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post #1 of 124 (permalink) Old 01-01-2002, 11:44 AM Thread Starter
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Ban low performance driver's, not high performance cars.

"Any idiot can make a Mustang fast, but it takes a special kind of idiot to make a Thunderbird fast."

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post #2 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-18-2009, 12:21 AM Thread Starter
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Long post, any opinons feel free, let the build begin....

Ok after exhaustive research, and many many many many hours of going blind reading the internet and some informitive how to books until my eyes bled, I have come to this point. What started as a simple 5-speed swap into my 97 Sport, well that plan went out the window when I happened across a complete PI motor for $200. So then the build became a 5-speed swap with a PI motor upgrade, with a motor rebuilt on the cheap. Well that plan got shot to hell when I started researching, and realized just how much it costs to build these stinkin 4.6 motors.(it's my first one) So I decided not to cheap out and just build the motor right, and to the performance level I want. Anyways, alot of patience and a few blunders, a ton of research, and alot of advice from Nick @ Modular Head Shop have brought me here.

I now have a Teksid block that went .020 over, still not sure it needed to but whatever it's done, I kept the 99 GT 8 bolt crank, found a set of killer heads on here already done with the Comp 270's I wanted, 24lb injectors, 75mm TB, 90mm MAF and a set of headers I bought 4 years ago but just never got around to installing. I did get the correct rod and main bearings, hopefully the machine shop didn't screw me on the crank and make me have to buy another set, as they told me everything would remain standard sizes. I bought a new set of .020 over 11cc dish pistons and rings to match, and I have learned from Nick that I will need to notch the pistons in order to install the cams correctly, anyone got a guess how much, or will that be something the machine shop will have to tell me? The block, heads and rotating assembly are going to the shop tomorrow for a good checking over and the rotating assembly balanced.

Now I am fairly certain I have got this all figured out, my hodgepodge motor build with the Mark 8 block and the Windsor PI heads, I have the right valve covers, and I'm fairly sure I found the right part numbers I need for the pieced together timing set I need, the explorer screw in pivot pins and correct tensioner swing arms and all that stuff. I got the 94-95 T-Bird front cover I was instructed I need. I know where the hole is I need to drill in the block, and I have figured out the cooling mod everyone talks about for the plastic intakes. I have been informed by JL and guitarmaestro that the Cobra pan I got won't clear our K-member so my stock pan will have to suffice, or a Mark 8 pan. I'm not really in search of the extra quart you get from the Mark 8 pan as I already have a 9 quart system, I don't particuarly need the extra oil. I was trying to go the Cobra pan route so I could use the built in baffles and the factory windage tray, but I suppose I am out of luck with that route. I have never looked in a stock T-bird pan, any kind of baffling in there? Is the aftermarket windage tray an option, or my only option for a windage tray? Also I got the Cobra oil pump kit with the bigger pickup tube as I thought I could use that, will I be able to, or does anyone know what it will take to get that to work?

My next concern would be top end and front dress. I figure on reusing most of my front dress, with the exception of a new alternator as mine just quit and a new water pump cause thats just smart. Will the replacement I get for my 97 motor work? I have seen some discussion about mounting brackets and such being different, but I seem to remember my alternator only using 2 bolts to mount, did I forget something? Also I picked up a upper plenum and TB for a Mustang, what kind of mods am I looking at to get my throttle cable and such to work?? The TB is a 75mm BBK piece and the upper plenum is a factory piece, from what I don't know, but I'd guess Mustang.

I was told the heads I got were from an 03 GT, but from my research it seems that they might have come from a truck. They are Windsor casting, and everything I see says after 01 most of the GT's were Romeo castings. Also one of the books I have shows a sensor in the #5 intake runner that was supposedly truck/suv commonly, and the heads I got have that sensor still in place. Any guesses on what kinda sensor plug in issues/location trouble I might run into? Any coolant line location/routing issues I need to be on the lookout for? The nipple in the block valley that comes out of the backside of the water pump is kinda mangled, i.e. flattened out a bit and just generally messed up, any suggestions on what i can do the fix that? Any way to replace it, or am I looking at cutting off the flat part and replacing it with rubber hose?

I apologize for all the questions as well as the novel I have wrote out here, I'm just trying to make sure all my ducks are in a row. I have wore out the search button here, Modular Depot, Modular Fords and Corral, and these are the questions I have left. I'm fairly certain that once I have both motors out and next to each other I will probably be able to figure most all of this stuff out, and even though I might seem like an idiot with all these question, I promise this isn't my first dance, nor am I an idiot, lol. But any advice or stuff to look for right off the bat would be greatly appreciated. Also if anyone actually reads all of this and sees anything I missed, let me know lol. I'll be sure to post up pics if anyone cares to see them as I go along. I'd guess I'm about 2 weeks from engine assembly and then car teardown, so this should be fun. Thanks in advance for the help. Jim

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post #3 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-18-2009, 01:28 AM
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I can say your post sounds like you have indeed read a lot about this car. Nice build list for anyone who can afford it. are you still keeping the 5 speed in your build?

that engine sounds pretty damn nice. Are you planning to stay NA?

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post #4 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-18-2009, 07:19 AM
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If Windsor heads make sure you get Windsor valve covers from a Mustang. I have a set if needed.

Piston notching is typically $100-$200 if they have the fixtures or not.

Do the heads have stock valves still?

Tbird pan is the same as the Mark other than the Mark has the extra kickout for the extra quart. Both pans are miles better than the Cobra/Mustang as they have much more oil control. Use a Mark pickup no matter Tbird/Mark pan as it has an extra oil scraper brazed onto it. Don't worry about the windage tray with the Tbird/Mark pan.

The sensor at #5 is for water temp and goes into a blind hole. You can remove and toss it.
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post #5 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-18-2009, 08:01 AM
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Are you planning on using the HO oil pump? If so-you're wasting money and HP. There is absolutely no need for the HO pump on a 2V engine.
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post #6 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-18-2009, 08:58 AM
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agreed on the cobra HO oil pump...you'll be sending a whole lot of oil to the top of the heads for nothing, just more parasitic losses....the 2V oil pump will be fine, along with some TSS oil pump gears.

the water pump nipple that you say is damaged can be replaced

have you already acquired the tools for degreeing the cams?
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post #7 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-18-2009, 12:50 PM Thread Starter
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The 5-speed swap is still going to happen, when the motor comes out thr 4r70w will be coming with it and going into the used parts pile. I got a fresh T-45 and all the parts I need to do the swap, with alot of help on that from MadMikeyL. I do intend to keep it an N/A motor for the forseeable future, but I wouldn't mind a blower somewhere on down the line.

I have the Mustang Windsor valve covers that came on that complete PI motor I picked up, so I am good there. The whole motor is going to Pro Line Racing today up in Woodstock, I have come to find they are one of the higher end better shops for machine work on Mod motors. I called Modular Powerhouse directly and they tell me they do all of their machine work, so I'm hoping it won't be much of an issue for them to balance the bottom end and notch out the pistons. The heads I got have been totally reworked, with new aftermarket ss valves, so I don't have the factory lip to contend with, so I am a bit ahead of the game in that regards.

I have already bought the Cobra pump and pickup tube, it was actually cheaper than a replacement stock pump, so I thought I was doing better. Not a big deal, I have no problems returning it and getting just a stock piece. I can also get my hands on a Mark pan without any trouble, like I said, I was under the false impression the Cobra pan was better, and I suppose in the Mustang arena it may be. But thats was my goal was oil control, so if the Mark is better and no windage tray is needed, then thats what I shall get. I suppose I still have the old school build mentality where the windage trays are just cheap easy easy extra gains, but so be it. I don't want to be sending a bunch of extra oil to the top of the heads for sure, as I have learned there is already a ton of extra oil up there in the first place, no need for more.

Thanks for the info on the sensor, I was curious about that, whether or not I would have to plug the hole or anything. The water nipple that is damaged, got damaged by the guy that had that block before me, he was trying to replace it for some reason or another. He couldn't get it out, and basically only managed to mangle it, so I wasn't sure what I was getting into there. I have not gotten any of the tools I need to degree the cams in yet, although it is my intention to. The cams will get degreed in one way or another, thats for sure, just whether or not by me is still in question. Im still on the fence as to if I want to do it and put out the money for tools I will probably only use once or twice, and chance making a mistake, or just have Pro Line do it after I assemble the rest of the engine. I just have major issues with someone else building my engines, it's not something I am used to.

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post #8 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-18-2009, 10:01 PM
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I will be following this closely as you get closer to the t-45 swap.

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post #9 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-19-2009, 05:22 PM Thread Starter
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Truth be told I am actually more nervous about the motor build than the 5-speed swap. All of the info I got from the tech article and the help I got from MadMikeyL I am confident that will come off without a hitch.

I brought the motor to the machine shop, and as I suspected I got burned from the first shop. I paid for block cleaning and decking, didn't get that, I paid for crank cleaning and polishing, didnt get that. So now all that has to be redone. All I can hope now is he didn't lie to me about the mains being good as far as a line hone is concerned, and hope he didn't lie to me about the bearings being able to stay std. size, especially considering I have already bought all the new bearing is std. size. So I brought the block, rotating assembly, and heads up for work, and got handed an estimate for 1600 bucks. Needless to say took me a minute to pick my jaw up off the floor, but so be it, pay for what you get I suppose. The other downside is he told me 4-5 weeks on the long side, and 2 weeks on the short side. So looks like I'm delayed again, hopefully I can still make Fun Ford here in Atlanta Labor Day weekend.

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post #10 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-20-2009, 09:46 AM
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Truth be told I am actually more nervous about the motor build than the 5-speed swap. All of the info I got from the tech article and the help I got from MadMikeyL I am confident that will come off without a hitch.

I brought the motor to the machine shop, and as I suspected I got burned from the first shop. I paid for block cleaning and decking, didn't get that, I paid for crank cleaning and polishing, didnt get that. So now all that has to be redone. All I can hope now is he didn't lie to me about the mains being good as far as a line hone is concerned, and hope he didn't lie to me about the bearings being able to stay std. size, especially considering I have already bought all the new bearing is std. size. So I brought the block, rotating assembly, and heads up for work, and got handed an estimate for 1600 bucks. Needless to say took me a minute to pick my jaw up off the floor, but so be it, pay for what you get I suppose. The other downside is he told me 4-5 weeks on the long side, and 2 weeks on the short side. So looks like I'm delayed again, hopefully I can still make Fun Ford here in Atlanta Labor Day weekend.
If you want it done right,you need to call Aric at Injected. He's somewhat local to you,and is a honest person that'll do a good job for you.
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post #11 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-20-2009, 03:06 PM Thread Starter
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I wasn't aware he did machine work. I already know he is getting the car for the dyno tune and such. But either way the parts are at Pro Line, and they are for sure of of the best in the area, afterall they built one of the fastest Mustangs on the planet. That and I have never heard a bad word about them, and I know alot of guys that have had motors built there. But I appreciate the heads up just the same, thanks.

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post #12 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-27-2009, 11:17 AM Thread Starter
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Well it seems I can't win for losing here. I got a call from Pro Line yesterday, apparently the first machine shop bored the block .030 over instead of .020 like they told. I called down there to figure out wtf, and the guy says he told me it had to go that far blah blah blah. Anyways, I won't get that far into that aspect of it, but I wanted your opinions, how bad off would I be with this block .030 over now?? I know it's not recomended to go more than .020 over, should I get it resleeved, or will it be allright the way it is??

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post #13 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-27-2009, 11:35 AM
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No engine advice but, you need to check your receipt form the 1st shop and possibly call BBB, and Chamber of Commerce

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post #14 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-27-2009, 05:48 PM
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No engine advice but, you need to check your receipt form the 1st shop and possibly call BBB, and Chamber of Commerce
I would do the same thing as well. Its uncalled for that they bored it further than you asked and didnt tell you about it. Now you have .020 over pistons for a .030 over block!

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post #15 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-27-2009, 06:16 PM
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depending on cost, i'd say resleeve or look for another aluminum block that still has stock bore
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post #16 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-28-2009, 03:13 AM Thread Starter
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Well calls to BBB or anything of the like will prolly not be answered. The receipt just say block cleaning, overbore and thats all no specifics given. And I talked to the guy that did all the work and he swears he told me it had to go .030 over. So basically my word against his. And I am experienced enough to know thats a losing battle to fight. From my point of view that block didn't need to be bored at all, but what do I know, I figured this guy had at least somewhat of a clue as to what he was talking about. But I can say this I never in a million years would have told him ok bore it .030 over, because I know that is not recomended. Now I have .020 over brand new pistons and rings, and a .030 over block. But barring a resleeve, if I was to come up with .030 over pistons and rings would I be ok, or looking at a motor that was going to run hot on me, or be weak on me??

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post #17 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-29-2009, 08:05 AM
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30 over is fine IMHO.
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post #18 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-29-2009, 09:41 PM Thread Starter
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Well a trip to Pro Line today, they said they wouldn't even consider sleeveing that block. Said it was to expensive, that I could buy 3 or 4 more blocks for what it would take to resleeve it. But they did say I should experience no trouble with the motor being .030 over. Good part of that is when I went to talk to them I went back into the shop area to get my pistons, I saw at least 5 4.6 motors being assembled, so I'm gonna hope they have a good idea what they are talking about. And I called the place I got the new pistons and rings from, they said no problem to do a straight swap to what I need, so a good news day I'd say. So off to the post office tomorrow with the pistons, and then hopefully I can get this back on track.

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post #19 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-29-2009, 09:56 PM
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Glad to hear, but still file a complaint with the BBB.

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post #20 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-29-2009, 10:27 PM
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thats good news......on a side note, what's being done to the other 4.6s in that shop?
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post #21 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-30-2009, 12:13 AM Thread Starter
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I'd rather file complaints with the people that feed that particular machine shop with the most business, hurt them that way. wheter or not it suceeds is any bodys guess, but with the news I got today, I'll take my small vicotry, return my blood pressure to normal and move on.

As for what was being done to the other motors, I honestly couldn't say with any certainty. I saw short blocks on stands in various states of assembly, heads being assembled, both 4v and 2v. I did see one motor on a pallet that hadn't been assembled yet, but it did have a blower setup with it as well as all forged internals. I saw 2 sets 4v heads that were being reworked and they looked absolutely brand spankin new, and another set of 2v Romeo heads that were also being reworked and looking brand new. I can't say I have been in alot of machine shops, but the 3 or 4 I have been in have mostly been fairly dark and not dirty but just cruddy looking so to speak. Stuff piled on shelves and scattered here and there, Pro Line is in no way like that. I could have sat down with a 4 course gourmet meal and felt comfortable enough to eat off that floor. Everything is organized on pallets together stacked neatly on shelves and clean as a whistle. Honestly the dirtiest looking parts in that whole place that I saw were mine, and thats because they haven't started on it yet. Needless to say when I walked out of that shop I had a very good feeling about the direction my build was heading in. Hopefully once I get past this bump in the road the rest will be things I can handle without much headache.

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post #22 of 124 (permalink) Old 08-05-2009, 10:32 PM Thread Starter
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I swear to everything that is good and holy I am going to kill someone before this friggin build is done. Got a call from the machine shop today and needless to say no good news. I paid for an overbore I didn't want, and doubt I needed, and ends up I am going to have to pay for the second shop to hone the friggin taper they put into the cylinders out!! How in the heck do you bore a taper into a block with a boring ?? No damn torque plates best I can figure, yet another thing I was lied to about. And to ad fuel to my raging inferno, they tell me that the crank I paid to have polished that wasn't, and after repeatedly asking what size the journals were going to end up at and was assured over and over again they were std/std, turns out they never even put a damn set of clipers on the crank because it is junk at .040 under on both the rods and the mains!!! Needless to say I am more than a bit hot at this point. I will stop by the shop tomorrow and retreive my junk crankshaft and then use every bit of will power I have to keep myself out of the other shop and resisting the urge to use it for a baseball bat until sometime next week when I have calmed down some and then go there and get some money back, this is crazy. I suppose the only bright spot for the day is the rest of the block is good and in spec, and the heads are checking out ok so far, so once I get them a new crank, it won't be long until I can actually get started on this whole thing. Hopefully the bumps in the road are behing me and all goes well from here.



stepping off the ranting soapbox now, thanks, lol.

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post #23 of 124 (permalink) Old 08-07-2009, 07:35 AM
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If there is a taper then you might not be able to hone it out without making the bore too big.

Its easy for a newbie to hone a taper into a bore if its not one of the fancy automated machines.

Sounds like you need to stay away from that shop.
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post #24 of 124 (permalink) Old 08-07-2009, 03:49 PM
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I just read today about a guy who tried to use an 8-bolt crank with a MarkVIII oil pan, and the counterweights for the 8-bolt crank are too big, it wiped out the baffles in the Mark pan.
Just FYI. Hoping to save you from more headaches...lol.
As far as your block, it might be better to just get another used block and start fresh.
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post #25 of 124 (permalink) Old 08-07-2009, 08:40 PM Thread Starter
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They got it all out, so it's good to go now. I am just amazed they were able to do it in the first place. But a friend of mine tells me, and I have heard this, with the aluminum block, if they don't use enough coolant and go to fast the heat will mess it up. Either way whats done is done and that part is fixed. The block is fine I won't have any trouble. I have found another crank, hopefully it works out better for me than the last one. I suppose thats the bad part though, I wouldnt have cared in the least if that crank had been junk from the start. I would have just appreciated being told from the get go it was crap, before I spent money to polish it and buy bearings for it, which I obviously got robbed on both fronts, because I have the wrong bearings and it was never polished. But I will say I haven't heard of the lorger counterweights getting into the pan before, thats a new one on me. I do know they have large counterweight cranks and smaller ones, I guess I will have to see what I get and go from there. Thanks for the heads up though.

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post #26 of 124 (permalink) Old 11-23-2009, 11:41 AM Thread Starter
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6 months later, I finally got everything back. A little slow for my taste but so be it the machine work is complete, and it all looks spectacular. The block got a good finish hone, deck the head surface, line honed the main journals, the crank got a micro polish, the pistons on the rods and the whole thing balanced. I ran into a little trouble with the heads, 2 of the cam journals were binding the cam so that need to be line honed as well, but that got taken care of and thread inserts for the spark plugs. They notched out the pistons for clearance with the valves, and according to the notes they made on the heads, I have .055 on the intake valve and .170 on the exhaust valve. I will check it again when I mock up the motor just to be sure, but that doesn't seem like its right or even possible. Not with aftermarket valves and notched pistons, something tells me they didn't do something right.


For anyone doing a search on how to replace the water pump nipple for whatever reason, I got 2 words for you, slide hammer. Mine was all beat up, and I couldn't get it to budge for nothing. Beating on it with a hammer managed to accomplish nothing but further damage, to the point I had flattened it comepletely and folded it over, took a 3/8 extension straightened it back out and took the end off of my slide hammer forced it through there put a nut on the end a few smacks with that and it pulled right out.

I'll be doing some more in depth cleaning and prep work tonite before I start to assemble this thing, so I will bring my camera with me and get some pics of all the nice shiny parts for you all to see.

Ban low performance driver's, not high performance cars.

"Any idiot can make a Mustang fast, but it takes a special kind of idiot to make a Thunderbird fast."

Last edited by CableguyJJS3; 11-23-2009 at 11:48 AM.
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post #27 of 124 (permalink) Old 11-23-2009, 11:54 AM
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You do realize that the first day you drive the car, someone is going to hit you and total it right?

Sorry, I couldn't resist!! I'm glad to hear things are progressing better than the start of this thread.

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post #28 of 124 (permalink) Old 11-23-2009, 12:42 PM Thread Starter
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Man why you gotta stay stuff like that. lol. I hope not cause I'm lookin forard to drivin the crap out of this thing once it gets done, it ought to be alot of fun.

Ban low performance driver's, not high performance cars.

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post #29 of 124 (permalink) Old 11-23-2009, 12:50 PM
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I've got 24 lb injectors if you're interested. But I think you might have to go bigger :/ I'll sell them pretty cheap though. I just swapped in my 39#. Let me know and good luck with the build. It sounds like it's going to be a pretty nice upgrade.

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post #30 of 124 (permalink) Old 11-23-2009, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CableguyJJS3 View Post
Man why you gotta stay stuff like that. lol. I hope not cause I'm lookin forard to drivin the crap out of this thing once it gets done, it ought to be alot of fun.
Just trying to spread some of my joy around....

http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=53906

That happened about 3 weeks after I finally got the suspension 100% completed.

It does sound like a nice setup you'll have!!

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