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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 07-16-2002, 12:52 AM Thread Starter
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Question Whats the best aftermarket Throttle Body...

Whats the best aftermarket Throttle Body to go with?

How big is to big?

What size is best?

What kind of gains am I going to see if any?(I know its no good till i do head work but i dont have the $$$$ for that)

Thanks Guys!

Brian Macfadden
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 07-16-2002, 02:32 AM
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Smile Brian....Why not...

go with a Mustang GT 80mm MAF? You should be able to pick
up a fairly new one from somebody doing an upgrade on a
Mustang site for a good price. You definitely don't need
to go bigger than that. I'm running an 80mm LMAF with my
AED setup and "you know who" has told me twice that until
PI heads and a high flow true dual system enters the
picture - 80mm is plenty big enough. The same goes for your
throttle body. Leave it be for now - when you get to some
more serious breathing mods, then jump to a 70mm TB.

If your chip is a black Diablo (check with Dennis), he
can reflash it for your new MAF - as well as all the other
goodies included in his reburn.

I would consider a looser exhaust system also. Even a
Dynomax catback has some benefit, as you get rid of a
particularly nasty compressed bend after the third cat
and get a set of freer flowing mufflers.

Hope this helps,

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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 07-17-2002, 11:47 PM
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I got a 75mm Edelbrock Throttle body, it's a little bigger then your inlet on your intake plenum, and if you want to have all the flow you got to port that plenum to the Throttle body size. but personally I think that a 70mm throttle body would be perfect for most applications.

you'll have a better throttle response and maybe a slight increase in accelaration.

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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-25-2004, 10:49 PM
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sorry to bring up this old thread but do you need a reflash for a bigger throttle body and ud pullies?any help would be appreciated thanks


Tom

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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-25-2004, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 281_tuner
sorry to bring up this old thread but do you need a reflash for a bigger throttle body and ud pullies?any help would be appreciated thanks


Tom
You 'should' get a retune for it, but its not going to pose any real problems if you don't, at most your idle may be a little off.
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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-25-2004, 11:17 PM
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see the thing is im doing a pi swap and theres no telling when im going to get a dyno tune or another reflash,"maybe never lol" so i really dont know what to do i can get a deal on a reflashed eec but i also want the other mods,any suggestions?


Tom

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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-25-2004, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 281_tuner
see the thing is im doing a pi swap and theres no telling when im going to get a dyno tune or another reflash,"maybe never lol" so i really dont know what to do i can get a deal on a reflashed eec but i also want the other mods,any suggestions?


Tom
Well do you really need a 75mm throttle body?
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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-25-2004, 11:58 PM
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-26-2004, 08:18 AM
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I think so I will for sure be having some work done to my heads. and I plan to extrude hone my exhaust manifolds to my heads and upper plenum to match my tb 70mm or 75mm one of the two.


Tom
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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-26-2004, 11:06 AM
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your MAF should see the increased airflow when you switch out the TB, and the O2 sensors will help the engine accomadate for the change. On the other hand, if you are getting PI heads and Porting them I'm not sure if your MAF can handle all that extra airflow. You should definately consider getting a new MAF too.

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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-26-2004, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by NRL

You 'should' get a retune for it, but its not going to pose any real problems if you don't, at most your idle may be a little off.
the EECs adaptive strategy if he has one of Js chips might be able to read the changes in the engine parameters and adjust accordingly. My chip seemed to have been able to adjust for the changes in my TC when I put in my new trans..A reburn wouldnt hurt though.

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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 12:01 PM
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Have to add my 2 cents....

Go ACCUFAB and no need to go more then a 70. You go from 425 cfm to 680 cfm. There have been independant tests and they show that the Accufab has the most power increase for the LONGEST amount of powerband of any of them.

I traded my C&L plenum for the Accufab and never looked back. If you like chrome its the one for you also. I dont care for chrome, but thats what it is.

On a side note I worked directly with Accufab to create the first 97 Plenum. No the mustang plenum will NOT work on the 96 and 97 Birds. They need to have the brake booster vacuum line installed in the back of them.

Not to bring up an old thread, but still very useful information. Got rid of that damn ford racing tb and BBK one that whistled even when it wasnt working. lol

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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BirdofPrey97
You go from 425 cfm to 680 cfm.
And just how many cfm do you think a stock or even a modified 4.6L can move?
Do the math,then think about it.
I don't like Accufab's deceptive marketing scheme using CFM as a sales tool.
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 08:27 PM
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The stock cfm is 425 thats what ford says. C&L moves around 660cfm. These may not be exact numbers been a few months since I looked at it all. They all do cfm ratings.

I had C&L and hated it. I have Accufab and love it. As I said thats just my 2 cents. Read what the 3rd party said here. This is the 2nd of 2 tests. You can check their site for the first test, but the results are the same both times. Accufab wins!!

http://www.modulardepot.com/?show=articlesdet&aid=38

I dont want to argue with anyone, but they do make the best available product.

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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BirdofPrey97
The stock cfm is 425 thats what ford says. C&L moves around 660cfm. These may not be exact numbers been a few months since I looked at it all. They all do cfm ratings.

I had C&L and hated it. I have Accufab and love it. As I said thats just my 2 cents. Read what the 3rd party said here. This is the 2nd of 2 tests. You can check their site for the first test, but the results are the same both times. Accufab wins!!

http://www.modulardepot.com/?show=articlesdet&aid=38

I dont want to argue with anyone, but they do make the best available product.
That's not what I asked...
How many CFM can the engine consume?..not how much the TB can flow.
Engine analyzer says my new combo will max out CFM at 7700 rpm @633 cfm.
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post #16 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 08:36 PM
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Cool. Mine is rated at 677cfm. Sorry I misunderstood you. Once I get the larger headers it should make it a bit more even.

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post #17 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 09:06 PM
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Your engine is consuming 677 cfm??? at what rpm??.... what kind of head/cams/compression are you running??... you must have a forged bottom if you're turning over 7500 rpm..... and I'm guessing about 350rwhp???


Here's another thread on aftermarket TB's... TB Whistle

In it this is one of the things The Man has to say about aftermarket TB's in general:

Quote:
Originally posted by SCT Guy
Whistle is a very interesting problem. It can be caused by seveal things.

The most common is the aftermarket throttle body manufacturers inabiltiy to make a quality part, this is all of them, not just one. A Ford throttle body is made the following way; There is a hole stamped in it for air flow when the blade is closed. Then the blade is closed in the bore and the hard stop is cranked open so that the blade does not stick in the bore. Then, to prevent air leaks a chemical substance called RJ is sprayed on the back of the throttle body blade to seal the blade to the bore. This ensures that the only air flow going into the engine at closed throttle is through that hole and the idle speed valve.

I can assure you that no aftermarket TB manufacturer does this. At one point BBK was spraying an epoxy paint on the back of their throttle bodies, but it flaked off (and was at best a poor solution). The problem is this, to do what I described costs money to set it all up (and RJ is a carcynogentic (I can't spell) compound that requires special handling $$) and do it right. So let's say our Accufab buddies go the extra mile and do all this and make it right. Now their throttle body will cost more than their compeition. So, you as the consumer think, why should I pay more for their throttle body, it's just a throttlebody. So you buy someone elses and they lose business. They have no choice now but to make a sub-Ford standard part to stay in that business. In addition, even if they marketed their throttle body as being better than the other guys, and it would be, can they really charge more money for it, probably not. There will always be some idiot that says his cheap *** TB has no problems. In the mean time he has no clue that his air integrator in his PCM is going nuts trying to control idle, and *****es to his tuner that it doesn't seem to idle right....But, it's just a throttle body.

So, it really comes down to you the consumer being cheap asses and buying stuff that is marginal in quality, so the people that want to do a good job have no choice but to succomb to that level to continue to sell parts. You get what you pay for, a cheap throttlebody is, well, cheap. Its your fault, not theirs.

Now, there are also some other things that can cause whistle, like how the air from the idle speed valve gets introduced into the elbow (it's not a plenum, that's at the bottom of the manifold). The ISC valve flows air at part throttle and the way the air passes through the clean air tube, where the ISC gets it's air from, and the way it's introduced after the valve can have a huge affect on whistle.

From the factory on many cars is an ISC damper, that square black box. This is designed to help some of these issues.

j

There's more...

-mike

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post #18 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 09:49 PM
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Didnt somebody do a pressure test on the TBs to prove this point also? See if I can find it. Hell, could probably do one myself since I have the 70mm in BBK, Accufab, and Ford Racing then theres Mac and since I dont have one of those probably shouldnt do the test since not all aftermarkets will be represented.

Or you can simply take ur TB and fill up our sink with water. Make sure the butterfly is closed and put the intake side face down into the water and test if air and or water come through it provided you dont submurge the entire product.

This however is just a monkeys way of doing a simple test. Also, when is a TB fully closed? Maybe on these -30 days in MN, but I don't drive my Bird in that weather. She is nicely nested up in the garage.

Who has read comsumer reports on these TBs? Would like to know what they say......

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post #19 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BirdofPrey97
Who has read comsumer reports on these TBs? Would like to know what they say......
That's ok, I'll take Jerry's word for it..

Then there's this:

Quote:
Originally posted by SCT Guy
The single biggest problem I see is the throttle body air flow not set right. This problem manifests itself in several ways;

The engine races too much at startup.

When you go to closed throttle the car doesn't slow down like it use to.

The idle could hunt some.

When you push in the cluch on a manual, the engine speed flares up (although there is some of this in a stock car, but that's another post).

I didn't even get into this, but let's say you realize that the airflow is too high so you turn the screw down. Well, without the RJ to seal the blade in the bore, you can probably go all the way down to the point where the blade sticks in the bore. Anyone ever have their TB stick when coming in from closed throttle?

I know of no aftermarket company that sets the airflow when the blade is closed, and can control that airflow to within normal Ford tolerance. I even worked with one once to help them and when the dust settled, they didn't want to take the time to do it, they didn't have a flow bench to create that much vacuum, stuff like that.

Go talk to the '03 Cobra or Lightning guys (my friends ) with the single blade throttle body and ask them how well idle is controled. It's not, not at all. The shafts are too thin (in an attempt to make them smaller to get more air flow) so the blade actually distorts under vacuum and the closed bore air flow actually changes with time as the blade/shaft take a permanent set. Total nightmare....

If all you have is whistle, you should feel lucky.

j

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post #20 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 10:38 PM
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Now we all know what makes a good TB, well.......Which one is the best?? That still hasn't been awnsered. Regardless of price which is best?

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post #21 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-21-2004, 02:03 AM
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I've got a Trickflow plenum with a 75mm BBK throttle body. I don't hear any TB whistle and i'm happy with the results i've gotten from the combo

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post #22 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-21-2004, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DMcBrideBoston
Now we all know what makes a good TB, well.......Which one is the best?? That still hasn't been awnsered. Regardless of price which is best?
Quote:
the aftermarket throttle body manufacturers inabiltiy to make a quality part, this is all of them, not just one
Quote:
I know of no aftermarket company that sets the airflow when the blade is closed, and can control that airflow to within normal Ford tolerance
Quote:
I can assure you that no aftermarket TB manufacturer does this.
Does what???

Quote:
There is a hole stamped in it for air flow when the blade is closed. Then the blade is closed in the bore and the hard stop is cranked open so that the blade does not stick in the bore. Then, to prevent air leaks a chemical substance called RJ is sprayed on the back of the throttle body blade to seal the blade to the bore. This ensures that the only air flow going into the engine at closed throttle is through that hole and the idle speed valve.
And who does???

Quote:
A Ford throttle body is made the following way
Of course that's just "one man's" take on aftermarket TB's in general, but this particular man knows what he's talking about.

I believe that JL's original point is that for the vast majority of the applications out there, stock TB's at 425cfm move plenty enough air. When an aftermarket TB company advertises that their products is "better" only because it can move 200 cfm more air and offers no other advantage, it is deceptive because virtually no one will be able to utilize that 200 cfm more air... When you couple that with what is said above about the inferior way they are manufactured they are enticing folks to buy an inferior product that will effectively provide no benefit, unless you're the one in a hundred 4.6 engine that can consume more than 425 CFM.

If you look at JL's last post carefully, his new set up is rated to move 633 CFM @ 7700 rpm. I would say that is a one in a hundred, maybe one in a thousand set-up.... how many guys out there can turn 7700 rpm in a 4.6???

If you want a bigger TB, FRPP makes a 70mm (M-9926-D462) for '96+ applications that lists for $219.95. Dan Newman discounts that price.

-mike

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N/A:
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BLOWN: Renegade NPI heads; Renegade shortblock; Intercooled T-Trim; some other stuff
Pump Gas Numbers - 547 rwhp / 525 ft.lbs; Best Time - 11.388 @ 118.68 (Commerce, GA - November 2007)
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post #23 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-21-2004, 08:54 AM
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I had the ford racing TB and it didnt perform as well as the Accufab.

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post #24 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-21-2004, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BirdofPrey97
I had the ford racing TB and it didnt perform as well as the Accufab.
That's interesting... how much more HP and TQ did you get from the Accufab??? Can you post the dyno graphs.. I'm assuming the only change was the TB... unfortunately I always seem to do a few things between dyno's so it's hard to tell which mod did what....

But it sounds like you've got some data... please post it...

How did it hold up over time compared to the FRPP??? any issues??? whistling, poor idle, sticking, etc...???


I had a BBK 75mm in mine, and it seem to work ok... not sure about gains, though cause I ported the plenum at the same time and went to a different dyno for numbers... I also went from the stock 65mm up to the 75mm.. I only had it on for a very short time, though... a couple of months, maybe 3000 miles and 30 or so passes... so I don't know if it would have developed any of the problems described above over time...

Before the 75mm I put a MAC 70mm on for awhile and I saw absolutley no gains, actually lost a bit, so I put the stocker back on and got it back (same dyno, only change)...

If you're truly pulling 677cfm of air through your engine, maybe the 70mm wasn't big enough for your application... you may be another one of those one-in-a-hundred/thousand 4.6's that needs more than the Ford TB can give...

At the time I put the 75mm BBK on, I was around 245 hp at the wheels and my heads/cams setup was real close to what JL is working on now (pnp heads and aftermarket cams).. So I suspect I may have needed the air also... maybe not...

I'm not saying that aftermarket TB's don't have a use for some folks... What I'm saying is that for most applications the intakes and heads/cams combination is the restriction, not the stock or 70mm TB... you can only pull as much air through the TB as the engine can handle... Having the potential to let 680cfm in is useless if your intake/heads/cams/exhaust/compression will only pull 350cfm... So why should someone pay $300 for a TB they won't ever get the benefit from, especially at the risk of introducing potential problems due to inferior manufacturing..

For those of us that need them, we have no choice, 'cause Ford doesn't make one bigger than 70mm for our stock intakes...

I'd still like to see that hard data on the FRPP vs. Accufab TB..


-mike

96 GoldBird

'96 T-Bird LX 4.6L Alive & well & living in S. Florida

N/A:
Renegade NPI heads/Comp Cams; OEM intake manifold; Bolt-ons
245 rwhp; 13.713 @ 99.35 (Commerce, GA - November 2003)


BLOWN: Renegade NPI heads; Renegade shortblock; Intercooled T-Trim; some other stuff
Pump Gas Numbers - 547 rwhp / 525 ft.lbs; Best Time - 11.388 @ 118.68 (Commerce, GA - November 2007)
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post #25 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-21-2004, 01:47 PM
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Mike,

Dont mind you showing the information and sharing it thats great!!, but can you at least show both sides of the arguement?

Here's a response to what J say by and Accufab employee and then J's response to the Accufab employee's comments:

"
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by George Klass
So, why does it whistle? Good question. We occasionally do hear complaints from customers that their TB's whistle. Not often, considering our volume, but every now and then. we are not sure what the cause is either. Not long ago, a customer with a 4.6 TB and Plenum complined about the whistle, and we asked him to please send it back so we could check it out. We could find nothing wrong and so we shined it back up and returned it to the customer. A few days later he emailed us a thank us for sending him a "new TB and Plenum". "This one works just great and doesn't whistle". We didn't know why it whistled in the first place, nor why it stopped.

About throttle bodies. There has been some mis-information posted on this thread that needs to be addressed. The TB has only one purpose and that is to act as an air valve. It lets air into the engine. The TB is a mechanical piece and has only one moving part, the shaft (and attached blade). A mechanical cable opens the blade and a mechanical spring closes it. The only mechanical adjustment to the TB is the "closed blade position" which is controlled by a stop screw. The only purpose of this screw is to define the exact location of the blade when the throttle is closed.

Everything else regarding the operation of the TB is controlled by the computer. The Idle Air Control (IAC) valve and the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) are electronic valves/sensors, both giving and/or recieving information to/from the computer. In most cases, the OEM computer has enough "window or range" to deal with the only thing a larger TB can do, which is to permit additional incoming air. When an engine is modified beyond what the OEM computer can deal with (out of range), this is when some drive-ability issues can arise, such as strange idle RPM's, idle hunting, etc.

This problem doesn't happen all of the time, but it does happen. Trying different computer settings (with plug-in or programmable chips) may help, or it may make it worse, depending on the skill level and knowledge of the programmer. There are competent "chip tuners" out there and there are some "wannabe's". Some tuners know how to handle the issues surrounding increased airflow and some don't. Those that don't tend to blame the throttle body.

In 95% of the cases that we have heard about in which the customer has had idle related problems, it is almost always because one of two (or both) things have happened. They have either changed the adjustment of the throttle stop screw (pre-set at Accufab "with the blade closed" on our Superflow 1020 Flow Bench before it's shipped) or have incorrectly (or not at all) adjusted the TPS. We include a warning with every TB that says "do not touch this screw" but some do it anyway.
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I promise I'll be nice, but I want to explore this further...

Since I have an extensive OEM background, I know all about whistle and what causes it in most cases. If you want to know, we can take that off line and talk about it. I would like nothing more than some company somewhere to make a quality throttle body, in my opinion, no one makes consistant throttle bodies. Some are good, some are bad. If you have a 10% failure rate (that meaning the air flow is not right, the TP voltage is not right, it whistles, it sticks in the bore) is that good? Would you to a doctor that 10% of his patients didn't get cured?

What is the air flow set point of your throttle bodies and at what pressure drop? Do you mind sharing the min/max spread of the air flow set point?

I agree that in most cases the TPS setting should not matter. The EEC learns the voltage at closed throttle when you key on and then subtracts this closed throttle voltage from the actual voltage to get a throttle position relative to closed throttle. Unless it's way off, and I really doubt you have ever made anything that far off, it will learn and be happy, no adjustment necessary.

The EEC has an air flow from the throttle body, an air flow from the PCV valve and has an air flow to make the engine idle at the desired RPM (based on coolant temp, load, etc). If you change the flow through the throttle body then this calculation is off and it won't idle correctly, like Starkies car. I think, in my little world, all your throttle bodies should have the same air flow and peak to peak tolerance that the OEM TB does. That way it's a true bolt on part that doesn't require anybody to pay a tuner to fix their car because they put your part they put on on it.

I agree that the screw defines when the TB is closed, but at that point there should be NO air flow around the blade, only through a hole. If you rely on air flow around the closed blade, things like PCV build up, EGR, coking, and just dirt, will collect around the blade, changing it's air flow over time. This is bad. So now it was fine and now it stalls. A sealed blade in the bore with all the air flow coming through the hole solves this problem. Do you seal the blade in the bore? If not, why?

I really don't think anyone (unless you have an automatic trans car) should pay someone to make their car right after a throttle body change. Make the air flow the same as Ford's air flow, if you don't know it, I'll get it for, if you will actually do it.

j"

Like I said previously, the Accufab I have works perfectly and there is no IAC issues. Took the puter a few days to learn it, but after that no issues at all and never had a whistle. I forwarded what was said by J to Accufab's main man Jerry and waiting to hear his response. I will make sure to post it here.

Thanks all,

Todd

Honor, Grace, and Dignity.....Do you remember these?
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