Are 4.6 and 3.8 engines in Birds interference engines? - TCCoA Forums
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-02-2014, 08:42 AM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
NEURO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 92
Are 4.6 and 3.8 engines in Birds interference engines?

Hi all,

A friend of mine is buying a 97 Cougar from his mechanic. Car has only 50K miles. Friends isn't sure if it's the 4.6 or 3.8 engine yet. His mechanic says that the timing chain broke and the valves are bent, so he has to repair it before selling it to him. His mechanic says there's also a rough idle he has to fix.

We're wondering how all this could happen on a 50K mile car, so I told him I'd do some checking. I'm leery about all this, but my friends wants the car.

QUESTIONS: Are the 4.6 and/or 3.8 engines interference engines, where the pistons will collide with the valves if the chain breaks or slips? And can the engine even run (the rough idle) if the chain has slipped or broke?

Thanks for any feedback & info.

NEURO (James)
________________________

1997 Thunderbird LX Sport
http://www.snellingwebdev.com
NEURO is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-02-2014, 09:57 AM
Kind of slapped together
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Bossier City, LA
Age: 63
Posts: 4,844
Yes on both, although a one-tooth-jumped timing chain may not cause problems on the 3.8.

On the 4.6, since it's overhead cam, it's possible the tensioner failed due to age and lack of lube (if it's only got 50K miles, it's not been run that much, so it's not been kept lubricated!), so I'd lay odds on it being a 4.6 with that description.

Good news! If the mechanic has to do that work anyway, and it's a 4.6, it's prime for a PI head/intake upgrade!

RwP
RalphP is online now  
post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-02-2014, 10:04 AM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
NEURO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 92
Thanks Ralph...I wasn't aware both engines were designed that way. On the point about it possibly not being lubricated well, now I'm wondering if the previous owner (an older lady) didn't do oil changes or other services, causing the chain lube problem. And if so, could this engine be a mess if my friend buys it.

NEURO (James)
________________________

1997 Thunderbird LX Sport
http://www.snellingwebdev.com
NEURO is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-02-2014, 10:35 AM
Road warrior extrodinaire

Super Moderator
 
Trunk Monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: This week: Dominican Republic
Posts: 11,756
Garage
Run don't walk away from this car unless he's getting it for dirt cheap!

By dirt cheap I mean under a grand and even then I'd question the reliability of any repair work the mechanic might have done. Short of replacing the heads with PI heads, personally, I wouldn't want it.

How much is he paying for this car?

Mods? Yea, I got mods ...
Air silencer delete, warp drive, dilithium crystals, flux capacitor, Slingshot Rubber band power adder, Moonshine & Gas, Leaf Blower Supercharger, Hamster Wheel & Hamster, Energizer Bunny generating 1.21 gigawatts, Mr. FusionŽ Home Energy Reactor, hover conversion and a sextant celestial navigation system (The original GPS)
Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto
Trunk Monkey is offline  
post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-02-2014, 10:43 AM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
NEURO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 92
Hi Trunk...he doesn't know the price yet because the mechanic wants to repair the engine first before pricing it.

Any feedback on what you'd suspect is wrong with the car?

NEURO (James)
________________________

1997 Thunderbird LX Sport
http://www.snellingwebdev.com
NEURO is offline  
post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-02-2014, 10:44 AM
Seasoned PostWhore

Super Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tinton Falls, NJ
Age: 36
Posts: 7,430
Garage
Send a message via AIM to MadMikeyL
I wouldn't stop at just a head swap. If it really did break a timing chain or jump time after only 50k miles, who knows how neglected it was, and what the rest of the bottom end looks like. I would say only buy the car if it is in absolutely perfect shape other than the motor, and if it is $1000 or less, and if you do buy it, swap a complete low-mile PI motor into it.

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
-98 Mark VIII LSC, Procharger P600b, TR3650 swap and 3.73s.
-90 SC Automatic rustbucket winter beater
-97 Tbird Sport 4.6 Nice weather daily driver
-"Your buddy Mike is INSANE!" -ClintD's dad
MadMikeyL is offline  
post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-02-2014, 11:14 AM
Road warrior extrodinaire

Super Moderator
 
Trunk Monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: This week: Dominican Republic
Posts: 11,756
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEURO View Post
Hi Trunk...he doesn't know the price yet because the mechanic wants to repair the engine first before pricing it.

Any feedback on what you'd suspect is wrong with the car?
I have no idea what's wrong with it.

I'd go with what MadMikey said there - just swap the whole engine for a PI motor.

There's a well written how-to article here at TCCoA. Here's the link:

http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=94152

Mods? Yea, I got mods ...
Air silencer delete, warp drive, dilithium crystals, flux capacitor, Slingshot Rubber band power adder, Moonshine & Gas, Leaf Blower Supercharger, Hamster Wheel & Hamster, Energizer Bunny generating 1.21 gigawatts, Mr. FusionŽ Home Energy Reactor, hover conversion and a sextant celestial navigation system (The original GPS)
Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto
Trunk Monkey is offline  
post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-02-2014, 11:39 AM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
NEURO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
I wouldn't stop at just a head swap. If it really did break a timing chain or jump time after only 50k miles, who knows how neglected it was, and what the rest of the bottom end looks like. I would say only buy the car if it is in absolutely perfect shape other than the motor, and if it is $1000 or less, and if you do buy it, swap a complete low-mile PI motor into it.
I'm not sure he'd want to do the PI upgrade due to cost. And, if this engine suffered a failure this early, due to theoretical poor maintenance, there's probably more issues that are waiting to jump out. It takes real effort to bust these 4.6s, so I'm curious to know what happened.

It's going to be a car for his college going son, so putting too much money into it, plus the purchase cost, might not work for him. These cars are bulletproof though...so it might pay off in the long term as reliable transportation once it's squared away.

NEURO (James)
________________________

1997 Thunderbird LX Sport
http://www.snellingwebdev.com
NEURO is offline  
post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-02-2014, 11:58 AM
Kind of slapped together
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Bossier City, LA
Age: 63
Posts: 4,844
Just be aware that due to age (hey, it IS 16 years old!), all the suspension needs to be gone through.

This is mostly a DIY level job, though, especially if you don't mind the Monroe ride (Monroe, Raybestos, and SACHS all list "strut kits" for the front, with the shock and a new spring premounted with all new mounts).

RwP
RalphP is online now  
post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-02-2014, 12:08 PM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
NEURO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 92
Hmm...also, if it's the 4.6...it's possible it still has the original intake manifold without the aluminum coolant crossover.

Let's shudder together at this fond memory:


NEURO (James)
________________________

1997 Thunderbird LX Sport
http://www.snellingwebdev.com
NEURO is offline  
post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-02-2014, 02:43 PM
Humble MN12 Genius
Super Moderator
 
XR7-4.6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Roselle IL
Posts: 16,596
Garage
Send a message via Yahoo to XR7-4.6
I'd take the all plastic OEM POS over the Dorman POS below it

-Matt
XR7-4.6 is offline  
post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-02-2014, 02:53 PM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
NetKeym's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 5,862
Quote:
Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
I'd take the all plastic OEM POS over the Dorman POS below it
I have an all plastic PI intake off a 2001 Crown Vic - from what I understand, these were never a problem, right?

~Rick

TCCoA Sig
NetKeym is offline  
post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-02-2014, 03:13 PM
Seasoned PostWhore

Super Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tinton Falls, NJ
Age: 36
Posts: 7,430
Garage
Send a message via AIM to MadMikeyL
Quote:
Originally Posted by NetKeym View Post
I have an all plastic PI intake off a 2001 Crown Vic - from what I understand, these were never a problem, right?
Wrong! The all plastic intakes all are prone to cracking. Actually even the ones with the aluminum crossover are prone to cracking, just in a different place. What would really concern me about an all plastic intake is that it means it is at least 13 years old, and at that age it is on borrowed time whether it has the aluminum crossover or not.

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
-98 Mark VIII LSC, Procharger P600b, TR3650 swap and 3.73s.
-90 SC Automatic rustbucket winter beater
-97 Tbird Sport 4.6 Nice weather daily driver
-"Your buddy Mike is INSANE!" -ClintD's dad
MadMikeyL is offline  
post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-02-2014, 03:34 PM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
NEURO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 92
Oh goody...my intake was replaced by Ford when they released the TSB, late 90s I think. And you're saying that it's still a headache because of age now? Oh well...

NEURO (James)
________________________

1997 Thunderbird LX Sport
http://www.snellingwebdev.com
NEURO is offline  
post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-02-2014, 04:26 PM
Seasoned PostWhore

Super Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tinton Falls, NJ
Age: 36
Posts: 7,430
Garage
Send a message via AIM to MadMikeyL
Yup! The ones with the aluminum crossover crack in the plastic right underneath the crossover, or at the rear coolant outlet that goes to the heater core. Basically they didn't solve the problem, they just moved the failure point. If your intake hasn't been replaced since the late 90s, I would just be prepared to replace it soon.

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
-98 Mark VIII LSC, Procharger P600b, TR3650 swap and 3.73s.
-90 SC Automatic rustbucket winter beater
-97 Tbird Sport 4.6 Nice weather daily driver
-"Your buddy Mike is INSANE!" -ClintD's dad
MadMikeyL is offline  
post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-02-2014, 04:32 PM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
NEURO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 92
That's interesting. In all the posts I've read over the years, I've never read one about the manifold with the aluminum crossover from Ford failing. Dormans...I hear about them failing all the time, though.

NEURO (James)
________________________

1997 Thunderbird LX Sport
http://www.snellingwebdev.com
NEURO is offline  
post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-02-2014, 08:32 PM
Humble MN12 Genius
Super Moderator
 
XR7-4.6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Roselle IL
Posts: 16,596
Garage
Send a message via Yahoo to XR7-4.6
I've personally only seen it happen to the Dormans but it does happen. The integrated gaskets under the crossover mean there's a thin layer of plastic inside the port shaped O-rings and after a while they can break inward allowing coolant out the gasket between flanges. OEM intakes have that weak point only on the crossover side though and IMO it's way less of an issue. Dormans crack at both ends, and usually simultaneously, as they have those O-ring gaskets on both sides of the flange and leave very little material to hold it together and can be much more catastrophic when they go.

The heater hose piece can be fixed fairly easily with a tap and hose barb, and the ones I see that are broken always seem to have aftermarket straight hoses hooked to them. No doubt the tension from the bent hoses probably contributes to their failure.

-Matt
XR7-4.6 is offline  
post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-03-2014, 09:01 AM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
theterminator93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: North Ridgeville, Ohio
Age: 31
Posts: 9,042
Garage
The father-in-law had his OEM all-plastic intake replaced under the recall in the early 2000s (not sure on exact date) and his failed about 3 or 4 years ago - exactly as Mikey described (the plastic under the crossover where it meets the head) cracked and leaked. The factory replacement npi I pulled off my car in 2009 had signs of major corrosion there as well, plus it had the original heater outlet barb sawed off and replaced with a metal one like Matt described.

-Brandon
97 Laser Red Thunderbird LX 162k, Stage 2 4.6L 2v N/A | 300 BHP (255 RWHP, 290 RWTQ) | 13.95 @ 97.58 | Build details | Pics at the Lorain Assembly plant
98 Black Mark VIII 160k, stock daily driver
07 Redfire Fusion V6 SEL 178k, for the wife
Gone but not forgotten: 96 Mark VIII, 94 Cougar XR7, 93 Mark VIII

TCCoA's resident pilot since 2014
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the world with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return. -Leonardo da Vinci

Last edited by theterminator93; 02-03-2014 at 09:34 AM.
theterminator93 is offline  
post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-03-2014, 09:22 AM
Seasoned PostWhore

Super Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tinton Falls, NJ
Age: 36
Posts: 7,430
Garage
Send a message via AIM to MadMikeyL
FYI, here is when I found out the problem existed on the aluminum crossover intakes as well. Since that time, I have also seen 2 others fail in the same way, and 2 with the cracked heater hose outlet.

http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=136730

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
-98 Mark VIII LSC, Procharger P600b, TR3650 swap and 3.73s.
-90 SC Automatic rustbucket winter beater
-97 Tbird Sport 4.6 Nice weather daily driver
-"Your buddy Mike is INSANE!" -ClintD's dad
MadMikeyL is offline  
post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-05-2014, 01:31 AM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
NEURO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 92
Do the 1996 Cougar 4.6L engines also have the plastic intake manifold issue that needs to be replaced?

NEURO (James)
________________________

1997 Thunderbird LX Sport
http://www.snellingwebdev.com
NEURO is offline  
post #21 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-05-2014, 01:36 AM
Humble MN12 Genius
Super Moderator
 
XR7-4.6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Roselle IL
Posts: 16,596
Garage
Send a message via Yahoo to XR7-4.6
Yep

-Matt
XR7-4.6 is offline  
post #22 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-05-2014, 01:40 AM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
NEURO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 92
Thanks Matt.

My friend ran away from that 97 Cougar that had the engine issues I started this post with. We're now looking at a 96 Cougar, 4.6L, that looks like it's been well taken care of. We're going to see it tomorrow.

Since you're a Cougar master, do you have any tips to pass along? I'm a 97 Bird owner, so I'm not familiar with the differences between the cars or what to look out for on a 96 Cougar.

Thanks.

NEURO (James)
________________________

1997 Thunderbird LX Sport
http://www.snellingwebdev.com
NEURO is offline  
post #23 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-05-2014, 06:11 AM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
theterminator93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: North Ridgeville, Ohio
Age: 31
Posts: 9,042
Garage
96 and 97 are practically identical. The biggest differences are all interior - most notably the gauge cluster and center console are different. But that's about it.

-Brandon
97 Laser Red Thunderbird LX 162k, Stage 2 4.6L 2v N/A | 300 BHP (255 RWHP, 290 RWTQ) | 13.95 @ 97.58 | Build details | Pics at the Lorain Assembly plant
98 Black Mark VIII 160k, stock daily driver
07 Redfire Fusion V6 SEL 178k, for the wife
Gone but not forgotten: 96 Mark VIII, 94 Cougar XR7, 93 Mark VIII

TCCoA's resident pilot since 2014
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the world with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return. -Leonardo da Vinci
theterminator93 is offline  
post #24 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-05-2014, 07:40 AM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
dDUBb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Nor-Cal
Age: 38
Posts: 4,124
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by theterminator93 View Post
96 and 97 are practically identical. The biggest differences are all interior - most notably the gauge cluster and center console are different. But that's about it.
Transmission is slightly better on the 97. Valve body, accumulator pistons, deep sump pan and filter.
dDUBb is offline  
post #25 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-05-2014, 11:43 AM
WOT Junkie and avid corn burner
 
Mgino96tbird46's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Age: 29
Posts: 3,734
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCTbird1994 View Post
Transmission is slightly better on the 97. Valve body, accumulator pistons, deep sump pan and filter.
I think you mean '96. The '95 and below had the shallower pans and crappy other stuff. '96 and '97 transmissions should be pretty much the same.

Michael M. ASE P2 Automobile Parts Specialist.

1996 Thunderbird LX. Gone, but not forgotten Oct 1995-March 24 2016 Trick Flow headded, E85 guzzling beast.

1985 Mustang GT. modified stock Holley 4180C, Weiand Street Warrior intake manifold, equal length headers, true dual exhaust, 5 speed, 3.55:1 8.8'' rear end, Ford Racing 10.5" clutch.

1998 Mustang GT premium. Trans Go shift kit, Bassani catted x-pipe, PI heads, cams, intake swap, Accufab elbow, SCT Xcal 4 tune, Eibach Pro-kit, Maximum Motorsports Caster/camber plates, fat tires. Banging audio system.
Mgino96tbird46 is offline  
post #26 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-05-2014, 02:15 PM
6th Gear Poster
 
Platoribs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Streamwood, IL
Age: 61
Posts: 549
There's a low mileage Bostonian (3.8L V6) up here for sale for $4000...

http://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/cto/4283693542.html

Platoribs House of SHO
95 SHO MTX 73K grn/tan
93 SHO MTX 175K blu/blk
92 SC M5R2 98K Red/Grey tweed ->Blk Cloth SC
89 SC M5R2 112K Blu/Blk Shiny Cobra's! *coming out party, May 20th 2012* Now with moar suspension, brakes and slave cylinder...
91 SC M5R2 100K blk/blk tweed building
86 Mercedes-Benz 300e
Platoribs is offline  
post #27 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-05-2014, 04:10 PM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
dDUBb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Nor-Cal
Age: 38
Posts: 4,124
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgino96tbird46 View Post
I think you mean '96. The '95 and below had the shallower pans and crappy other stuff. '96 and '97 transmissions should be pretty much the same.
The pan and filter came out on the 1996 .. but no, there is a slight difference in the Valve body and the accumulator pistons came out in 1997. Not exactly the same.
dDUBb is offline  
post #28 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-05-2014, 05:16 PM
Humble MN12 Genius
Super Moderator
 
XR7-4.6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Roselle IL
Posts: 16,596
Garage
Send a message via Yahoo to XR7-4.6
Some 97s got the mechanical diode as well, that's a pretty good upgrade as well


Quote:
Originally Posted by NEURO View Post
Thanks Matt.

Since you're a Cougar master, do you have any tips to pass along? I'm a 97 Bird owner, so I'm not familiar with the differences between the cars or what to look out for on a 96 Cougar.

Thanks.
I'll spill the beans, Tbirds and Cougars are exactly the same. Although 93-97 Cougars don't have the decomposing rubber window/roof trim pieces Tbirds do, but the trade off is the quarter window trim seems to degrade worse than the Tbirds for some reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Platoribs View Post
There's a low mileage Bostonian (3.8L V6) up here for sale for $4000...

http://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/cto/4283693542.html
I wouldn't pay $400 for that heap, let alone 4k. 60k miles is low...ish, but it doesn't matter when it's got that stupid carriage top and luggage rack nailed onto the otherwise clean body. And it's a 3.8... bleh.

-Matt

Last edited by XR7-4.6; 02-05-2014 at 05:26 PM.
XR7-4.6 is offline  
post #29 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-05-2014, 07:00 PM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
NetKeym's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 5,862
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
Wrong! The all plastic intakes all are prone to cracking. Actually even the ones with the aluminum crossover are prone to cracking, just in a different place. What would really concern me about an all plastic intake is that it means it is at least 13 years old, and at that age it is on borrowed time whether it has the aluminum crossover or not.
Well that blows. I bought this intake from my girlfriend's son "site unseen" - when he brought it over, it was an all plastic PI Intake (which I didn't even know Ford made).

Well, I already paid for it, so I hope SOMEBODY can use it!

~Rick

TCCoA Sig
NetKeym is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the TCCoA Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome