4.6l SOHC vs. DOHC - TCCoA Forums
 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 09:36 AM Thread Starter
Is something burning?..
 
JLangton2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Wildwood, Texas
Age: 22
Posts: 712
Garage
4.6l SOHC vs. DOHC

I've seen a bunch of the DOHC(which I believe is double overheard camshaft) 4.6 V8s, I've got the 05' explorer 4.6l SOHC, and I'm wondering what the difference between the two is, whether or not it makes more power, I'm not concerned with that. I really just would like to know what the actual difference is.

Anyone got any schoolin' for the newb'?
Thanks!

-Jonathan
The DD:ECOBLEWST:2016 Mustang Ecoboost [email protected]
1995 Thunderbird LX
The "High Mileage Thrasher" 1997 JL 4.6 bird!



generated by sloganizer.net
JLangton2 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 10:06 AM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: carthage
Age: 37
Posts: 2,435
Send a message via AIM to RobertP
It's a 4 valve head vs your 2v head, yes it makes more power, but the 4v has no low end

www.robstireandauto.com for all your car needs and parts
95 bird corn powered 735rwhp and 580 tq
86 bird vortech s trim
10.75 @128.38
95 bird - Vortech t trim
9.98 worlds fastest IRS 4.6 thunderbird
1/8 [email protected]
10.11 @ 139.19 best mph
1.47 best 60ft if I can get a full pass with this 60ftt
All made possible with Braincoating's ported manifolds
RobertP is offline  
post #3 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 10:10 AM
WOT Junkie and avid corn burner
 
Mgino96tbird46's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Age: 29
Posts: 3,734
The 4V is also a little more complicated and expensive to modify.

Michael M. ASE P2 Automobile Parts Specialist.

1996 Thunderbird LX. Gone, but not forgotten Oct 1995-March 24 2016 Trick Flow headded, E85 guzzling beast.

1985 Mustang GT. modified stock Holley 4180C, Weiand Street Warrior intake manifold, equal length headers, true dual exhaust, 5 speed, 3.55:1 8.8'' rear end, Ford Racing 10.5" clutch.

1998 Mustang GT premium. Trans Go shift kit, Bassani catted x-pipe, PI heads, cams, intake swap, Accufab elbow, SCT Xcal 4 tune, Eibach Pro-kit, Maximum Motorsports Caster/camber plates, fat tires. Banging audio system.
Mgino96tbird46 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
Is something burning?..
 
JLangton2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Wildwood, Texas
Age: 22
Posts: 712
Garage
No low end? What does that mean? I know the 4V breathes better, but no low end?

-Jonathan
The DD:ECOBLEWST:2016 Mustang Ecoboost [email protected]
1995 Thunderbird LX
The "High Mileage Thrasher" 1997 JL 4.6 bird!



generated by sloganizer.net
JLangton2 is offline  
post #5 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 10:27 AM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
Tbird1997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Age: 27
Posts: 2,134
Doesn't make the torque in the lower rpms like the 2v will. Horsepower too but mainly torque.

4vs sometimes called the torqueless wonder (especially B heads) (mark 8 and 97 cobra motors) Really need rpms and lower rear end gears to tap in to that higher rpm power. Check out Chris's build on here. Don't be fooled by his lower dyno numbers; the thing hauls ass.

-Patrick
[email protected] on used street tires
See profile for full list of mods

Pics here.. http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=129479
Tbird1997 is offline  
post #6 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 10:33 AM Thread Starter
Is something burning?..
 
JLangton2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Wildwood, Texas
Age: 22
Posts: 712
Garage
Oh, so there's pros and cons to each one.
Also, what does "cammed" mean? (I know all of this is in the pages, but this stuff seems to keep the forums alive xD)

Also, which is your personal preference between the SOHC and the DOHC?

-Jonathan
The DD:ECOBLEWST:2016 Mustang Ecoboost [email protected]
1995 Thunderbird LX
The "High Mileage Thrasher" 1997 JL 4.6 bird!



generated by sloganizer.net

Last edited by JLangton2; 01-13-2014 at 10:41 AM.
JLangton2 is offline  
post #7 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 10:44 AM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
Tbird1997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Age: 27
Posts: 2,134
Cammed just means there's a bigger aftermarket camshaft installed

-Patrick
[email protected] on used street tires
See profile for full list of mods

Pics here.. http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=129479
Tbird1997 is offline  
post #8 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 10:45 AM Thread Starter
Is something burning?..
 
JLangton2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Wildwood, Texas
Age: 22
Posts: 712
Garage
So the bigger the better as far as camshaft?

-Jonathan
The DD:ECOBLEWST:2016 Mustang Ecoboost [email protected]
1995 Thunderbird LX
The "High Mileage Thrasher" 1997 JL 4.6 bird!



generated by sloganizer.net
JLangton2 is offline  
post #9 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 10:48 AM
2nd Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Tacoma Wa
Posts: 60
I'm a newb too but I'll take a swing here, cammed means upgraded camshafts. After market camshafts have more aggressive profiles on the intake and exhaust lobes, they hold the lifters open a little higher and for a longer duration of time to allow more air and fuel into the combustion chamber, likewise on the exhaust stroke.
AlanE is offline  
post #10 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 10:57 AM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
Tbird1997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Age: 27
Posts: 2,134
Bigger is definitely not always better. Each motor needs a certain amount of lift and duration to maximize the power in the operable rpm. If you throw a stage 3 cam in a stock 2v you will have terrible low end power and it will fall on it's face. It probably won't make any more power up high either because a general stage 3 cam operates best in the 5 to 7k rpm range. GM would be best to explain this.

-Patrick
[email protected] on used street tires
See profile for full list of mods

Pics here.. http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=129479

Last edited by Tbird1997; 01-13-2014 at 07:36 PM.
Tbird1997 is offline  
post #11 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 11:06 AM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tinton Falls, NJ
Age: 36
Posts: 7,418
Garage
Send a message via AIM to MadMikeyL
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLangton2 View Post
So the bigger the better as far as camshaft?
Absolutely not! The cam needs to be matched to the rest of the engine package. A bigger cam will move the powerband up in the rpm range at the expense of low end torque, but if you don't have the heads, intake, or bottom end to support those higher rpms, then you will lose low-end without gaining top-end, and you can easily make your car slower.

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
-98 Mark VIII LSC, Procharger P600b, TR3650 swap and 3.73s.
-90 SC Automatic rustbucket winter beater
-97 Tbird Sport 4.6 Nice weather daily driver
-"Your buddy Mike is INSANE!" -ClintD's dad
MadMikeyL is offline  
post #12 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 11:48 AM Thread Starter
Is something burning?..
 
JLangton2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Wildwood, Texas
Age: 22
Posts: 712
Garage
Well, I guess I need an aftermarket cam, later, then.


where IS GM at? XD

-Jonathan
The DD:ECOBLEWST:2016 Mustang Ecoboost [email protected]
1995 Thunderbird LX
The "High Mileage Thrasher" 1997 JL 4.6 bird!



generated by sloganizer.net
JLangton2 is offline  
post #13 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 12:00 PM
Moderator & Teksid Whore
Super Moderator
 
guitar maestro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Laredo, Texas
Age: 39
Posts: 11,961
Send a message via MSN to guitar maestro Send a message via Yahoo to guitar maestro
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLangton2 View Post
No low end? What does that mean? I know the 4V breathes better, but no low end?
"Low end" meaning low-rpm torque (which is what gets the car moving).

The answer lies in knowing the precise relationship between rpms and torque production. At high RPMs, high air flow capabilites need to be emphasized, at low RPMs, airflow necessities aren't all that great because the engine isn't spinning fast enough cause air "starvation" (for lack of a better word), which is why the ultimate flow capability of the head does not come into question. So you may wonder, if the engine can breath at low RPMs, why would low end suffer? Two words: air velocity. Air velocity needs to be high even though the actual air-mass is small, in order to get the fuel droplets evenly distributed within the air mass. Not an easy feat when you have large intake ports that are more geared towards high RPM HP. To get velocity and or turbulence high enough at low RPMs usually necessitates implementing measures that are counterproductive to making high RPM HP. Hence the need for IMRCs on DOHC engines.
guitar maestro is offline  
post #14 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 02:00 PM Thread Starter
Is something burning?..
 
JLangton2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Wildwood, Texas
Age: 22
Posts: 712
Garage
Im gonna need to read that a couple times, but I screenshotted it, so I'll have it.
I kind of understand that, let me re-read it again xD,
So does a supercharger deal with the camshaft or the intake? I'm really hungry for knowledge about all this. I don't mean to bother, lol.

-Jonathan
The DD:ECOBLEWST:2016 Mustang Ecoboost [email protected]
1995 Thunderbird LX
The "High Mileage Thrasher" 1997 JL 4.6 bird!



generated by sloganizer.net

Last edited by JLangton2; 01-13-2014 at 02:11 PM.
JLangton2 is offline  
post #15 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 02:34 PM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
Tbird1997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Age: 27
Posts: 2,134
Supercharger goes on the intake manifold. Well the roots style supercharger does (SVO, eaton, kenne bell). The centrifugal style shoots air into the air intake tube (vortech). Doesn't directy effect the cams, but for a blower set up different cams should be used to maximize power opposed to a n/a set up

-Patrick
[email protected] on used street tires
See profile for full list of mods

Pics here.. http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=129479
Tbird1997 is offline  
post #16 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 03:00 PM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
theterminator93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: North Ridgeville, Ohio
Age: 31
Posts: 9,036
Garage
There is naturally aspirated - the up and down motion of the pistons and different cycles of the four stroke internal combustion engine provide the suction needed to draw air into the engine for each combustion cycle.

And there is forced induction - there is a 'blower' (a turbocharger or a supercharger) spun by the engine which compresses incoming air and 'forces' it into the engine under high pressure. You don't get something for nothing though - a blower increases power output because it increases the amount of air in the cylinders during each combustion cycle, but they are an enormous parasitic drag source on the engine. If you start with a beefed up 4.6 making, say, 300 RWHP n/a (not a small feat btw) and put a supercharger on it, you might expect to make about 50% more power than that - 450 RWHP.

Something else to add is that a typical supercharger setup on a such an engine might need 100 HP to turn, so that engine would need to make some 600+ HP at the crank (if it was possible to make 450 RWHP on an N/A engine it would likely need to make only about 525 BHP, or crankshaft horsepower) to lay down those numbers. Thus the parastic drive goes up immensely whenever you add forced induction; if an engine is making 350 HP at the crankshaft without a supercharger it would put down about 300 HP at the wheels. With a supercharger to get that same 350 HP at the crank, you might see 250 HP at the wheels. Different types of forced induction have different levels of parasitic drag (centrifugal, roots, etc. superchargers and turbochargers) and different benefits/applications. Just saying so that you're armed with the info...

-Brandon
97 Laser Red Thunderbird LX 161k, Stage 2 4.6L 2v N/A | 300 BHP (255 RWHP, 290 RWTQ) | 13.95 @ 97.58 | Build details | Pics at the Lorain Assembly plant
98 Black Mark VIII 155k, stock daily driver
07 Redfire Fusion V6 SEL 178k, for the wife
Gone but not forgotten: 96 Mark VIII, 94 Cougar XR7, 93 Mark VIII

TCCoA's resident pilot since 2014
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the world with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return. -Leonardo da Vinci

Last edited by theterminator93; 01-13-2014 at 04:58 PM.
theterminator93 is offline  
post #17 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 04:46 PM
Road warrior extrodinaire

Super Moderator
 
Trunk Monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Home Sweet Home: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 11,744
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by theterminator93 View Post
There is naturally aspirated - the up and down motion of the pistons and different cycles of the four stroke internal combustion engine provide the suction needed to draw air into the engine for each combustion cycle.

And there is forced induction - there is a 'blower' (a turbocharger or a supercharger) spun by the engine which compresses incoming air and 'forces' it into the engine under high pressure. You don't get something for nothing though - a blower increases power output because it increases the amount of air in the cylinders during each combustion cycle, but they are an enormous parasitic drag source on the engine. A typical supercharger on a 500 HP engine might be eating up 100 HP to turn.
The trade off is worth it.

And then there's those pansies who add oxygen to the combustion cycle with a little extra gas knows as Nitrogen Oxide.

Mods? Yea, I got mods ...
Air silencer delete, warp drive, dilithium crystals, flux capacitor, Slingshot Rubber band power adder, Moonshine & Gas, Leaf Blower Supercharger, Hamster Wheel & Hamster, Energizer Bunny generating 1.21 gigawatts, Mr. Fusion Home Energy Reactor, hover conversion and a sextant celestial navigation system (The original GPS)
Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto
Trunk Monkey is offline  
post #18 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 05:18 PM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
dDUBb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Nor-Cal
Age: 38
Posts: 4,103
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLangton2 View Post

Also, which is your personal preference between the SOHC and the DOHC?
The DOHC sounds better and makes more power, stock vs. stock.

They both have no low end. A supercharger makes that problem disappear. I had a PI SOHC in my car for a few weeks before I got rid of it and went DOHC. I still have a SVO supercharger for the SOHC, but no car to put it in. Weird. The DOHC just looks cooler with the Cobra manifold, i really could care less about how much power it makes - my Chevys are the fast cars.
dDUBb is offline  
post #19 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 05:18 PM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
Tbird1997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Age: 27
Posts: 2,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCTbird1994 View Post
i really could care less about how much power it makes - my Chevys are the fast cars.
Hey now, get out of here with that Chevy stuff!


Ok so assume I'm making 250-260hp at the crank with my mods. Does that mean I need 21# injectors and I'm starving my engine of fuel with the stock 19#?

-Patrick
[email protected] on used street tires
See profile for full list of mods

Pics here.. http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=129479
Tbird1997 is offline  
post #20 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 05:20 PM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
theterminator93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: North Ridgeville, Ohio
Age: 31
Posts: 9,036
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk Monkey View Post
The trade off is worth it.
Okay, I'll add a little more info to the post to show that.

More info to bleed out of your ears which might come in useful someday, relating to how to choose how large your fuel injectors need to be:

Engines need a certain amount of fuel to generate the power they do. This number is called BSFC, short for brake specific fuel consumption. Basically it means how much fuel you need to create one brake (crankshaft) horsepower.

Typical n/a engines have a BSFC of about .45-.50. This means for every horsepower the engine produces, it needs half a pound of fuel per hour. A stock 4.6L is rated at 205 HP from the factory; assuming a BSFC of .5, that would mean 102.5 pounds of fuel per hour would be required to sustain maximum output. If you take the number of cylinders (8) you can determine the maximum fuel requirements of each cylinder - and thus the size of the fuel injector you need. 102.5 pounds of fuel per hour over eight cylinders works out to about 12.8 pounds of fuel per cylinder. However - that would be the fuel flow of the injectors if they were spraying constantly, or a duty cycle of 100%. Typically not advised for a variety of reasons - so the accepted rule of thumb is to keep the injector duty cycle under 80%. So if we factor in this 'safety margin', we would have an injector at 80% duty cycle delivering 12.8 pounds per hour... 12.8/.8 = 16 pounds per hour. A stock 94-98 4.6L 2v has 19# injectors from the factory. Why? Because there's no such thing as a 16# injector. The next step up is 19#/hr.

The PI 2v motors came with 21# injectors. Why? Their power output went up from 205 BHP to ~250-260 BHP (depending on the car). That translates to a needed 16.25#/hr flow per cylinder at 80% duty cycle, or 20.3#/hr at 100% duty cycle. No such thing as a 20.3#/hr injector, so they used 21#/hr injectors.

The 4V 4.6 used in the Mark VIII produced 280-285 HP. That works out to 17.8#/hr at 80% duty cycle, or 22.25#/hr at 100% duty cycle... rounded up to the nearest injector size of 24#/hr.

One last N/A example... my own car. Last winter I went through a top end build which I hoped would get me in the 320-330 BHP range (which didn't happen ), so I spec'd out my injector based on those needs: 330 BHP = 20.6#/hr @ 80% = [email protected] 100%, or a 30# injector. Mine actually flow 28.4#/hr, but we won't go into details on why...

For forced induction engines, the BSFC goes up because more fuel is required per unit of horsepower. This has to do with extra fuel being used to help keep the cylinders and combustion temperatures down because as air is compressed, it heats up. A typical forced induction engine might have a BSFC of .6. Keep in mind that a lot of this extra needed fuel comes from the extra power needed to turn the power adder (e.g. 700 RWHP on a 900 BHP F/I car).

Now take the 03-04 Cobras for example. Because they're forced induction, we need to use a .6 BSFC. 390 HP at .6 BSFC is 29.25#/hr at 80% injector duty cycle, or 36.6#/hr at 100%. Hence why they use 39# injectors on those engines.

Like I said, the info might come in handy someday when you need to find out how big your injectors need to be for a particular application...
burkowski82114 likes this.

-Brandon
97 Laser Red Thunderbird LX 161k, Stage 2 4.6L 2v N/A | 300 BHP (255 RWHP, 290 RWTQ) | 13.95 @ 97.58 | Build details | Pics at the Lorain Assembly plant
98 Black Mark VIII 155k, stock daily driver
07 Redfire Fusion V6 SEL 178k, for the wife
Gone but not forgotten: 96 Mark VIII, 94 Cougar XR7, 93 Mark VIII

TCCoA's resident pilot since 2014
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the world with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return. -Leonardo da Vinci

Last edited by theterminator93; 01-13-2014 at 07:35 PM. Reason: found it, didn't know it was you, and deleted it... then re-added it. :P
theterminator93 is offline  
post #21 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 05:25 PM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
theterminator93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: North Ridgeville, Ohio
Age: 31
Posts: 9,036
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbird1997 View Post
Ok so assume I'm making 250-260hp at the crank with my mods. Does that mean I need 21# injectors and I'm starving my engine of fuel with the stock 19#?
Yes and no. With an 80% max. duty cycle you can only supply enough fuel for about 243 HP at the crank.

Keep in mind though that the .5 BSFC is just a ballpark estimate, and the 80% duty cycle can be exceeded. Your BSFC might be a little lower, say .45, in which case your fuel needs are a tad over 18#/hr. On the other hand if your actual BSFC is indeed .5, your injector duty cycles are probably closer to 85-86%. Doable? Yes. Enough margin for safety? Probably not. Always calculate on the high side of the estimate. Better to have the capacity to squirt in more fuel than you really need... than to need more fuel than you have the capacity to deliver.

Sorry my post went under yours - I made so many edits to my previous post I decided to delete the original and re-post it.

-Brandon
97 Laser Red Thunderbird LX 161k, Stage 2 4.6L 2v N/A | 300 BHP (255 RWHP, 290 RWTQ) | 13.95 @ 97.58 | Build details | Pics at the Lorain Assembly plant
98 Black Mark VIII 155k, stock daily driver
07 Redfire Fusion V6 SEL 178k, for the wife
Gone but not forgotten: 96 Mark VIII, 94 Cougar XR7, 93 Mark VIII

TCCoA's resident pilot since 2014
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the world with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return. -Leonardo da Vinci

Last edited by theterminator93; 01-13-2014 at 05:53 PM.
theterminator93 is offline  
post #22 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 05:28 PM
WOT Junkie and avid corn burner
 
Mgino96tbird46's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Age: 29
Posts: 3,734
Now find the BSFC for an engine using E85.

Michael M. ASE P2 Automobile Parts Specialist.

1996 Thunderbird LX. Gone, but not forgotten Oct 1995-March 24 2016 Trick Flow headded, E85 guzzling beast.

1985 Mustang GT. modified stock Holley 4180C, Weiand Street Warrior intake manifold, equal length headers, true dual exhaust, 5 speed, 3.55:1 8.8'' rear end, Ford Racing 10.5" clutch.

1998 Mustang GT premium. Trans Go shift kit, Bassani catted x-pipe, PI heads, cams, intake swap, Accufab elbow, SCT Xcal 4 tune, Eibach Pro-kit, Maximum Motorsports Caster/camber plates, fat tires. Banging audio system.
Mgino96tbird46 is offline  
post #23 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 05:48 PM
Humble MN12 Genius
Super Moderator
 
XR7-4.6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Roselle IL
Posts: 16,533
Garage
Send a message via Yahoo to XR7-4.6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk Monkey View Post
The trade off is worth it.

And then there's those pansies who add oxygen to the combustion cycle with a little extra gas knows as Nitrogen Oxide.
I didn't know there was such a wedge dividing the sissy power adders cult

-Matt
XR7-4.6 is offline  
post #24 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 05:51 PM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
theterminator93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: North Ridgeville, Ohio
Age: 31
Posts: 9,036
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgino96tbird46 View Post
Now find the BSFC for an engine using E85.
N/A .65-.70
F/I .85-.90

-Brandon
97 Laser Red Thunderbird LX 161k, Stage 2 4.6L 2v N/A | 300 BHP (255 RWHP, 290 RWTQ) | 13.95 @ 97.58 | Build details | Pics at the Lorain Assembly plant
98 Black Mark VIII 155k, stock daily driver
07 Redfire Fusion V6 SEL 178k, for the wife
Gone but not forgotten: 96 Mark VIII, 94 Cougar XR7, 93 Mark VIII

TCCoA's resident pilot since 2014
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the world with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return. -Leonardo da Vinci
theterminator93 is offline  
post #25 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 06:22 PM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
dDUBb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Nor-Cal
Age: 38
Posts: 4,103
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbird1997 View Post
Hey now, get out of here with that Chevy stuff!
Dude, I bought my first Tbird when you were 4 years old. Get out of here with your imaginary horsepower estimates that dont mean anything, assuming that 99% of the time you are driving you are nowhere near maxing out your injectors duty cycle but yes you could theoretically go above the 80% safety factor on the rare occasion you take your little anemic 281 CID to the track.
dDUBb is offline  
post #26 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 06:28 PM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
theterminator93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: North Ridgeville, Ohio
Age: 31
Posts: 9,036
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCTbird1994 View Post
Dude, I bought my first Tbird when you were 4 years old. Get out of here with your imaginary horsepower estimates that dont mean anything, assuming that 99% of the time you are driving you are nowhere near maxing out your injectors duty cycle but yes you could theoretically go above the 80% safety factor on the rare occasion you take your little anemic 281 CID to the track.
I think you're reading hostility in his statement that isn't there. No need to jump down his throat or be nasty.

It's the internet. Try to remember there's a human being on the other end of your posts.

-Brandon
97 Laser Red Thunderbird LX 161k, Stage 2 4.6L 2v N/A | 300 BHP (255 RWHP, 290 RWTQ) | 13.95 @ 97.58 | Build details | Pics at the Lorain Assembly plant
98 Black Mark VIII 155k, stock daily driver
07 Redfire Fusion V6 SEL 178k, for the wife
Gone but not forgotten: 96 Mark VIII, 94 Cougar XR7, 93 Mark VIII

TCCoA's resident pilot since 2014
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the world with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return. -Leonardo da Vinci
theterminator93 is offline  
post #27 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 07:02 PM
Moderator & Teksid Whore
Super Moderator
 
guitar maestro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Laredo, Texas
Age: 39
Posts: 11,961
Send a message via MSN to guitar maestro Send a message via Yahoo to guitar maestro
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCTbird1994 View Post
imaginary horsepower estimates
when I had PI cams/PI intake/tuned PCM/stock exhaust my car made around 210 or so. Add in ~40hp that is lost in the drivetrain, and his 250BHP is not so imaginary.
guitar maestro is offline  
post #28 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 07:03 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

Moderator
 
Grog6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Harriman, TN
Age: 56
Posts: 9,970
Garage
Here are the cars that got 2V 4.6l engines:

Vehicles equipped with the 16-valve SOHC 4.6 L include the following:

1991–1993 Lincoln Town Car, 190 hp (142 kW) and 270 lbft (366 Nm)
1992–1997 Ford Crown Victoria/Mercury Grand Marquis, 210 hp (157 kW) and 270 lbft (366 Nm) with dual exhaust option
1998–2000 Ford Crown Victoria/Mercury Grand Marquis, 215 hp (160 kW) and 285 lbft (386 Nm) with dual exhaust option
2001–2002 Ford Crown Victoria/Mercury Grand Marquis, 235 hp (175 kW) and 275 lbft (373 Nm) with dual exhaust option
2003–2012 Ford Crown Victoria/Mercury Grand Marquis, 239 hp (178 kW) and 282 lbft (382 Nm) with dual exhaust option
2004–2011 Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptor, 250 hp (186 kW) and 297 lbft (403 Nm)
1994–1997 Lincoln Town Car, 210 hp (157 kW)
1994–1995 Ford Thunderbird, 205 hp (153 kW) and 265 lbft (359 Nm)
1996–1997 Ford Thunderbird, 205 hp (153 kW) and 280 lbft (380 Nm)
1994–1995 Mercury Cougar, 205 hp (153 kW) and 265 lbft (359 Nm)
1996–1997 Mercury Cougar, 205 hp (153 kW) and 280 lbft (380 Nm)
1997–2010 Ford F-Series, 248 hp (185 kW) and 294 lbft (399 Nm) ratings for 2007 and later model year F-Series
1997–2014 Ford E-Series, 225 hp (168 kW) and 286 lbft (388 Nm) ratings for 2001 and later model year E-Series
1997–1998 Ford Expedition, 215 hp (160 kW) and 290 lbft (393 Nm)
1999–2004 Ford Expedition, 232 hp (173 kW) and 291 lbft (395 Nm)
1998–2000 Lincoln Town Car, 205 hp (153 kW)
2001–2002 Lincoln Town Car, 235 hp (175 kW)
2003–2011 Lincoln Town Car, 239 hp (178 kW) and 287 lbft (389 Nm)
2002–2005 Ford Explorer, 239 hp (178 kW) and 282 lbft (382 Nm)
1996–1997 Ford Mustang, 215 hp (160 kW) and 285 lbft (386 Nm)
1998 Ford Mustang, 225 hp (168 kW) and 290 lbft (393 Nm)
1999–2004 Ford Mustang, 260 hp (194 kW) and 302 lbft (409 Nm)
2003–2005 Rover 75, 260 hp (194 kW) and 302 lbft (409 Nm)
2003–2005 MG ZT, 260 hp (194 kW) and 302 lbft (409 Nm)
2011–2014 MV-1, 248 hp (185 kW) and 295 lbft (400 Nm) (Replaced by 3.7 V6)


Here are the 4V engines:

Vehicles equipped with the 32-valve DOHC 4.6 L include the following:

1993–1998 Lincoln Mark VIII, 280 hp (209 kW) and 285 lbft (386 Nm)
1995–1998 Lincoln Continental, 260 hp (194 kW) and 265 lbft (359 Nm)
1995–1998 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC, 290 hp (216 kW) and 295 lbft (400 Nm)
1996–1998 Ford Mustang SVT Cobra, 305 hp (227 kW) and 300 lbft (407 Nm)
1997–1999 Marcos Mantis GT, 320 hp (239 kW) and 317 lbft (430 Nm)
1997–1999 Panoz AIV Roadster, 305 hp (227 kW) and 300 lb-ft (407 N-m)
1999/2001 Ford Mustang SVT Cobra, 320 hp (239 kW) and 317 lbft (430 Nm)
1999–2002 Lincoln Continental, 275 hp (205 kW) and 275 lbft (373 Nm)
2000–2009 Panoz Esperante, 305 hp (227 kW) and 300 lbft (407 Nm) [9]
2000–2001 Qvale Mangusta, 320 hp (239 kW) and 317 lbft (430 Nm)
2003 Ford Mustang Mach 1, 305 hp (227 kW) and 320 lbft (434 Nm)
2003–2004 Ford Mustang SVT Cobra, Iron block, Supercharged, 390 hp (291 kW) and 390 lbft (529 Nm)
2003–2005 Lincoln Aviator, 302 hp (225 kW) and 318 lbft (431 Nm)
2003–2004 Mercury Marauder, 302 hp (225 kW) and 318 lbft (431 Nm)
2003–2005 MG X-Power SV, 320 hp (239 kW) and 317 lbft (430 Nm)
2003–2005 MG ZT 260, 260 hp (194 kW) and 300 lbft (407 Nm)
2003–2005 Rover 75 V8, 260 hp (194 kW) and 300 lbft (407 Nm)
2004 Ford Mustang Mach 1, 310 hp (231 kW) and 335 lbft (454 Nm) [10]

(Stolen from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Modular_engine)

I've been accumulating parts for ~10 years now...


I bought my PI swap engine because it has more HP than our cars:

2003 Lincoln Town Car, 239 hp (178 kW) and 287 lbft (389 Nm)

The Pi swap into my Cougar is getting close...


For a project, I bought a 98 dohc in ~2006, and started rebuilding it.

I now have all three varieties of DOHC heads and intakes.

From everything I've researched, for what I want for my personal DOHC build, I'm going with a Mach 1 setup to try to keep the hp/tq peak low enough to not destroy auto transmissions in daily use.

I have two sets of cams of note; one is an unknown set of Mach 1 race cams, and a set of conti cams that measure 202.

All other DOHC cams are pretty much the same, except for 96-98 Cobra exhaust cams. EDIT: NO, it's the intake cams. Cobra INTAKE cams part numbers are: F6ZE-6A270-AB and F6ZE-6A271-AB

I think the conti cams will do fine for this build; I still need to measure the other ones better.
I don't believe what I wrote down, it has to be wrong.

My advice; the DOHC is a slow rush to OMFG!
The PI will have much more low end, where you will be actually be using it.

Remember: If the cops hear you having fun over 3500 rpms on the street, you're going to jail, lol.

Dedicated Drag cars are a whole different area; I can't say there.

That's the realm of GM's yet-to-be-named-beast; he's shooting for 10k rpms NA!!



EDIT: this is a nice spot, so here are more Cam specs:

Rocker ratio is 1.81 for a 4.6l engine


Non-PI:
Intake .462" lift/201 @.050"
Exhaust .462" lift/208 @.050"
114 intake C/L
113 exhaust C/L

PI:
Intake .507" lift/200 @.050"
Exhaust .534" lift/210 @.050"
114 intake C/L
115 exhaust C/L
The duration and centerlines are so close that I'll say the slight differences seen are production tolerances.

JL


96-98 Cam Specs:
Intake: Primary Lobe 196 duration (at .050)/ 390 lift
Secondary Lobe 206 duration (at .050)/ 390 lift
Exhaust: 196 duration / 390 lift (at .050)

99/01 Cam Specs:
Intake: 194 duration (at .050) / 392 lift
Exhaust: 194 duration (at .050)/ 390 lift

Mach 1, 03/04 Cobra, Aviator, Marauder.
Intake: 184 deg @ .050"/0.394" lift
Exhaust: 196 deg @ .050 / .394" lift

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, Most Outrageous Diversion by MSNBC for this quote

Last edited by Grog6; 01-14-2014 at 06:50 PM.
Grog6 is offline  
post #29 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 07:09 PM
West Virginia Chapter Director /
MA Drag Race Team Coordinator
 
1MTNCAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Hedgesville, WV
Age: 61
Posts: 2,643
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCTbird1994 View Post
Dude, I bought my first Tbird when you were 4 years old. Get out of here with your imaginary horsepower estimates that dont mean anything, assuming that 99% of the time you are driving you are nowhere near maxing out your injectors duty cycle but yes you could theoretically go above the 80% safety factor on the rare occasion you take your little anemic 281 CID to the track.
Wow! I purchased my first MN12 Cougar when you were just a teenager and my first Cougar back before any of you were even thought about. Oh and BTW you are as old as my oldest son!!

Now, your point is???

Common man!!! But I do agree there is a theory behind what is needed to a point.

Far as the Nitrous hits by TM, well he'll get his ROFL!!!!

Steve
1996 Cougar XR7 Special Edition (Street & Strip)
"There's a bad, built NA 4.6L COMING Spring-Summer 2018"

Elite member of the Halfshaft snapping, Auburn eating, Tranny crunching, Piston Melting, Tire lifting, 500+ lb ft Torque Club.

Cougar ET-Stock 4.6 shortblock/Stock PI headswap Bullitt NA 12.94 @ 105+
Nitrous 11.75 @ 114 MPH

2008 Ford Powerstroke 6.4 TT F250 4X4 Supercrew: 12.82 @ 105 MPH

"IN MEMORY OF MY FRIENDS JOEL BENDER 1979-2006", JOHNNY LANGTON 1975-2011, and MICHAEL VIVERETTE 1953-2013"
1MTNCAT is offline  
post #30 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 07:17 PM
Humble MN12 Genius
Super Moderator
 
XR7-4.6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Roselle IL
Posts: 16,533
Garage
Send a message via Yahoo to XR7-4.6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
All other DOHC cams are pretty much the same, except for 96-98 Cobra exhaust cams.
Exhaust cams are all the same, the intake cams are what's desirable. 204* Duration on them.

-Matt
XR7-4.6 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the TCCoA Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome