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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-17-2014, 08:36 PM Thread Starter
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After PI Swap

Im getting Both Banks Running Lean after a PI Intake Manifold swap. I have used carb spray to try and find a leak with no success. Is it possible that the engine is not used to the added air flow and is what is throwing the code? Any advise would be appreciated

I used New Felpro gaskets on the manifold and used a degreaser to clean with before installing

Last edited by Dr Skye; 06-17-2014 at 08:42 PM.
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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-17-2014, 08:46 PM
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First off we need way more information with the swap did you use NPI gaskets or PI gaskets, what brand of intake Dorman or Ford, Did you change the injector o-rings, did you change the egr gasket, did you change the plenum gasket, how many miles are on the vehicle, when did you last clean the maf, when did you last change upstream o2's?

If all of those were gaskets were changed, and you used the ford intake manifold, and used pi gaskets, then chances are that you have a vacuum leak or dirty maf, other possibilities include things like weak o2's, possibly even a chafed/shorted o2 sensor harness, pcm, failed injector, stuck iac, etc...

Bottom line more info for more answers.

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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-17-2014, 09:41 PM
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yup exactly.

But for now, get rid of the idea that you have some ungodly amount of extra airflow that is not accounted for. Your car has a maf. The maf has a purpose, and it does it well. To measure any and all airfow into the engine at any given instant.

99.999% of the times it's just a vacuum leak you haven't found.
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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-17-2014, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_Murder View Post
First off we need way more information with the swap did you use NPI gaskets or PI gaskets, what brand of intake Dorman or Ford, Did you change the injector o-rings, did you change the egr gasket, did you change the plenum gasket, how many miles are on the vehicle, when did you last clean the maf, when did you last change upstream o2's?


Bottom line more info for more answers.
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Originally Posted by Dr Skye View Post
I used New Felpro gaskets on the manifold and used a degreaser to clean with before installing
Couldn't care less of the brand, since there is only a handful to choose from, judging by the fact the you did use "felpro gaskets" I'll make the assumption to one of those questions and assume your using the Ford brand of intake manifold.

Still doesn't put a dent in the perspective. For all we know you put Felpro NPI intake gaskets on a Dorman brand PI intake manifold. Which I hope is not the case. How many miles are on the vehicle, did you replace any of the other disturbed gaskets that I mentioned previously? Those gaskets are all potential vacuum leaks if they were reused.

-1996 Pearl White Thunderbird 4.6 Sport 4v with many mods:
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227hp/241tq measured on calibrated mustang dyno, tested at full vehicle simulation with inertia enabled, no number skewing.
-2001 White Ford F-250 Super Duty 6.8 V10, 4-door, 4x4, Limo Tint, BFG KO2's, Bilstein 7100 Remote Reservoir Race Bypass Shocks, 6" Spring lift, Kenwood Double Din, K&N Intake, FlowMaster Exhaust
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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-18-2014, 12:03 AM Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=Chris_Murder;1550449]First off we need way more information with the swap did you use NPI gaskets or PI gaskets,

I dont know if they are NPI or PI, here is the link to the gaskets that i got:
Fel-Pro MS957282 Manifold Set
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


what brand of intake Dorman or Ford,

I did get the Ford intake:
Ford Racing M9424P46 Intake Manifold
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Did you change the injector o-rings, did you change the egr gasket,

No, It was something that was on the to do list that didnt get done. They didnt look worn if that matters at all

did you change the plenum gasket,

the new manifold comes with a prebuilt gasket

how many miles are on the vehicle,

120K

when did you last clean the maf,

February This Year

when did you last change upstream o2's?

I am the second owner of the vehical, i have owned it for 7 years and in that time the o2 sensors have never been touched.

Sorry i didnt provide more info, i really didnt know what you guys needed to know to help me out I really appreciate you guys
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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-18-2014, 12:25 AM
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[QUOTE=Dr Skye;1550633]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_Murder View Post
First off we need way more information with the swap did you use NPI gaskets or PI gaskets,

I dont know if they are NPI or PI, here is the link to the gaskets that i got:
Fel-Pro MS957282 Manifold Set
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


what brand of intake Dorman or Ford,

I did get the Ford intake:
Ford Racing M9424P46 Intake Manifold
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Did you change the injector o-rings, did you change the egr gasket,

No, It was something that was on the to do list that didnt get done. They didnt look worn if that matters at all

did you change the plenum gasket,

the new manifold comes with a prebuilt gasket

how many miles are on the vehicle,

120K

when did you last clean the maf,

February This Year

when did you last change upstream o2's?

I am the second owner of the vehical, i have owned it for 7 years and in that time the o2 sensors have never been touched.

Sorry i didnt provide more info, i really didnt know what you guys needed to know to help me out I really appreciate you guys
You installed the wrong gaskets. Those are for the stock 1992-1998 NPI engine with the round tear-drop port shape. The PI intakes require PI gaskets that match the square-ish port shape. You also need to add RTV to the between the gasket and the heads but ONLY where the coolant ports mis-match. Otherwise you'll have a coolant leak.

So before you do anything do a search here or through Google Images to see how and where to apply RTV to seal the coolant port mis-match.
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post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-18-2014, 12:40 AM Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=guitar maestro;1550673]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Skye View Post

You installed the wrong gaskets. Those are for the stock 1992-1998 NPI engine with the round tear-drop port shape. The PI intakes require PI gaskets that match the square-ish port shape. You also need to add RTV to the between the gasket and the heads but ONLY where the coolant ports mis-match. Otherwise you'll have a coolant leak.

So before you do anything do a search here or through Google Images to see how and where to apply RTV to seal the coolant port mis-match.
I found a forum posting from 2009 where you stated using the NPI would cause air leaks if used with a PI intake.

Ive reading alot, like use the Red RTV (which cool enough found a pic on where to apply it: http://www.modularheadshop.com/images/100_2320.JPG or http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?p=1379176

I think i found the gaskets, but i do want to get confirmation:

http://www.amazon.com/Fel-Pro-MS9212...&vehicleType=5

Last edited by Dr Skye; 06-18-2014 at 01:27 AM.
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post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-18-2014, 02:01 AM
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[QUOTE=Dr Skye;1550681]
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitar maestro View Post

I found a forum posting from 2009 where you stated using the NPI would cause air leaks if used with a PI intake.

Ive reading alot, like use the Red RTV (which cool enough found a pic on where to apply it: http://www.modularheadshop.com/images/100_2320.JPG or http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?p=1379176

I think i found the gaskets, but i do want to get confirmation:

http://www.amazon.com/Fel-Pro-MS9212...&vehicleType=5
yup, I tried NPI gaskets with sealant on the intake ports and there were air leaks because gasoline vapors kills RTV sealant, hence why you need PI gaskets. Coolant won't deteriorate RTV on the coolant passages. Those are the proper gaskets. Remember that you need to let the RTV cure for 24 hours minimum.
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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-18-2014, 02:08 AM Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=guitar maestro;1550689]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Skye View Post

yup, I tried NPI gaskets with sealant on the intake ports and there were air leaks because gasoline vapors kills RTV sealant, hence why you need PI gaskets. Coolant won't deteriorate RTV on the coolant passages. Those are the proper gaskets. Remember that you need to let the RTV cure for 24 hours minimum.
I really appreciate it guitar maestro, ill order those gaskets tonight along with the sealant and should have it thursday or friday, ill give you an update once everything has been completed!
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post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-18-2014, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Skye View Post

I found a forum posting from 2009 where you stated using the NPI would cause air leaks if used with a PI intake.

Ive reading alot, like use the Red RTV (which cool enough found a pic on where to apply it: http://www.modularheadshop.com/images/100_2320.JPG or http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?p=1379176

I think i found the gaskets, but i do want to get confirmation.

http://www.amazon.com/Fel-Pro-MS9212...&vehicleType=5
Yes NPI gaskets on NPI heads with a PI intake causes vacuum leaks. Hence the lean condition, surprised it ran.

Yes red RTV is fine, so is black or grey RTV, avoid copper or blue on this application in my opinion. Like mentioned above make sure it has time to cure. Or if you don't want to wait then you can spend the extra cash and use Permatex Right Stuff Ultra Black RTV, it sets up super fast, less down time and waiting for rtv to cure.

Yes those are the correct gaskets for the swap just make sure to use the rtv on the 2 specified triangular coolant ports and that should take care of the vacuum leak causing your lean codes. Make sure to disconnect the battery or reset the pcm after the repair. Obviously if the check engine light comes back on and throws another lean code you still have vacuum leaks, but it's likely that the wrong gaskets are the source of the leak in this situation.

Thank you for taking the time to answer the questions, without details it's hard to get the whole picture. Didn't mean to seem to come off rude in anyway, we just need all the information to point you in the right direction.

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-2001 White Ford F-250 Super Duty 6.8 V10, 4-door, 4x4, Limo Tint, BFG KO2's, Bilstein 7100 Remote Reservoir Race Bypass Shocks, 6" Spring lift, Kenwood Double Din, K&N Intake, FlowMaster Exhaust
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Last edited by Chris_Murder; 06-18-2014 at 09:29 PM.
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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-21-2014, 04:32 PM Thread Starter
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Just an update, got everything removed, definately could tell on the old tear drop gaskets where it was leaking, here are the new PI gaskets, thanks @ guitar maestro & Chris_Murder for all the info and help. Letting them cure for the 24hrs + cant wait to see the results

Kinda looks like brains smashed below those gaskets :P
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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-21-2014, 05:02 PM
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just please please don't forget all the vacuum line connections (as well as not breaking them in the process). You don't know how many countless threads I have seen that start with "Did PI intake swap, now {not idling right, stumbling, trouble starting, engine dying out, stalling, you name it}"
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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-21-2014, 08:49 PM
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that's quite a bit of RTV really only need a tiny bit under the toe of the bootshaped port. should do the trick though as long as the intake went on right away before the RTV cured. sometimes it causes leaks under rubber gaskets if it cures beforhand.

anyway, enjoy the PI swap

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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-22-2014, 02:04 AM
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Indeed, direct from the horse's mouth: Permatex Ultra Black

Quote:
Assemble parts immediately while silicone is still wet.
and
Quote:
The product dries tack free in two hours
and fully cures in 24 hours. Cure times will vary with
temperature, humidity and gap.
It doesn't cure faster than others.
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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-22-2014, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torque View Post
Indeed, direct from the horse's mouth: Permatex Ultra Black


and


It doesn't cure faster than others.
The Permatex Right Stuff Ultra Black cures even faster then that.

-1996 Pearl White Thunderbird 4.6 Sport 4v with many mods:
Current Best: 13.583 @ 103.74 10/2014.
227hp/241tq measured on calibrated mustang dyno, tested at full vehicle simulation with inertia enabled, no number skewing.
-2001 White Ford F-250 Super Duty 6.8 V10, 4-door, 4x4, Limo Tint, BFG KO2's, Bilstein 7100 Remote Reservoir Race Bypass Shocks, 6" Spring lift, Kenwood Double Din, K&N Intake, FlowMaster Exhaust
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post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-22-2014, 02:18 AM
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I couldn't find Right Stuff Ultra Black on their site. I found regular Right Stuff and Right Stuff Gray. All those require 24 hours for full cure, according to their docs.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torque View Post
I couldn't find Right Stuff Ultra Black on their site. I found regular Right Stuff and Right Stuff Gray. All those require 24 hours for full cure, according to their docs.
Right Stuff = Right Stuff Ultra Black, many refer to it as that now since it now also comes in gray.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Permatex
Temperature range -75F to 450F (-59C to 232C) continuous, 500F (260C) intermittent.

Return equipment to service immediately when you make leak-proof gaskets in just one minute with the Right Stuff. This latest elastomeric rubber gasket technology is blowout resistant and outperforms pre-cut gaskets. Resists ATF, coolant, oil and other shop fluids. Protects against leaks caused by vibration and thermal expansion.

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Current Best: 13.583 @ 103.74 10/2014.
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-2001 White Ford F-250 Super Duty 6.8 V10, 4-door, 4x4, Limo Tint, BFG KO2's, Bilstein 7100 Remote Reservoir Race Bypass Shocks, 6" Spring lift, Kenwood Double Din, K&N Intake, FlowMaster Exhaust
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post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-23-2014, 11:01 PM Thread Starter
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Everything went back together without a hitch. Had a rough idle for a 10 mins but once i went to drive it around, smooth sailing. I cant believe the difference too. I thought that there was such a difference when i messed up the first time with the npi gaskets :P No leaks either, let it sit over night to watch for the dreaded puddle underneath incase i messed up something, but good news, all is well. Tomorrow, going to drive down to the beach @110 miles. Ill let you guys know if its still running
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post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-25-2014, 10:15 AM Thread Starter
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The car is still running, i am experiencing it idling really hard and then it goes away. A check engine light popped up right as i got to the beach P0174, for bank 2 running lean, and a pending P0171 for bank 1 running lean. Im going to next change the fuel injectors o rings (i inspected the orings before putting the intake back on and noticed that injector #5 was missing part of the oring,... Soooo yeah, the only vacuum line that i think is loose is the PCV valve, it was a bit hard and and loose, so ill probably change that too. If you guys have any other recommendations to check let me know.

On a side note about the performance: When i hit that gas, man does it GOOOOO! Crazy how fast that acceleration is now.
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post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-25-2014, 11:27 AM
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Check and replace all vacuum lines that are compromised.
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post #21 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-26-2014, 08:44 PM
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so how did it go with the repair on this repair
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post #22 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-01-2014, 10:41 AM Thread Starter
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Have not had a chance to do the repair. Lost a job and got a new one, so i have been a bit busy and a little tight on funds. I just ordered the new gaskets today, and will be preforming the repair sometime next week. Ill keep you posted

On a side note, Check engine light came on for Misfire Cylinder 2. I am 99% sure this is due to the gaskets. I did verify that the fuel injector is working, there is nothing wrong with the plugs or wires, and if it was the coil then the whole bank would be having problems.
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post #23 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-02-2014, 10:20 AM
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Get youself a set of pi heads and stop messing around with this ten horsepower gain. They are worth the added effort and you won't need to rtv anything.

04 mustang pi engine, 4R75W, 2500 stall TC, Teksid block still in the garage being dreamed about
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post #24 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-02-2014, 12:46 PM
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You gonna buy him the PI heads, AlanE?

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post #25 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-02-2014, 01:57 PM
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Ah yes, get PI heads and get another 10 horsepower gain

-Matt
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post #26 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-02-2014, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
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Get youself a set of pi heads and stop messing around with this ten horsepower gain. They are worth the added effort and you won't need to rtv anything.
Pi intake is worth more than 10hp.
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post #27 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-14-2014, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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Finished the repair, and the car would work fine and then all of a sudden run rough, then went back to being fine. It was like a light switch on and off whenever it felt like it.... Check engine came up for Cylinder 3 misfire. I did some more probing,and I think that the rough idle comes and goes due to fact that i didnt have any dielectric grease on any of the connectors... Added some and now working fine (for the moment) Ill give you another update in a week

Last edited by Dr Skye; 08-14-2014 at 03:29 PM.
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post #28 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-14-2014, 06:31 PM
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dielectric grease is not required for proper operation. Pull off the plug wire and look for liquids in the spark plug well.
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