Question for the experts - TCCoA Forums
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-10-2017, 07:42 AM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 62
Question for the experts

I have been on this site for a while and I know there are some really knowledgeable guys here. I am having an issue with 97 Bird 4.6 with 201,xxx miles. DTC codes P0172 and P0175 occurred just after 200K and I have been chasing this problem for quite a while. So far I have checked for vacuum leaks and corrected a few minor ones. A friends scanner indicated fuel trims over -15 to 25 range when the engine was hot and noted the hotter the engine got the worse the furl trims got. The cooling fan seemed slow to come on so I replaced the ECT and IAT sensors. I swapped the purge solenoid and still no improvement. I then had a "professional" scan which indicated the MAF was "slightly" out of spec so I replaced the MAF. Fuel pressure was found to be within range. The professional exhausted his list of items to check and ended up with fuel injectors as the problem and suggested using a cleaner to possibly free a stuck injector. Done with no improvement. Lastly, I just swapped out the CCRM from my other 97 Bird to see if the temp issue could be the cause. After 3-4 restarts the CEL was back and so was the P0172 code. No doubt if I drive some more the P0175 will return.

I have read many posts on this site and others and I believe I have checked or replaced all the suggested causes, except for replacing the O2 sensors (which do not seem to be the problem according to the websites) and replacing the injectors.The car runs good with no performance issues although gas mileage does seem to be less than normal. I am not a novice mechanic but not an expert either, especially with all the computer controls on these models.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Sorry for the long post but I thought more info the better.
ranco is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-10-2017, 05:09 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

Moderator
 
Grog6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Harriman, TN
Age: 56
Posts: 9,869
Garage
Replace the o2 sensors, and check the intake manifold for a leak.

A leak at the exhaust manifold will also show lean.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
Grog6 is offline  
post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-11-2017, 10:20 PM
PostWhore
 
decipha's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Orleans, LA
Posts: 1,475
the o2 sensors should have been the first item to be replaced, more than likely that's your problem

supercoupin'

www.EFIDynoTuning.com
decipha is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-13-2017, 07:48 AM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 62
Thanks for the replies(2). I am somewhat surprised by the comments regarding the O2 sensors as most of what I have read indicate the O2 sensors are usually not the cause, only the device that signals the problem. What are your opinions about the engine temp affecting the fuel trims as indicated by one of the scans? And how would the O2 sensors affect ECT?

And the comments about the leaking manifold causing a "lean" condition does not seem applicable as there is a "rich" condition on both banks.

I just don't want to change parts trying to find the problem.
ranco is offline  
post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-13-2017, 10:35 AM
Moderator & Teksid Whore
Super Moderator
 
guitar maestro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Laredo, Texas
Age: 39
Posts: 11,961
Send a message via MSN to guitar maestro Send a message via Yahoo to guitar maestro
Have you tried using a vacuum gauge to determine if there is a leak upstream of the cylinder heads? At 200k, you should have replaced the upstream O2 sensors 140k miles ago.
guitar maestro is offline  
post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-14-2017, 06:51 AM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 62
So if I should have replaced the O2 sensors at 60K does that mean I need to change them 3 times? (hehe) The curious thing is there had not been any issue in engine performance and no CEL until after 200K. Regular maintenance- oil, filters, lubes, etc but no other issues engine wise. It's like a switch went on at 200K but performance is still OK.

Where would you suggest I use a vacuum gauge upstream from the cylinder heads?
ranco is offline  
post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-14-2017, 07:02 AM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
theterminator93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: North Ridgeville, Ohio
Age: 31
Posts: 9,019
Garage
Brake booster line is a good place to grab vacuum from IMO.

-Brandon
97 Laser Red Thunderbird LX 161k, Stage 2 4.6L 2v N/A | 300 BHP (255 RWHP, 290 RWTQ) | 13.95 @ 97.58 | Build details | Pics at the Lorain Assembly plant
98 Black Mark VIII 155k, stock daily driver
07 Redfire Fusion V6 SEL 178k, for the wife
Gone but not forgotten: 96 Mark VIII, 94 Cougar XR7, 93 Mark VIII

TCCoA's resident pilot since 2014
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the world with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return. -Leonardo da Vinci
theterminator93 is offline  
post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-17-2017, 05:51 AM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 62
OK - sorry it has taken so long to reply. I've been busy with other issues. I replaced both O2 sensors(pre-cat) with NZT (OE style) with no improvement. P0172 and P0175 are back almost immediately. Back to engine temp possibly being an issue. As reported b4 I replaced the ECT sensors. I note the cooling fan does not seem to come on for an extended period of time. Gauge temp shows at approximately 1/3 of operating range. Infrared temp shows temp at outlet at 190 F which seems to be in line with 195 F t-stat. Fuel trims are normal until engine temp rises. Turn on the AC which starts the fans regardless of engine temp and fuel trims drop to normal immediately. Scan shows MAF at 0.2 lbs/s. Next I am going to replace t-stat (current one is about 8 years old) and flush cooling system.

As stated b4 there is no performance issue. NO rough idle, No stumble on accel, No lag.

Any other suggestions are welcome.

Oops - my bad. I reported the MAF value as 0.2 lbs/s when it actually 0.02 lbs/s. I presume that means pounds per second so that would equal 1.2 pounds per minute. Is that what the value should be?

Last edited by ranco; 06-17-2017 at 07:50 AM. Reason: Mistake
ranco is offline  
post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-17-2017, 11:54 AM
Kind of slapped together
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Bossier City, LA
Age: 63
Posts: 4,810
OK. At this point, I'd grab an OBDII scanner and datalog what the ECU thinks is going on.

Suggestion: If you have an Android device with Bluetooth, pick up an ELM327 type adapter, and a copy of Torque (Free or Pro; last time I bought, Pro was $5 or so) and datalog so you have visibility into what the ECU thinks is happening.

RwP

Fuelly
RalphP is offline  
post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 01:11 AM
1st Gear Poster
 
donate12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 40
Garage
When you checked the fuel pressure, did you test the pressure regulator? A leaking regulator can cause a rich condition. That and a stuck injector would have been high on my list. How did you clean the injectors? Last time I tackled that issue, I had to actually remove them and clean them thoroughly to get them back up to par.

Trust me. I was almost a doctor once.
donate12 is offline  
post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 07:15 AM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
Silver95Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Gouldsboro, PA
Age: 36
Posts: 3,178
Have you used a test light to verify the injectors on that bank are pulsing like they should and not being hung open? I seem to recall that being more common on 94-5 cars.

96 Mustang GT 5spd. w/ 248A Option (GTS). Stock for now until I get the Roush on.

97 Thunderbird 4.6L LX /w Sport Package
24k B&M Cooler, 1" lowered, Steeda UD Pulleys, Dynomax cat-back, J-mod, 3.73's, PI intake, PI cams, 03 GT MAF/Tube, SCT tuned - Gone but not forgotten.
MAMN12 Drag Racing Team [email protected] In need of updated times.
Silver95Bird is offline  
post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-23-2017, 06:01 AM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 62
I am not sure how to I check the injectors with a test light. Would that be using a standard 12v test probe connected to the electrical terminal to check for on/off? Is there a procedure I can refer to?

I have a scanner and have checked the "live data" several times. The short term fuel trims range from -3 to +3 fluctuating back and forth with most being close to 0. As the engine gets hot the fuel trims get higher which at least one "professional" thinks is causing the rich condition.I just changed the t-stat and are currently flushing the cooling system. Long term fuel trims are also high, in the 20's but I have not driven the car much so those may not have adjusted.

O2 sensors seems to be working (2 new ones) but one of the post cat sensors is slow to record any value. MAF value is 0.02 lbs / sec. I can't find any reference if that is good or not. I installed a new MAF early in this process which did not correct the situation.
ranco is offline  
post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-23-2017, 09:58 AM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
S4gunn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SF, CA
Age: 40
Posts: 2,581
Garage
OEM 8 pcs. noid light set 27161 - Read Reviews on OEM #27161


As with people cleaning their old, decrepit MAFs and declaring them "good", I suspect your cleaning of the fuel injectors did NOT solve the issue.

My TCCOA iTrader Rating: (44 / 100% w/ 50+ transactions)

24 Hours of Lemons 2017 Sear Pointless Organizer's Choice
2018 Upgrade: does your TBIRD make Fritos? Mine does
http://goo.gl/csaet4
S4gunn is offline  
post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-23-2017, 01:55 PM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 62
Wow - a Noid light. Never heard of such a thing. But I am getting A Noid. (lol).

I am not experiencing a rough idle and I have no acceleration issues or any other performance issues. The car accelerates and runs the highway at speed with no problems. That would seem to tell me the injectors are not the problem, but...

One mechanic said the injectors might not be closing completely and therefore causing a rich condition, hence the rec to use injector cleaner. From the tutorial it does not seem the Noid test would show that. (I would like to add that I don't use cheap no name gas, usually Sunoco or Gulf, and I get mid grade fill up every month.

I just made a hour run on I-95 mostly steady at 65 mph and the short term fuel trims were in the range between -4 and +4 with occasional peaks to 6 or 7 +/-. At least when I could look at the scanner. Long term fuel trims dropped to +/- 12 -15 from 24 and 25 readings. Early in the run the fuel trims would spike upon deceleration (coasting) at low speed roads leading to interstate and decrease back to +/- 3 with steady speed or acceleration. ECT was reading 204-206 at 65 mph with AC on. I checked for codes after the run and there were no stored codes however there were 6 pending, 3 each of rich bank 1 and rich bank 2, which has been the case all along. I recorded the data but can't find my connector cord to download the scanned info.

In case you are suggesting I did not clean the MAF, it should be noted the MAF was replaced with a new one with the "matched" housing, not just the hot wire sensor.

A continuing saga. Hopefully this will be resolved soon and someone else can benefit from the info.
ranco is offline  
post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-28-2017, 06:07 AM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 62
It seems that I found the problem causing the 0172 and 0175 codes - a bad PCV valve. Although it was replaced early in this process, apparently the aftermarket one was not adequate. I have run the car numerous times since changing to Motorcraft with no codes. Fuel trims appear to be normal.

HOWEVER I decided to flush the cooling system and change the t-stat to address the possible heat issue and found the vent tube from the radiator to the Degas bottle(the small diameter line) was cracked and actually broke off during the process.

Next question- other than tbird, Cougar and Mark VIII are there any other rad's that will fit? I have read about the 03 Cobra but I don't think I need to go that radical. The local yard is having a sale on the 4th so I might be able to pick one up cheap.
ranco is offline  
post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-28-2017, 02:32 PM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
S4gunn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SF, CA
Age: 40
Posts: 2,581
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranco View Post
It seems that I found the problem causing the 0172 and 0175 codes - a bad PCV valve. Although it was replaced early in this process, apparently the aftermarket one was not adequate. I have run the car numerous times since changing to Motorcraft with no codes. Fuel trims appear to be normal.

HOWEVER I decided to flush the cooling system and change the t-stat to address the possible heat issue and found the vent tube from the radiator to the Degas bottle(the small diameter line) was cracked and actually broke off during the process.

Next question- other than tbird, Cougar and Mark VIII are there any other rad's that will fit? I have read about the 03 Cobra but I don't think I need to go that radical. The local yard is having a sale on the 4th so I might be able to pick one up cheap.
TIL I learned that some people call the coolant overflow tank a degas bottle. Thanks for htat.

I've always thought of radiators like I thought of condoms and HDDs -- some items are better of being bought new.
Unless you've found an all copper/brass unit that merits a rebuild, you are better off buying a new aluminum+plastic tank radiator instead of pickup up another used one from the JY of questionable repute. I had one that seemed perfectly adequate (didn't leak) but crud on the inside made it so that while it would sufficiently cool a V6, it couldn't deal with the cooling demands of a V8.

You can physically fit a much bigger Griffin universal all aluminum radiator under the hood but you'll need to fabricate custom brackets and in the case of an automatic, you'll also need to add a separate transmission cooler. It's cheap enough (certainly cheaper than a new Cobra rad).
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/gri-1-26242-x

My TCCOA iTrader Rating: (44 / 100% w/ 50+ transactions)

24 Hours of Lemons 2017 Sear Pointless Organizer's Choice
2018 Upgrade: does your TBIRD make Fritos? Mine does
http://goo.gl/csaet4
S4gunn is offline  
post #17 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-29-2017, 06:08 AM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 62
Thanks - I checked Griffin but found another source- Radiator Express that has an all aluminum radiator made to fir 94-97 T bird that has trans cooler built in. Their cost is $219.

Not to sound maudlin but with recent medical bills and associated costs I need to be budget conscious. If I can find a decent "used" one for $25.00 I will need to try that. If not I may just go the extra money for an aluminum on, but the 20 year old original in my 97 would still be just fine if that small hose connection had not broken. Often times you can find junked cars with brand new radiators as a result of someone trying to fix a bad head gasket or cracked head /block with a new rad.
ranco is offline  
post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-29-2017, 09:28 AM
PostWhore
 
T6Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,715
I would powerflush any used radiator. Also, be sure to use the factory squeeze-on clamps. I saw an interesting bit on an auto repair show where he claimed the worm clamps put on a lot of pressure in one spot, which is not good for plastic waternecks.

Al

97 T-Bird LX 4.6 - 80k miles
94 Supra TT Auto - street/strip car
04 CVPI- Brenda's car - 76k miles
Previous Fords:
95 T-Bird LX 4.6 - fully optioned, owned 15 years, 220k miles
96 Cougar XR-7 4.6- Brenda's car, owned 11 years, 187k miles
88 T-Bird 3.8 - first T-Bird, owned 5 years, 206k miles
T6Rocket is offline  
post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-29-2017, 04:40 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

Moderator
 
Grog6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Harriman, TN
Age: 56
Posts: 9,869
Garage
If you don't lube the clamp so that it slides on the rubber easily, all clamps will do this.

Usually there's coolant all over everything, but not always; just be aware.

You can have two tight spots and gush fluid out two other spots if you do it wrong.

FWIW, The stock clamps will eat the fancy aftermarket silicone tubing, you have to use clamps made for such tubing; they have a smooth inner surface.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
Grog6 is offline  
post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-29-2017, 08:32 PM
Kind of slapped together
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Bossier City, LA
Age: 63
Posts: 4,810
Quote:
Originally Posted by T6Rocket View Post
I would powerflush any used radiator. Also, be sure to use the factory squeeze-on clamps. I saw an interesting bit on an auto repair show where he claimed the worm clamps put on a lot of pressure in one spot, which is not good for plastic waternecks.

Al
Yah.

I over tightened the one on my 1991 Cougar; the upper neck broke right at the clamp, like I had cut it.

(I have a new radiator; but by putting the hose back on and moving the clamp, I was able to keep driving.)

RwP

Fuelly
RalphP is offline  
post #21 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-01-2017, 08:35 AM
4th Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 213
ranco,

I've got my original 1995 radiator that you can have if you want. I bought a new one (#432344 / $127) from Advance and installed it in December 2015. Probably didn't need to, but I had been pestered by a small leak for a couple years and decided to change it before a thousand mile trip. Bought the replacement before removing the old one to save time. As it turns out, I think it was just the petcock that was leaking. Probably an easy fix so I just put it in the box and up on the garage rafters. I had the cooling system flushed in May 2011 at the Ford dealership. I don't know if '95 and '97 are a direct swap. Free if you want to fetch it.

Jim
Jim3inVirginia is offline  
post #22 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-03-2017, 02:48 PM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 62
Thanks JimJim. AS I understand 94-97 Birds and Cougars are the same if 4.6 as is the 93-98 Mark VIII. I just got back from Watkins Glen and will check the junk yards tomorrow. If I don't find one the is usable I will take you up on your offer. I'm about 1.5 hours away from Alexandria. I am actually going to try "repairing" the original radiator by threading the small hole where the hose connection broke with an 1/8 pipe thread tap and then insert a 1/8 inch pipe nipple with some pipe dope or JB Weld. The plastic tank wall is approx 3/16 thick at the point where it broke so I might be able to get a reasonable amount of thread. The system operating pressure is 16 psi and JB Weld is rated for 900 psi. GOT NOTHING TO LOSE so I will try but only in the drive way. A lot less work than changing out the rad. I will report back if it works or not.
ranco is offline  
post #23 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-03-2017, 07:41 PM
4th Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 213
OK, PM me if you want the rad. Hour and a half one way is a bit of a drive. I drive 95 though MD at least once a month. Maybe I can meet you partway.
Jim3inVirginia is offline  
post #24 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-04-2017, 05:37 AM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 62
Thanks again. Sorry I misread your User Name Jim 3.
ranco is offline  
post #25 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-08-2017, 01:18 PM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 62
Oh well. It seems the PCV was not the problem. I replaced the year old Fram with a new Motorcraft and the excessive vacuum is still present. I disconnected the hose from the air inlet to the driver side valve cover and plugged it. Codes have been absent for over a week. Fuel trims are observed to be in the normal range. However, if you place a finger over the short rubber hose attached to the driver side valve cover and hold for 1-2 seconds and then remove, you will hear a loud sucking sound. Way more vacuum than normal.

In my mind, this explains the too rich condition. The MAF is sensing "x" amount of air entering the intake system and the PCM is sending "X" amount of fuel to match the amount of air. The excessive vacuum is drawing off part of that air intended for combustion causing the rich condition.

If I pull the dipstick just slightly out of the tube the amount of vacuum at the valve cover returns to normal. I'm thinking a blockage somewhere but cannot find one in either the PCV hose or the "make up" air tube that I disconnected.

Could EGR be a culprit?

My radiator repair is working so far but additional testing is needed. I will post on that separately.
ranco is offline  
post #26 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-09-2017, 05:36 PM
4th Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 213
ranco,

I think that's normal. The vacuum that the intake manifold pulls on the right side through the PCV valve transmits through the crankcase and to the left side, replenished by air pulled through the hose connecting the left side valve cover fitting to the air cleaner outlet tube. Vacuum on the left side fitting should match the vacuum on the PCV valve. Should still be a closed system with controlled volume of air that passed through the MAF sensor.

Jim
Jim3inVirginia is offline  
post #27 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-10-2017, 05:36 AM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 62
Hi Jim,
The amount of vacuum seems unusually high but I need to find my vacuum gauge to measure it for meaningful results. I also noted that if I disconnect the vacuum line to the EGR valve there seems to be no vacuum, BUT there is vacuum to the solenoid. When that hose is disconnected, the engine idle increases slightly. More avenues to explore.

Thanks for the rad and comments.
ranco is offline  
post #28 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-10-2017, 09:00 AM Thread Starter
2nd Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 62
Found my vacuum gauge. 7 inches of merc at open hose on left side valve cover.

The vacuum at EGR vacuum line fluctuated with on - off type of reading between 0 and 3.5 inches. No gradual increase just 0 to 3.5 and immediately back to 0.

I read 22 inches at vacuum line to solenoid. I can't find any spec's to compare these readings to.

Info please?
ranco is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the TCCoA Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome