4.6 nitrous build...a few questions - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-09-2013, 10:34 AM Thread Starter
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4.6 nitrous build...a few questions

Hey guys, I just picked up an extra motor that I will be starting a build on in a couple of weeks. My plans are just a mild build to go in my current daily driver (97 cougar). All I plan to do is put a set of ported pi heads that I have on, with my bullitt intake, a set of cams, and a good set of rods in it. I want it to be able to handle a 200 or so shot of nitrous also.

My first question is do I need a set of pistons also, or are stock ok to run in the 500hp range?

These are the cams I plan to go with? with springs also of course:
http://www.modmaxracing.com/product_p/37011460-29.htm

Rods:
http://www.modmaxracing.com/product_p/65025059.htm

If you guys think I should go with a different set of cams, or better rods, or I need a set of pistons also, just let me know. I'm not really shooting for big hp, I just want a respectable daily driver that I can go to the track and spray it, and it will hold together. Thanks in advance guys!

--Ben
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post #2 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-09-2013, 11:12 AM
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I would go with better pistons while you're in there doing rods.

Michael M. ASE P2 Automobile Parts Specialist.

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post #3 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-09-2013, 11:41 AM Thread Starter
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Yea, I'm sure I am going to get a lot of heck for trying to get by with stock pistons, but I definitely would rather keep stock because they costs so much! then I have to get into which size to buy, whether to bore it or not, which compression ratio I need. I really didn't want to get into that, but if it's absolutely necessary, I will. Are the stock pistons full floating? I haven't gotten into the motor I have yet.

--Ben
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post #4 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-09-2013, 01:48 PM
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If you can't afford to upgrade your pistons, then you shouldn't be doing nitrous (at least not a 200 shot). I would make sure the bottom end is all squared away before doing any power adders like boost (above 10 PSI) or nitrous (above 75-100 shot).

Michael M. ASE P2 Automobile Parts Specialist.

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post #5 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-09-2013, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mgino96tbird46 View Post
If you can't afford to upgrade your pistons, then you shouldn't be doing nitrous (at least not a 200 shot). I would make sure the bottom end is all squared away before doing any power adders like boost (above 10 PSI) or nitrous (above 75-100 shot).
X2 all the way. If you don't do it now you will really regret if you stress those stock pistons too hard, and a 200 shot is a lot lol. What kind of kit are you running? Wet or dry kit? If your running a dry kit and you spin and hit the rev limiter on those stock pistons too many times while the nitrous is active, your gonna regret not upgrading them when you had the motor torn apart.
I read this on this site and it applies to every build. Fast, cheap, reliable... Your build can only be two of these words. Which two do you choose? If its fast and reliable, it's not cheap. If its cheap and reliable, it's not fast. If its fast and cheap, it's not gonna be reliable.

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post #6 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-09-2013, 02:59 PM
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Some things to learn here quickly

1. No 200 shot of anything works on a stock bottom end pistons or rods. 500 HP range.. What you smokin??
2. Stock bottom end WILL handle a 125 dry shot indefinately if used, tuned correctly & no fuel issues and bottle pressures monitored.
3. My stock bottom end first had nitrous on it in 1999. Ran till last year only down due to fuel problem. Yes, fuel problems and ate 2 pistons and ruined a block.
4. If you are planning on putting aftermarket rods in it go with forged, coated aftermarket pistons, build the engine and do it right.
5. Cams used can be the NA variety on a small shot stock set up. You start needing specific nitrous cams if you are building something to take those 200HP power levels as the exhaust timing and duration must be changed (Particularly on the exhaust side) to work with the nitrous to keep the cylinders happy. The LSA will be changed on the cams on larger nitrous shots.
6. The Bullitt intake will work fine with the spray. Mine does!
7. Make sure you have an adequate aftermarket fuel pump and regulator and enough injector to keep the fuel trims good.
8. Timing can be your friend or enemy but less is better on anything over a 75 shot- Wet or dray.
9. Use good fuel if you are going to beat on it on a track day.
10. Beat on it, abuse it or have something go wrong and soon you'll know what its like to HAVE to build one.
11. Make sure you have good exhaust on the car too to scavage the exhaust.

They can be fast, cheap and reliable as long as you have no issues or mistreat them. Mine has been hammering away for years but like all things it has finally expired. (Again, due to an unexpected fuel issue) It is what it is!!!!! Its proof though of what CAN BE DONE on a stock set up with spray if its handled correctly.

Steve
1996 Cougar XR7 Special Edition (Street & Strip)
"There's a bad, built NA 4.6L COMING Spring-Summer 2018"

Elite member of the Halfshaft snapping, Auburn eating, Tranny crunching, Piston Melting, Tire lifting, 500+ lb ft Torque Club.

Cougar ET-Stock 4.6 shortblock/Stock PI headswap Bullitt NA 12.94 @ 105+
Nitrous 11.75 @ 114 MPH

2008 Ford Powerstroke 6.4 TT F250 4X4 Supercrew: 12.82 @ 105 MPH

"IN MEMORY OF MY FRIENDS JOEL BENDER 1979-2006", JOHNNY LANGTON 1975-2011, and MICHAEL VIVERETTE 1953-2013"

Last edited by 1MTNCAT; 09-09-2013 at 03:07 PM.
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post #7 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-09-2013, 07:07 PM
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Those cams will work if you grind the lip off the intake valve, otherwise its going to be in the piston. Get a set of cheap aftermarket rings as the tight ring gap on the stock piston is what kills them the fastest. Those rods will be fine. 125-150 shot is all I would do without going to an Edelbrock intake, one good puddle in the bottom plenum of that Bullitt and its going to be shrapnel.
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post #8 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-09-2013, 07:08 PM
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You need 2618 alloy pistons. H-beams handle compression a lil better than I beams.
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post #9 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-09-2013, 08:29 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 1MTNCAT View Post
1. No 200 shot of anything works on a stock bottom end pistons or rods. 500 HP range.. What you smokin??
2. Stock bottom end WILL handle a 125 dry shot indefinately if used, tuned correctly & no fuel issues and bottle pressures monitored.
3. My stock bottom end first had nitrous on it in 1999. Ran till last year only down due to fuel problem. Yes, fuel problems and ate 2 pistons and ruined a block.
4. If you are planning on putting aftermarket rods in it go with forged, coated aftermarket pistons, build the engine and do it right.
5. Cams used can be the NA variety on a small shot stock set up. You start needing specific nitrous cams if you are building something to take those 200HP power levels as the exhaust timing and duration must be changed (Particularly on the exhaust side) to work with the nitrous to keep the cylinders happy. The LSA will be changed on the cams on larger nitrous shots.
6. The Bullitt intake will work fine with the spray. Mine does!
7. Make sure you have an adequate aftermarket fuel pump and regulator and enough injector to keep the fuel trims good.
8. Timing can be your friend or enemy but less is better on anything over a 75 shot- Wet or dray.
9. Use good fuel if you are going to beat on it on a track day.
10. Beat on it, abuse it or have something go wrong and soon you'll know what its like to HAVE to build one.
11. Make sure you have good exhaust on the car too to scavage the exhaust.

They can be fast, cheap and reliable as long as you have no issues or mistreat them. Mine has been hammering away for years but like all things it has finally expired. (Again, due to an unexpected fuel issue) It is what it is!!!!! Its proof though of what CAN BE DONE on a stock set up with spray if its handled correctly.
I'm not smokin anything I promise....lol. Ok, so I need a set of pistons for sure. Understood. and maybe a 150 shot will be a better choice. I just thought with a built bottom end, it could handle it, considering my car has been taking a 100 wet shot for about a year now (countless bottle fills) on a 190k motor. Fuel won't be an issue, It's already got a 255 walbro, a couple months old. It will be a wet shot of nitrous, I don't use a dry shot. Exhaust won't be an issue either as the car has 2.5" duals front to back with no cats, x pipe, and magnapacks at the back.

So maybe these pistons?
http://www.modmaxracing.com/product_p/prb11883.htm

Or 18cc?
http://www.modmaxracing.com/product_p/prb10178.htm

I see these are both 2618 alloy, so which cc should I go with?

Also if anyone thinks I should go with a different set of cams for what I'm building this for, give me some input. Any and all input will be seriously considered as this is my first 4.6 build. I've build several other motors, but not an over head cam yet, so I'm excited to start! Got the motor loaded up in the truck today and will start tear down tomorrow!

--Ben

Last edited by bsmith181992; 09-09-2013 at 08:32 PM. Reason: added info
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post #10 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-09-2013, 08:59 PM
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I'm not smokin anything I promise....lol. Ok, so I need a set of pistons for sure. Understood. and maybe a 150 shot will be a better choice. I just thought with a built bottom end, it could handle it, considering my car has been taking a 100 wet shot for about a year now (countless bottle fills) on a 190k motor. Fuel won't be an issue, It's already got a 255 walbro, a couple months old. It will be a wet shot of nitrous, I don't use a dry shot. Exhaust won't be an issue either as the car has 2.5" duals front to back with no cats, x pipe, and magnapacks at the back.

So maybe these pistons?
http://www.modmaxracing.com/product_p/prb11883.htm

Or 18cc?
http://www.modmaxracing.com/product_p/prb10178.htm

I see these are both 2618 alloy, so which cc should I go with?

Also if anyone thinks I should go with a different set of cams for what I'm building this for, give me some input. Any and all input will be seriously considered as this is my first 4.6 build. I've build several other motors, but not an over head cam yet, so I'm excited to start! Got the motor loaded up in the truck today and will start tear down tomorrow!
I run a 125 dry shot and have for many years. What system are you running with your wet kit?

With a built bottom end it can handle a whole lot more. You didn't say you were building a bottom end just replacing rods?? If you are building a bottom end you can go a whole lot more.

Here would be my choice: http://www.excessiveracing.com/pisto...s/13303-1.aspx With a good set of heads and cams you should have the valve reliefs cut for the valves/cams clearance.

I run a fuel cell and large Aeromotive pump with 1/2 " fuel line feed to the rail and 3/8" return lines to the cell with an Aeromotive regulator controlling the pressure.

I run a 3" dual exhaust through X pipe to side pipes and turn downs at the front of the rear tires. My bottle neck has been the JBA headers which I plan to replace when I put a new motor in.

Steve
1996 Cougar XR7 Special Edition (Street & Strip)
"There's a bad, built NA 4.6L COMING Spring-Summer 2018"

Elite member of the Halfshaft snapping, Auburn eating, Tranny crunching, Piston Melting, Tire lifting, 500+ lb ft Torque Club.

Cougar ET-Stock 4.6 shortblock/Stock PI headswap Bullitt NA 12.94 @ 105+
Nitrous 11.75 @ 114 MPH

2008 Ford Powerstroke 6.4 TT F250 4X4 Supercrew: 12.82 @ 105 MPH

"IN MEMORY OF MY FRIENDS JOEL BENDER 1979-2006", JOHNNY LANGTON 1975-2011, and MICHAEL VIVERETTE 1953-2013"
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post #11 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-09-2013, 09:20 PM Thread Starter
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I run a 125 dry shot and have for many years. What system are you running with your wet kit?

With a built bottom end it can handle a whole lot more. You didn't say you were building a bottom end just replacing rods?? If you are building a bottom end you can go a whole lot more.

Here would be my choice: http://www.excessiveracing.com/pisto...s/13303-1.aspx With a good set of heads and cams you should have the valve reliefs cut for the valves/cams clearance.

I run a fuel cell and large Aeromotive pump with 1/2 " fuel line feed to the rail and 3/8" return lines to the cell with an Aeromotive regulator controlling the pressure.

I run a 3" dual exhaust through X pipe to side pipes and turn downs at the front of the rear tires. My bottle neck has been the JBA headers which I plan to replace when I put a new motor in.
It's a sniper kit, soon to be a zex kit I hope. I like the zex kits, they give a cleaner look and I can do a window switch so if I were to hit rev limiter by accident, at least it wouldn't be spraying.

And your right, I didn't say I was going to build it, I just thought the stock pistons could handle 450-500 hp, I guess I was wrong.

I'm definitely using ported pi head for now. Maybe some trickflow heads later and different cams, but not right now.

That piston and rod combination is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you. That is a really good price for manley h beams and those pistons! Which dish do you recommend? These will more than likely be the set I go with for sure.

Should I try and find a set of headers or will stock manifolds be ok?

--Ben
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post #12 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-09-2013, 09:42 PM
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Should I try and find a set of headers or will stock manifolds be ok?
even with stock cams, there's 20HP in a set of longtubes if you can make them work.
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post #13 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-09-2013, 09:46 PM Thread Starter
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even with stock cams, there's 20HP in a set of longtubes if you can make them work.
I will try and find a set then. It's to my understanding that MAC longtubes is what i want? I know that one tube on the driver's side needs to be re routed with these and that's it. Or is there a better or easier to install set?

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post #14 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-10-2013, 10:23 AM
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Well if you are doing pistons/rods/longtubes I would do a MHS Nitrous only 2.5 or 3 cam. Thats good for a wide flat RPM 300-325HP NA with an Edelbrock intake. You will need a real converter though, but from 3500~7200 its a happy happy combo that will handle a bigger shot much easier. The bottom feeder plenums of the PI and Bullitts are not happy with large nitrous sprays, and the Edelbrock prefers a narrower LSA with a very early intake valve opening for a street/strip combo like this.
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post #15 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-10-2013, 11:16 AM Thread Starter
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Well if you are doing pistons/rods/longtubes I would do a MHS Nitrous only 2.5 or 3 cam. Thats good for a wide flat RPM 300-325HP NA with an Edelbrock intake. You will need a real converter though, but from 3500~7200 its a happy happy combo that will handle a bigger shot much easier. The bottom feeder plenums of the PI and Bullitts are not happy with large nitrous sprays, and the Edelbrock prefers a narrower LSA with a very early intake valve opening for a street/strip combo like this.
Thanks for your input! Although I would rather keep my bullitt intake and go with a smaller shot, because let's be honest, its by far the best looking intake on the market. Lol. But later I just might want to throw a little boost at it, and I know the bullitt LOVES boost

--Ben
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post #16 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-11-2013, 09:11 AM
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You need to decide upfront if you will boost it or not, and pick the compression ratio accordingly. If you change your plan down the road, you might have too high compression to run much boost.

I have always been a believer of choosing boost or nitrous. Pick one. If you try to do both, you wont get the most out of either.

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post #17 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-11-2013, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
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You need to decide upfront if you will boost it or not, and pick the compression ratio accordingly. If you change your plan down the road, you might have too high compression to run much boost.

I have always been a believer of choosing boost or nitrous. Pick one. If you try to do both, you wont get the most out of either.

Al
Well If I boost it, it will be way down the road, a couple years maybe even. So it will be a nitrous motor right now. I'd rather build a boost friendly motor for later, I know I won't get the most out of either that way, so if I can't build for both, that's fine. Maybe I'll build another motor later for boost.

--Ben
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You need to decide upfront if you will boost it or not, and pick the compression ratio accordingly. If you change your plan down the road, you might have too high compression to run much boost.

I have always been a believer of choosing boost or nitrous. Pick one. If you try to do both, you wont get the most out of either.

Al
That is exactly correct. Its hard enough trying to get an optimim combination between NA and the Bottle adder. You have to give up something. Always a bit of compromise. But on a build (Unless you have really deep pockets) you need to get the combination right the first time with the compression and all associated parts, especially with a blower.

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1996 Cougar XR7 Special Edition (Street & Strip)
"There's a bad, built NA 4.6L COMING Spring-Summer 2018"

Elite member of the Halfshaft snapping, Auburn eating, Tranny crunching, Piston Melting, Tire lifting, 500+ lb ft Torque Club.

Cougar ET-Stock 4.6 shortblock/Stock PI headswap Bullitt NA 12.94 @ 105+
Nitrous 11.75 @ 114 MPH

2008 Ford Powerstroke 6.4 TT F250 4X4 Supercrew: 12.82 @ 105 MPH

"IN MEMORY OF MY FRIENDS JOEL BENDER 1979-2006", JOHNNY LANGTON 1975-2011, and MICHAEL VIVERETTE 1953-2013"
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You can have boost and compression too. That's my plan.

But we can all agree that if you throw a big shot of nitrous on stock pistons, you're gonna have a bad time.

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post #20 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-11-2013, 10:06 AM Thread Starter
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That is exactly correct. Its hard enough trying to get an optimim combination between NA and the Bottle adder. You have to give up something. Always a bit of compromise. But on a build (Unless you have really deep pockets) you need to get the combination right the first time with the compression and all associated parts, especially with a blower.
I definitely do not have deep enough pockets to not get it right the first time. lol. So no boost for this one then. I was just thinking ahead on what I might do with the car, and it was only thoughts anyway. But I won't get rid of my Bullitt intake, so it looks like it's going to be strictly an NA build with a 150 shot. So maybe a set of more aggressive cams is in order considering I can't spray the shot I was expecting to with my intake? Or should I stick with mild cams considering I'm only using pi heads?

--Ben
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post #21 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-11-2013, 11:05 AM
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You can have boost and compression too. That's my plan.
Yeah but how much? We're talking 11.0-12.0 Compression or upwards not blower motor compression of 8.5 to maybe 10.0 or so, give or take.

There is a difference!

I'm sure Nick can give him a good combo solution for his needs. Maybe jump to set of stage 4-4.5 nitrous cams ROFL!!!!!!!!!

Steve
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"There's a bad, built NA 4.6L COMING Spring-Summer 2018"

Elite member of the Halfshaft snapping, Auburn eating, Tranny crunching, Piston Melting, Tire lifting, 500+ lb ft Torque Club.

Cougar ET-Stock 4.6 shortblock/Stock PI headswap Bullitt NA 12.94 @ 105+
Nitrous 11.75 @ 114 MPH

2008 Ford Powerstroke 6.4 TT F250 4X4 Supercrew: 12.82 @ 105 MPH

"IN MEMORY OF MY FRIENDS JOEL BENDER 1979-2006", JOHNNY LANGTON 1975-2011, and MICHAEL VIVERETTE 1953-2013"
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post #22 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-11-2013, 11:47 AM
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Sounds like a fun build! Post pics as you go!

You said you have the 255lph fuel pump, do you have other upgrades on your fuel system? What size injectors are you running and what do you plan on running?

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post #23 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-11-2013, 12:25 PM
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IMHO from what I see I would do the PI heads and stock bottom end he already has, a set of Stage 2 Nitrous cams, 100-125 shot, real converter, real tune, real gears, and call it a day. Anything else is a HUGE extra step in pocket book depletion and at the moment its all undecided what route to go.
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post #24 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-11-2013, 01:20 PM Thread Starter
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IMHO from what I see I would do the PI heads and stock bottom end he already has, a set of Stage 2 Nitrous cams, 100-125 shot, real converter, real tune, real gears, and call it a day. Anything else is a HUGE extra step in pocket book depletion and at the moment its all undecided what route to go.
What you just listed is what I basically have right now minus the cams. I don't need a converter because i run a t-45 trans. My current mods are:

t-45 swap
bullitt intake
twin 57mm tb
pi heads, cams
bullitt intake
3.73 gears
100 shot
tune

I am ready to build a motor because this motor has a lot of miles on it, and I want something tougher and faster.

--Ben
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post #25 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-11-2013, 01:24 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tbird1997 View Post
Sounds like a fun build! Post pics as you go!

You said you have the 255lph fuel pump, do you have other upgrades on your fuel system? What size injectors are you running and what do you plan on running?
Currently, I'm running stock injectors, but your comment brings up another question that I have. I have a set of 42lb injectors that I got a while back and have been waiting to be used. My question is will those be complete overkill or will they work? I could always post on the forums and trade for a smaller set, but I'd rather have too much injector for now, and still have plenty left for more upgrades later.

I also have a 90mm maf that I plan to use with this motor.

--Ben
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post #26 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-11-2013, 01:33 PM Thread Starter
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Thansk tbird1997! Here are a couple pics of what I'm starting with (Me in the white shirt..lol)

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

This build probably won't be finished until November, as I am doing this build with my college class (I'm group leader) So I have to go slow and teach a few students as I go.

--Ben
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post #27 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-11-2013, 06:35 PM
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If you take the front cover off, there's a series of numbers stamped into the front of the block with a dot matrix metal scribe.

There's a set of those numbers that can tell you what pistons are in that engine without taking the heads off.

I think GM posted a pic of some of them a while back; it will be a series between 1 and 3, 1 being smallest bore, 3 being biggest.

My mark engine was a 22223222, with one piston 3.572, the others 3.552, IIRC. It weighs more too.

EDIT: Actual sizes of factory pistons, not my guess above. There is a 1.5g difference in a 2 and a 3.
Piston · Diameter g 0.028 mm (0.0010 inch)
· Coded Red 1 90.185-90.205 mm (3.55-3.551 inch)
· Coded Blue 2 90.195-90.215 mm (3.55-3.551 inch)
· Coded Yellow 3 90.205-90.225 mm (3.551-3.552 inch)
Coated Piston-to-Bore Clearance -0.005-0.025 mm (-0.002/+0.001 inch)


Likewise, there are other numbers that indicate bearing sizes, but IDK how to read those.

You want to buy pistons, even if they're new HE pistons, and not forged; the engine will work much better if you bore it to even size, match the pistons in weight, and balance the crank.

These engines are pretty darn expensive to rebuild to miss a step, especially if you want to use nitrous.

I personally would not rebuild a stock iron 4.6 block; unless it was for a truck.

There are tons of aluminum alternatives, early and late.

80lbs in the front is a big difference, all around.

ymmv.

EDIT: Was the intake already off that engine, in the JY? That reeeeeaally looks rough...

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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Last edited by Grog6; 09-14-2013 at 11:44 AM.
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post #28 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-11-2013, 07:18 PM
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That looks to be a 94/5 motor too, although I'm just going by the two port PCV elbow. Personally I'd at minimum start with a 96+ block with the cross-bolted #5 main.

-Matt
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post #29 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-11-2013, 07:20 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
That looks to be a 94/5 motor too, although I'm just going by the two port PCV elbow. Personally I'd at minimum start with a 96+ block with the cross-bolted #5 main.
Its a 96 motor

--Ben
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post #30 of 252 (permalink) Old 09-12-2013, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bsmith181992 View Post
....I am ready to build a motor....

And the thousand dollar question, how many thousand can you budget total on this.
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