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post #1 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 12:47 PM Thread Starter
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Looking for 350-400 rwhp

Hello,

So I have done a little research into buildiing a motor for these horsepower numbers searching other forums, mostly mustang, but wanted to get your guys imput. I will leave the question pretty general. What is the best way to get that kind of power in our cars without putting forced induction on it. Can this be done with heads, exhaust, internals, and the like? Also I am in cali so I have smog to deal with. Anyone in cali that has done something like this that is good to go through smog as well?
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post #2 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 12:54 PM
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Not on a 2V. Forced induction is the way to go on a 2V. Even a 4.6L 4V it's hard to get those 350-400rwhp numbers without forced induction. Those are really high numbers for a NA motor, because you're talking about 450 hp at the crank which is more than what even a new Mustang puts out with a 5.0, 4V, variable valve timing and so many more innovations.

Better to plop down 3k on a supercharger setup, it's the only way to go for those kinds of numbers.
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post #3 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 12:54 PM
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It won't happen NA with the 2V, what you need to even get 300 at the wheels certainly won't pass smog. Save up for a blower and take it off during inspections.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ikutoisahobo View Post
Not on a 2V. Forced induction is the way to go on a 2V. Even a 4.6L 4V it's hard to get those 350-400rwhp numbers without forced induction. Those are really high numbers for a NA motor, because you're talking about 450 hp at the crank which is more than what even a new Mustang puts out with a 5.0, 4V, Direct Injection, and so many more innovations.

Better to plop down 3k on a supercharger setup, it's the only way to go for those kinds of numbers.
The 5.0 uses port injection, only the newest 2018 is getting dual(direct/port). The VVT plays the biggest role in the 400+ numbers.

-Matt

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post #4 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 12:58 PM Thread Starter
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What kind of hp can stock internals take?

And lets say I do heads, nothing crazy just a little improvement, and internals that should not mess with smog if I take the supercharger off during smog testing correct?
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post #5 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 12:59 PM
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Plan on getting a set of Trick Flow heads- then add in what you can afford.

Whats your budget? And why stay NA?

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post #6 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 01:00 PM Thread Starter
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What is it that really messes up the smog. Would cams do it?
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post #7 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 01:00 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck95 View Post
Plan on getting a set of Trick Flow heads- then add in what you can afford.

Whats your budget? And why stay NA?
I just like the idea of all motor. But if thats not possible I dont mind the blower.

As far as budget 3-5 grand. Of course cheaper if possible, but I dont mind spending the extra money for reliability. I want reliable power.
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post #8 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Hall View Post
What is it that really messes up the smog. Would cams do it?
Yes, you'll never pass the sniffer test with lumpy cams, and additionally you'll need longtube headers(not shorty or midlength) to take advantage of the scavenging the cams allow, and there is no way those will pass CA smog, exhaust alterations before the cats are a BIG no no.

The internals generally seem to be able can handle just up to 400 rwhp on boost before connecting rods perforate the block, 350ish is definitely safe and reliable. You'd want two tunes, one a NA tune for smog purposes, and another one with the supercharger installed.
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post #9 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 01:41 PM
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My junk makes 348 at the wheels @ 6500rpm, with VP E-85.

But it has a big cam, big intake, big compression, big heads and big cubes.

Pump E-85 for fuel. Street driven, still. But why?

Any more HP and you lift the engine into a higher rpm range, that I was trying to stay out of. Trick Flow had an advertisement in Race Pages, (the NMCA magazine)
that 5.3L, 4.6 engine made 518 HP and 417 ft/lb torque @ 7000 rpm.

This probally will not pass a smog check.

I'll try to post the ad on the TCCOA facebook page.
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post #10 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 02:34 PM
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post #11 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 02:38 PM
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OOOhhh! Impresive.

Nice 3" headers. Wow that's a lot of flow.

Mods? Yea, I got mods ...
Air silencer delete, warp drive, dilithium crystals, flux capacitor, Slingshot Rubber band power adder, Moonshine & Gas, Leaf Blower Supercharger, Hamster Wheel & Hamster, Energizer Bunny generating 1.21 gigawatts, Mr. Fusion® Home Energy Reactor, hover conversion and a sextant celestial navigation system (The original GPS)
Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto
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post #12 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 03:39 PM
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If Oscar gets his heap together and on the road we may see about the best an N/A 2v 4.6 with PI heads has to offer...

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post #13 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 04:24 PM
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Thanks for pulling up that ad.

GM's HP and torque should be higher and at a higher RPM.

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post #14 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 04:25 PM
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post #15 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 06:51 PM
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Just put a 3.5 ecoboost and a t5060 in it.

It's pretty much a direct swap. All you have to do is custom fab everything. While you're at it please make a good write up so I can do it next.
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post #16 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk Monkey View Post
OOOhhh! Impresive.

Nice 3" headers. Wow that's a lot of flow.
What you been smoking Monkey? 3" inch exhaust not 3" headers lol! Besides that's a nearly 50 cubic inch bored and stroked motor over a 4.6 so it should do something.

One bad ass set of cams in it too.

Steve
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post #17 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 10:29 PM
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I was with trunk monkey- I figured they were using 3" collectors.

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post #18 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck95 View Post
I was with trunk monkey- I figured they were using 3" collectors.
They are 1 5/8 headers and may be 3" collectors. Then a 3" exhaust. They sure aren't 3" headers.

Regardless it made very good power.

Was that in a Mustang??

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Cougar ET-Stock 4.6 shortblock/Stock PI headswap Bullitt NA 12.94 @ 105+
Nitrous 11.75 @ 114 MPH

2008 Ford Powerstroke 6.4 TT F250 4X4 Supercrew: 12.82 @ 105 MPH

"IN MEMORY OF MY FRIENDS JOEL BENDER 1979-2006", JOHNNY LANGTON 1975-2011, and MICHAEL VIVERETTE 1953-2013"
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post #19 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theterminator93 View Post
If Oscar gets his heap together and on the road we may see about the best an N/A 2v 4.6 with PI heads has to offer...
LOL!! I'll probably never see it ROFL!!!

I've done had one heart surgery and another associated surgery and have yet to see his done and mine's almost ready.

It would be interesting to see though.

Steve
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"There's a bad, built NA 4.6L COMING Spring-Summer 2018"

Elite member of the Halfshaft snapping, Auburn eating, Tranny crunching, Piston Melting, Tire lifting, 500+ lb ft Torque Club.

Cougar ET-Stock 4.6 shortblock/Stock PI headswap Bullitt NA 12.94 @ 105+
Nitrous 11.75 @ 114 MPH

2008 Ford Powerstroke 6.4 TT F250 4X4 Supercrew: 12.82 @ 105 MPH

"IN MEMORY OF MY FRIENDS JOEL BENDER 1979-2006", JOHNNY LANGTON 1975-2011, and MICHAEL VIVERETTE 1953-2013"
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post #20 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-11-2017, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by 1MTNCAT View Post
What you been smoking Monkey? 3" inch exhaust not 3" headers lol! Besides that's a nearly 50 cubic inch bored and stroked motor over a 4.6 so it should do something.

One bad ass set of cams in it too.
I'll never tell ya what I've been smoking

Yea, yea, you know what I meant ... 3" exhaust. My bad. I didn't type it that way.

But yea, wow, those are beefy cams.

Theirs: .625/.625 lift, 252/256 .050 duration, 113 LSA
1MTNCAT: .550/.550 lift, 234/238 .050 duration, 113 LSA
Mine: .536/.540 lift, 228/235 .050 duration, 114 LSA

For yours I pulled the cams from your gallery/garage and looked up the Comp Stage 3 Stats. http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=969&sb=0

The difference is you guys are N/A, I've got a blower.

Mods? Yea, I got mods ...
Air silencer delete, warp drive, dilithium crystals, flux capacitor, Slingshot Rubber band power adder, Moonshine & Gas, Leaf Blower Supercharger, Hamster Wheel & Hamster, Energizer Bunny generating 1.21 gigawatts, Mr. Fusion® Home Energy Reactor, hover conversion and a sextant celestial navigation system (The original GPS)
Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto
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post #21 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-11-2017, 10:35 AM
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https://youtu.be/PYRgbNCusBE

here is what 367 wheel horsepower looks like

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post #22 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-11-2017, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk Monkey View Post
I'll never tell ya what I've been smoking

Yea, yea, you know what I meant ... 3" exhaust. My bad. I didn't type it that way.

But yea, wow, those are beefy cams.

Theirs: .625/.625 lift, 252/256 .050 duration, 113 LSA
1MTNCAT: .550/.550 lift, 234/238 .050 duration, 113 LSA
Mine: .536/.540 lift, 228/235 .050 duration, 114 LSA

For yours I pulled the cams from your gallery/garage and looked up the Comp Stage 3 Stats. 102600 - Xtreme Energy? For 1999-up Performance Improvement Heads. Note: Can also be used in Pre 99 (P.I.) Heads with retainer to guide clearance modifications and COMP Cams® 26113 Valve Springs.

The difference is you guys are N/A, I've got a blower.
Damn Monkey. You running some good size cams in the blower car. I may have to sell mine and move up a step LOL!!!

Steve
1996 Cougar XR7 Special Edition (Street & Strip)
"There's a bad, built NA 4.6L COMING Spring-Summer 2018"

Elite member of the Halfshaft snapping, Auburn eating, Tranny crunching, Piston Melting, Tire lifting, 500+ lb ft Torque Club.

Cougar ET-Stock 4.6 shortblock/Stock PI headswap Bullitt NA 12.94 @ 105+
Nitrous 11.75 @ 114 MPH

2008 Ford Powerstroke 6.4 TT F250 4X4 Supercrew: 12.82 @ 105 MPH

"IN MEMORY OF MY FRIENDS JOEL BENDER 1979-2006", JOHNNY LANGTON 1975-2011, and MICHAEL VIVERETTE 1953-2013"
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post #23 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-11-2017, 12:07 PM
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Air silencer delete, warp drive, dilithium crystals, flux capacitor, Slingshot Rubber band power adder, Moonshine & Gas, Leaf Blower Supercharger, Hamster Wheel & Hamster, Energizer Bunny generating 1.21 gigawatts, Mr. Fusion® Home Energy Reactor, hover conversion and a sextant celestial navigation system (The original GPS)
Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto
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post #24 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-14-2017, 09:49 AM
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3-5 grand wouldn't buy you the fuel system and tuning to make the power your talking about, I believe a good 20,000 budget may be more like it

if you have 3-5 g's to spend, stick with the simple, gears trans, make the car fun. I had a low 14 bird that had about that in it, and man was that car entertaining.

Hi Steve, nice to see you are still around. Ever come over to this blue state and drag race your car? I need to get wrenching on my bird, I picked up a parts Mark 8 car that is going to further me along a little bit.

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post #25 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-14-2017, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
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3-5 grand wouldn't buy you the fuel system and tuning to make the power your talking about, I believe a good 20,000 budget may be more like it

if you have 3-5 g's to spend, stick with the simple, gears trans, make the car fun. I had a low 14 bird that had about that in it, and man was that car entertaining.
Hi Steve, nice to see you are still around. Ever come over to this blue state and drag race your car? I need to get wrenching on my bird, I picked up a parts Mark 8 car that is going to further me along a little bit.
Just getting it back together now Joey. Sometime the next couple of weeks it will be going back in. All my old numbers will be falling like rocks after that. Will have to do some testing and tuning once its in. Planning to make a fall run at Cecil if they have the fall event that they have annually.

Planning on attending a few other fall racing venues as well. Interested in seeing how the "Cat" will like having an actual built motor instead of a stocker. Should be fun.

I may bring the Mountain Mule down to tow the Car and send it down a couple passes too!
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"There's a bad, built NA 4.6L COMING Spring-Summer 2018"

Elite member of the Halfshaft snapping, Auburn eating, Tranny crunching, Piston Melting, Tire lifting, 500+ lb ft Torque Club.

Cougar ET-Stock 4.6 shortblock/Stock PI headswap Bullitt NA 12.94 @ 105+
Nitrous 11.75 @ 114 MPH

2008 Ford Powerstroke 6.4 TT F250 4X4 Supercrew: 12.82 @ 105 MPH

"IN MEMORY OF MY FRIENDS JOEL BENDER 1979-2006", JOHNNY LANGTON 1975-2011, and MICHAEL VIVERETTE 1953-2013"
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post #26 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-14-2017, 03:36 PM
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The engine I built will at most put down 300-310 wheel with a good tune. It has head work, cams, higher compression, and some other stuff. It wont pass Jersey emissions which is easier than Cali. Unless you go forced induction i dont know how youll do it, and to even push 400 wheel you should build the bottom end of the engine. maybe some ported PI heads, HiTech Stage 2 cams, Kooks mid lengths and a true dual system will get to your number, but I would be worried about the emissions side because those cams have a decent idle to them alone.
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Stacy: 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

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post #27 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-14-2017, 04:48 PM
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Until Ford comes out with a 50-state swap kit with the Coyote engine, the answer is still GM E-ROD.

If you insist on a 400HP CA-emissions legal Ford product, the cheapest solution is likely as follows:
1) Sell tbird
2) Buy 2011 Ford Mustang GT (I'm seeing as cheap as $14K, more typically ~$20K)
https://cargur.us/hZTtX

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post #28 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-14-2017, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
Until Ford comes out with a 50-state swap kit with the Coyote engine, the answer is still GM E-ROD.

If you insist on a 400HP CA-emissions legal Ford product, the cheapest solution is likely as follows:
1) Sell tbird
2) Buy 2011 Ford Mustang GT (I'm seeing as cheap as $14K, more typically ~$20K)
https://cargur.us/hZTtX
Or get a wrecked 2011-14 mustang GT and do a coyote swap using the parts off of it. Itll take a while to say the least but it would be smog legal and make the power.

Stacy: 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Ellie: 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end
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post #29 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-15-2017, 09:14 AM
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Location: Syskesville MD
Age: 33
Posts: 2,893
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Originally Posted by 1MTNCAT View Post
Just getting it back together now Joey. Sometime the next couple of weeks it will be going back in. All my old numbers will be falling like rocks after that. Will have to do some testing and tuning once its in. Planning to make a fall run at Cecil if they have the fall event that they have annually.

Planning on attending a few other fall racing venues as well. Interested in seeing how the "Cat" will like having an actual built motor instead of a stocker. Should be fun.

I may bring the Mountain Mule down to tow the Car and send it down a couple passes too!
ya buddy. I forgot you have a 6.4, I have nightmares about them. They do make power when the engines are not failing. Are you racing over at Cecil more, or somewhere else?

1995 Ford Thunderbird 4.6 LX - SC wheels, enlarged rear sway bar, full sound system, cut mufflers, PST 1 1/8" rear bar, Eibachs, Mark 8 LCA's, Al housed 3.55 gearset, cut mufflers
2011 BMX X5 Xdrive50i - BMS Stage 1, Cut Muffler
2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7L-Her stock DD
1984 Ford F250 6.9 IDIT - head studs in progress
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post #30 of 76 (permalink) Old 08-15-2017, 09:15 AM
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JoeyICU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Syskesville MD
Age: 33
Posts: 2,893
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote Jr. View Post
The engine I built will at most put down 300-310 wheel with a good tune. It has head work, cams, higher compression, and some other stuff. It wont pass Jersey emissions which is easier than Cali. Unless you go forced induction i dont know how youll do it, and to even push 400 wheel you should build the bottom end of the engine. maybe some ported PI heads, HiTech Stage 2 cams, Kooks mid lengths and a true dual system will get to your number, but I would be worried about the emissions side because those cams have a decent idle to them alone.
how much did this build cost, to put a number on the project for the OP. Not including all the support stuff to go with it.

1995 Ford Thunderbird 4.6 LX - SC wheels, enlarged rear sway bar, full sound system, cut mufflers, PST 1 1/8" rear bar, Eibachs, Mark 8 LCA's, Al housed 3.55 gearset, cut mufflers
2011 BMX X5 Xdrive50i - BMS Stage 1, Cut Muffler
2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7L-Her stock DD
1984 Ford F250 6.9 IDIT - head studs in progress
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