here. Then a nice set of Kooks headers just may fit and improve things greatly. Otherwise you will have to mod your stock headers. I can give you info on that too...

8) 3.27 or 3.55 are the best for a 5.4L in a MN12. More than that it will be hard to drive. The choice should be made on your power band in a Dyno run. You are going to need a strong transmission. I have an Art-Carr.

9) Problem with Allen is that you are not going to get more than 350 HP with a M90. A 5.4L can use a larger blower. Remember your intake, heads, headers and exhaust must all be designed for high air flow. My heads/ headers are restrictive. Jakes was more so since he had NG heads. The system flow and HP will be determined by the lowest flow component.

10) To date most of the 5.4L's were tuned by Diablo. Not saying that Lonnie can not do it. We all know he is capable. But as far as I know to this date he has not tuned a 5.4L on a dyno. Diablo has the experience and the history at the factory.

To be honest I would look at a EEC tuner instead of the chip. The EEC tuner files (GUI) for a 94/ 95 are exceptional and will allow you to do whatever you want with that engine.

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Last edited by J.Miller; 11-27-2007 at 08:57 PM.
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