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post #1 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-21-2013, 05:39 PM Thread Starter
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250whp and 300lb/ft

I posted this up on modularfords.com with no replies yet, and you guys are always helpful.

Now that my thunderbird is away for the winter, Its time to plan some mods for it. As much as I wanted to stay NPI I realize that my goal of at least 250HP at the wheels and 300lb/ft at the wheels is out of the question without boost and alot of money. So PI swap it is. I'm going to go with parts from MHS. Before I ask them which heads and cam I should use, I thought it would be good to ask all of you guys what you suggest.

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post #2 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-21-2013, 06:21 PM
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Gonna need more than just a PI swap to get there. Even with all the main bolt ons I think you'll be just under. Bigger cams maybe even ported heads. 1MTNCAT got it with just PI heads (not ported) mild cams and a bullitt intake but not everyone will get that. Might want to look into E85 too..

What's the budget? Doing work yourself or paying someone? Also why 250 hp and 300 tq? Higher rear end gears will give you that feeling in the seat of your pants without adding any power. Hands down the best mod for a N/A MN12 boat IMO

PI swap with exhaust and 3.73/4.10 gears with a higher stall will give you a huge improvement without killing the wallet.

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Last edited by Tbird1997; 11-21-2013 at 06:40 PM.
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post #3 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-21-2013, 06:24 PM
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Last pi swap I did made 242rwhp stock 95 with pi swap cat back exhaust and pulleys

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post #4 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-21-2013, 06:52 PM Thread Starter
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I am interested in the frpp 4.10 differential, I am debating on that being my first major mod. Would it make sense to do the differential before the PI swap?

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post #5 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-21-2013, 07:14 PM
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Have a look at my setup that puts down pretty much exactly those numbers... although I was hoping it'd be more than that when I picked out all the parts, lol. Here is the build thread. http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=137963

I've got a less-than-optimal intake though and I could really benefit from some good headers (I'd estimate I'd have an additional 20-30 RWHP with a good intake swap and mid-lengths/longtubes) A full-on stage 2.5 cam would have been a few extra peak HP on my setup, but I was more concerned with "area under the curve" than peak numbers since it's a street car.

You can do this npi, but you'll need some good heads and cams at the very least, possibly headers.

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post #6 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-21-2013, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ricklovin93 View Post
I am interested in the frpp 4.10 differential, I am debating on that being my first major mod. Would it make sense to do the differential before the PI swap?
I would. But that's just me. Gears are probably the first mod I would do knowing what I know now. Although with 4.10s you need a tune, and it's recommended to get the lube mod or whatever it is.

242 rwhp seems really high for a PI swap with pulleys and cat-back. Not saying it's impossible though. Was it on a dyno jet? From Ricks hp thread and the dyno graph thread seems like PI swap with bolt ons can range from 220-240 rwhp. ..... I've gone back and forth on dyno numbers a million times and I think it's best to go by track times and mph instead. Much more concrete

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post #7 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-21-2013, 07:29 PM
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Why stop at 250 rwhp? lol Just throw some Trick Flow heads on it and be done. I laid down my numbers on gas. Don't even have to port the heads to get good flow. It's worth the money, in my opinion.

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post #8 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-21-2013, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Mgino96tbird46 View Post
Just throw some Trick Flow heads on it and be done. [...] Don't even have to port the heads to get good flow.
What can I say, hindsight is 20/20, lol...

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post #9 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-21-2013, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Mgino96tbird46 View Post
Why stop at 250 rwhp? lol Just throw some Trick Flow heads on it and be done. I laid down my numbers on gas. Don't even have to port the heads to get good flow. It's worth the money, in my opinion.
You're using your stock 1996 block with those 38cc TF's? So your compression is over 11:1 unless you're using some custom head gaskets, right?

You have to run only 93 octane gas?

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post #10 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-21-2013, 10:48 PM
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You're using your stock 1996 block with those 38cc TF's? So your compression is over 11:1 unless you're using some custom head gaskets, right?

You have to run only 93 octane gas?
Yes, stock NPI shortblock. Static compression is 11.2:1, calculated. I imagine I could run regular, but it'd run like a dog if I tried, otherwise, I use 93 when I'm running gas.

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post #11 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-21-2013, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Mgino96tbird46 View Post
Yes, stock NPI shortblock. Static compression is 11.2:1, calculated. I imagine I could run regular, but it'd run like a dog if I tried, otherwise, I use 93 when I'm running gas.
I'd be scared of pinging. My buddy had a 3v block with PI heads and was running static 11.4:1, calculated. The car ran like a scalded dog, even put down higher rwhp numbers than his SVO-SC powered TBird!

If he didn't run 93, you could hear it ping like crazy!

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post #12 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-22-2013, 12:20 AM
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That's why I don't use 87. I could use it, but I'd have to take out a significant amount of timing in order to keep it from pinging.

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post #13 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-22-2013, 03:58 AM
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Rob is talking about my 95. Full PI with u/d pulleys, c&l upper and jerry tune. 242rwhp and 301rwtq. Mark tq converter 3.73's [email protected]

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post #14 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-22-2013, 07:18 AM
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There is no reason a pi swap shouldant make 240 plus, heck stock auto gt that wet pi motors made 220 plus rwhp, not to mention Ricky's car had over 130 miles

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post #15 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-22-2013, 07:37 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgino96tbird46 View Post
Why stop at 250 rwhp? lol Just throw some Trick Flow heads on it and be done. I laid down my numbers on gas. Don't even have to port the heads to get good flow. It's worth the money, in my opinion.
250 seems like a good number my budget can afford for right now, the plan for this car is to be an autocross car. My main focus will be on the suspension, but more power is always good.

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post #16 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-22-2013, 07:59 AM
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Gonna need more than just a PI swap to get there. Even with all the main bolt ons I think you'll be just under. Bigger cams maybe even ported heads. 1MTNCAT got it with just PI heads (not ported) mild cams and a bullitt intake but not everyone will get that. Might want to look into E85 too..
Not quite. You are correct in I got it with the above mentioned mods with PI CAMS, Not aftermarket cams. Best ET NA 13.2 @ 103+ MPH. On Jerry's tune.

I never had the car dynoed with with the Bullett Stage 1 cams. Best ET NA 12.9 @ 105+MPH, tweaking the old tune at the track.

My take on it is like Roberts, he can get really close to those numbers. With auto cross, I'd think torque and or gear would be his friend.

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post #17 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-22-2013, 09:49 AM
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Geez I wonder what it would have put down with the cams?

See I can see 220-230 rwhp with all the bolt ons on an MN12 I've seen stock PI mustangs with 5spds put down 220-230rwhp that equates to about 260ish hp at the crank. But for an MN12 with a PI swap, catback and pulleys put down 244 rwhp means he's making 298 hp at the crank with an 18% drivetrain loss. Seems a tad high for those mods.

I've seen crazier things though. Like when Nick M put stage 2 NPI cams and PI intake on a 97 bolt on 5spd mustang come out with 270rwhp

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post #18 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-22-2013, 06:07 PM
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I thought our cars were more like 14-15% drive train loss. IIRC someone laid down 178 on a completely stock car, which is like 14.9% loss from 205.

So I think it'd be more in the ball park of 287 give or take. Not much less, but with an aggressive tune I'm sure it'd be close.

Hell a early 2000's mustang made 260 at the crank and I'm sure you could squeeze a little more with a tune. Add in compression and you'd be right around the 280 mark.

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post #19 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-22-2013, 06:09 PM
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...although I was hoping it'd be more than that when I picked out all the parts, lol.
Are you sure you have the "RunFast" parameter set to 1 in the tune?

Although I did break the transmission just after that...


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post #20 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-22-2013, 08:42 PM
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Don't tell me I've looked over yet another important scalar...

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post #21 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-22-2013, 10:11 PM
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You've datalogged everything very well; any tuning issues would have been found and trimmed by now.

If there's a performance difference, it's either intake, heads, or exhaust; right?

In my personal experience, a chunk of converter material in the exhaust can cause significant losses, lol.

OTOH, maybe it's just that your tracks' timing is more honest.



You know, a "runfast" add-in file could sell like hotcakes... Hmmm.


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post #22 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-22-2013, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperThunderbirdLX View Post
I thought our cars were more like 14-15% drive train loss. IIRC someone laid down 178 on a completely stock car, which is like 14.9% loss from 205.

So I think it'd be more in the ball park of 287 give or take. Not much less, but with an aggressive tune I'm sure it'd be close.

Hell a early 2000's mustang made 260 at the crank and I'm sure you could squeeze a little more with a tune. Add in compression and you'd be right around the 280 mark.
15%? through an automatic and IRS? Sounds like a very generous dyno to me.

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post #23 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-23-2013, 12:52 AM
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Yeah in my experience I've seen stock manual GTs put out in the 230 range and auto GTs put out in the 220 RWHP range. About 12% for manual and 15 for auto. They both weren't exactly stock but mild exhaust mods and cold air intake. Pretty much stock.


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In my personal experience, a chunk of converter material in the exhaust can cause significant losses, lol.
lol like a clogged cat or more than that?

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post #24 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-23-2013, 04:51 AM
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15%? through an automatic and IRS? Sounds like a very generous dyno to me.
I agree, more like 18-19% with an auto. Much different than a Manual and solid axle set up.

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Nitrous 11.75 @ 114 MPH

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post #25 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-23-2013, 06:41 AM
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I'm one of the 14-15% club.

Many posts on here from years past mention a "formula" provided by Jerry which calculates the driveline losses specifically for our chassis. A-train was one of the few Jerry gave the formula to, and with the formula he requested it not be made public or passed to anyone else. However, if you look up all the RWHP figures plugged into this formula and compare them to the calculated BHP results, it always comes out to 14-15% more than the RWHP figure.

http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=20367

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post #26 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-23-2013, 08:42 AM
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I recently took a 1998 4.6L NPI powered Mustang to the Dyno. The stock setup put down 203rwhp and 250rwtq through a 4R70W.
The following weekend I installed an offroad X-pipe and did a intake swap (SVO supercharger). I took it back to the Dyno and put down 284rwhp and 325rwtq.

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post #27 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-23-2013, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
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I recently took a 1998 4.6L NPI powered Mustang to the Dyno. The stock setup put down 203rwhp and 250rwtq through a 4R70W.
The following weekend I installed an offroad X-pipe and did a intake swap (SVO supercharger). I took it back to the Dyno and put down 284rwhp and 325rwtq.

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post #28 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-23-2013, 10:34 AM
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X2 Nice .

2017 Mustang GT 5.0L 2nd gen, cold air box,tune,6 speed auto,RGR 3.31, Magnaflow Tru X-pipe ,GT350RStrips
Gray Mustang Registry # 8582


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post #29 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-23-2013, 10:39 AM
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Nice find Brandon.

Look at post number 24 by racecougar though. If the formula is correct and 14-15% is an accurate assumption then that means the factory horsepower rating is way wrong. And lower than we thought.. And then for mustangs they have to be even lower drivetrain losses like 9-10%? and the 220 RWHP through an auto is around 242 at the crank.... I guess it doesn't matter though it's not like our boats are any slower because Ford overrated the numbers..

-Patrick
[email protected] on used street tires
See profile for full list of mods

Pics here.. http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=129479

Last edited by Tbird1997; 11-23-2013 at 02:20 PM.
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post #30 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-23-2013, 01:10 PM
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I'll let TM's dyno speak for itself. 204k miles on the clock, and he still pulled 176 HP stock on a Dynojet. That's .85853659 of the stock 205 HP. Thanks TM for the dyno

http://forums.tccoa.com/showpost.php...15&postcount=1

-Daniel

My driving is a constant struggle between wanting good gas mileage and driving like I'm Mario Andretti.

http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=134659&page=4

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