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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 10:59 AM Thread Starter
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Rebuild or replace?

My '95 v8 has been misfiring like crazy as of late and I decided to check out why that may be. Pulling the plugs, I found white carbon residue on all the plugs, and despite no real buildup, it appeared they were getting really hot. I also noticed oil on the cyl #6 and #8 plugs and upon further inspection, confirmed a light coating of oil on top of the pistons. Considering this engine has at least 130k on it and is leaking from nearly every conceivable gasket, my question to you guys is whether this engine is worth rebuilding or should I just try and find another engine? I'd really like to have a late model p71 (for PI top end and COP setup) or 5.4 in it, but if rebuilding is a better option, then I'll go that route. Thoughts?

Also, it would appear my input and tailshaft seals are leaking pretty bad. Is this something the trans needs to be disassembled to replace or it just a rubber press in piece like most axle seals?

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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 11:27 AM
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Replace it.

See: http://forums.tccoa.com/7-engine-4-6...p-article.html

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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 11:32 AM
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Tail shaft seal I believe can be replaced easy but the input shaft isnt. The pump cover will have to be pulled off with a slide hammer to put the seal in correctly. About the engine, should be easily rebuild-able but that may be more time and cost more. Guys here arent typically ones for 5.4s and I believe there and clearance issues with both the hood and the shock towers since the engines deck height is higher, pushes everything up and out. I have a 4.6 from a crown vic in my car now thats all built up so you can go that route, if you leave it a stock engine itll be a direct swap, though youll have to modify the passenger coil pack mount to fit with the updated timing cover if you just want to drop it in. you will have to transfer the Tbird oil pick up and oil pan over though.

First: Stacie, 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Second: Ellie, 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end

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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 11:42 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the quick reply. I've prolly read that article a dozen times in trying to figure out what I'm gonna do with the car. I also poked around for info on the 5.4 swap which seems more trouble than its worth considering the engine's lacking performance and it would seem there isn't a whole lot of info here on making the COP setup from the later engines work. Car isn't meant to be a track monster, just a cruiser. Stockish engine with some 3.55's would do me just fine. Truth be told I'd love to do a big single turbo, but I know for certain I don't have the money nor the expertise to make that happen.

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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 11:45 AM
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4.6 dohc time..
Pretty strait forward install and will have all the power you want..
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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 11:48 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote Jr. View Post
Tail shaft seal I believe can be replaced easy but the input shaft isnt. The pump cover will have to be pulled off with a slide hammer to put the seal in correctly. About the engine, should be easily rebuild-able but that may be more time and cost more. Guys here arent typically ones for 5.4s and I believe there and clearance issues with both the hood and the shock towers since the engines deck height is higher, pushes everything up and out. I have a 4.6 from a crown vic in my car now thats all built up so you can go that route, if you leave it a stock engine itll be a direct swap, though youll have to modify the passenger coil pack mount to fit with the updated timing cover if you just want to drop it in. you will have to transfer the Tbird oil pick up and oil pan over though.
Thanks for the info! Good to know something on this bird might actually go smoothly. What year did you pull your engine from? Did you end up swapping over the sensors and stuff or did you have the splice the new sensors into the old harness? As for hood clearance (not that it'll matter) I was always a fan of engines sticking out of hoods and stuff. I know there are a lot of guys here that are vehemently against such barbarism as to cut holes in hoods, but my car already looks like shit. What's another hole?

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Originally Posted by 94badbird View Post
4.6 dohc time..
Pretty strait forward install and will have all the power you want..
That's true enough, but power isn't really the end goal for me. I'll have to see what pops up when the time comes to actually do the work. I kinda feel like a 4v would be wasted on this car considering how shit shape its in. Either I'm looking in the wrong place, or there just aren't an abundance of good engines around me in North Jersey

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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 11:55 AM
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The 5.4 is a SHIT engine. It's not the holes in the hood, it's the 50 lbs of extra mass on the nose of an already front heavy chassis and no more power(and less potential to make more) than a 4.6

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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 12:06 PM
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The bottom end of the engine is most likely fine. 130K is nothing for a 4.6. What is most likely happening is the valve guides in the heads are shot, causing it to burn oil. I would say a PI head swap will most likely resolve your issues, and give you a nice performance boost at the same time. While this can certainly be done in the car, if the engine is leaking from the oil pan gasket as well, now would be a good time to pull the motor to reseal everything, which will also make the head swap a lot easier.

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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 12:23 PM
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I used an 03. Youll need to drill and tap a new hole for the second coolant sensor or splice them together. Youll have to transfer your plenum and TB assembly, EGR, fuel rail, exhaust manifolds, and oil dipstick tube to make the top end work which isnt hard at all, most of that stuff will be coming apart to hold the engine on a hoist. The Crank position sensor and Cam position sensor were used from the 2003 engine because the are the same. Use your stock fuel injectors because they and the new ones are both 19lb but the new ones have a different plug. I saw you were thinking about going turbo, with how these cars are set up itll be alot of trouble, and since you dont seem to be looking at making this car a complete racecar it may be more trouble than its worth for you.

First: Stacie, 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Second: Ellie, 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end

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Fourth: 1990 Tbird SC, GT40 5.0 mated to m5r2, BBK long tubes, motor out the hood, drift car.
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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 12:37 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
The 5.4 is a SHIT engine. It's not the holes in the hood, it's the 50 lbs of extra mass on the nose of an already front heavy chassis and no more power(and less potential to make more) than a 4.6
Yeah, I've found that by reading the old posts. And here I was wondering why there was so little info on 5.4's in the MN12...

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Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
The bottom end of the engine is most likely fine. 130K is nothing for a 4.6. What is most likely happening is the valve guides in the heads are shot, causing it to burn oil. I would say a PI head swap will most likely resolve your issues, and give you a nice performance boost at the same time. While this can certainly be done in the car, if the engine is leaking from the oil pan gasket as well, now would be a good time to pull the motor to reseal everything, which will also make the head swap a lot easier.
Yeah, the pan, oil filter housing, front and rear main seals, valve covers, prolly the heads too somewhere are all leaking oil. If nothing else, would need all new gaskets. There's so many options still available right now though and considering the last set of PI heads I saw were as much as a whole engine, its all a wash. New heads, plus a master gasket set, plus all the supporting stuff...still gonna be pricey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote Jr. View Post
I used an 03. Youll need to drill and tap a new hole for the second coolant sensor or splice them together. Youll have to transfer your plenum and TB assembly, EGR, fuel rail, exhaust manifolds, and oil dipstick tube to make the top end work which isnt hard at all, most of that stuff will be coming apart to hold the engine on a hoist. The Crank position sensor and Cam position sensor were used from the 2003 engine because the are the same. Use your stock fuel injectors because they and the new ones are both 19lb but the new ones have a different plug. I saw you were thinking about going turbo, with how these cars are set up itll be alot of trouble, and since you dont seem to be looking at making this car a complete racecar it may be more trouble than its worth for you.
So basically the same as the Explorer engine swap linked earlier? And yeah, I'd love to take a powerstroke takeoff turbo and put it where the airbox is, but I have neither the knowhow nor the funds to make that work on top of also having to sort out this ailing engine. Besides, I just sank some 600 bucks into this true duals setup and still haven't even gotten the finishing welds done. Would be a shame to throw all that down the toilet for a pipe dream (heh, i make joke).

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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 12:43 PM
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Theres no room to route the exhaust up front with the A/C system and lower coolant hoses in their current place, and with those moved youd still have to dump the down pipe out in the front because there isnt enough room to fish it back. You could try going underneath the car but then youll have no ground clearance. A turbo on a 4.6 car is not for the faint of heart, to say the least.

First: Stacie, 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Second: Ellie, 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end

Third: 1997 Dodge Ram 1500, thirsty daily.

Fourth: 1990 Tbird SC, GT40 5.0 mated to m5r2, BBK long tubes, motor out the hood, drift car.
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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 01:06 PM Thread Starter
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Theres no room to route the exhaust up front with the A/C system and lower coolant hoses in their current place, and with those moved youd still have to dump the down pipe out in the front because there isnt enough room to fish it back. You could try going underneath the car but then youll have no ground clearance. A turbo on a 4.6 car is not for the faint of heart, to say the least.
Right? Was thinking of routing the piping back over the engine, but like you said there's no room to fish a 3" pipe around the engine and trans at the firewall. Ground clearance was initially a concern due to the plan of putting it on SCP coilovers at SOME point, so its becoming less and less realistic.

I've also thought it would cool to slap a new 2.3t up front and give it a Turbocoupe vibe, but those engines (the mustang ones) are really f'n expensive for what they are. Then I thought, what about a 1J/2J? 3.5k for a good one, then all the supporting mods, standalone, blah blah blah... Um...old 289/302? Wrong mounts, bolt pattern and tough to get one in good shape that hasn't been built for racing already. Coyote? Custom K-frame, oil pan, none of the electronics play nice, etc. (I've been following some of the really cool 5.0 builds on here and MMFF). I kinda gave up on this being a "nice" car. I'd rather it be comfortable, capable and sound good at this point.

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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 01:06 PM
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Don't forget, with a 95 you will need to find fuel rails/lines, vacuum lines, intake tube, PCV lines, EGR tube and a few other bits off a 96 or 97

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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 01:11 PM
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Im planning on a 2j at one point dont beat me to it lol. But that would have problems too, youd have to cut the firewall and push it back at least a few inches so the front accessories would clear the radiator. These cars arent easy to mess with, 4v 4.6s are fun and will fit, youll have to get a tune and lengthen parts of the 2v harness though.

First: Stacie, 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Second: Ellie, 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end

Third: 1997 Dodge Ram 1500, thirsty daily.

Fourth: 1990 Tbird SC, GT40 5.0 mated to m5r2, BBK long tubes, motor out the hood, drift car.
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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
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Im planning on a 2j at one point dont beat me to it lol. But that would have problems too, youd have to cut the firewall and push it back at least a few inches so the front accessories would clear the radiator. These cars arent easy to mess with, 4v 4.6s are fun and will fit, youll have to get a tune and lengthen parts of the 2v harness though.
This guy beat you by about 11 years


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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 02:46 PM
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This guy beat you by about 11 years

Rb30 then, lol.

First: Stacie, 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Second: Ellie, 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end

Third: 1997 Dodge Ram 1500, thirsty daily.

Fourth: 1990 Tbird SC, GT40 5.0 mated to m5r2, BBK long tubes, motor out the hood, drift car.
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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 03:10 PM
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How about:

Quad Turbos!!





Pretty much any engine mod beyond exhaust and CAI mods needs a tune.

PI engines tune differently than NPI, and DOHC is even more different.

Thank $diety for value files, lol.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
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post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 05:12 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
How about:
Quad Turbos!!
Now there's a reference from the stone age, lol. Not gonna lie would be cool to see that, but never gonna happen on my car, hahaha!

Thank you guys so much for the replies. I see there are some differences in opinion here, all of which are valid, reasonable options. Unfortunately there is no clear path to take until I start pricing things out which it looks like will be a chore in and of itself. Since price is a major concern here, it is quite likely that a replacement NPI will be the cheapest (and most difficult to find in reasonable condition), while the rebuild may be the most expensive up front since all the cost comes in parts. However, I would prolly get the most mileage out of a rebuild with a hone, rings, likely valve guides as was suggested may be an issue, and bearings all being high wear items that I won't want to have to touch again in the lifetime of the car. I will be doing all the work myself, eventually, so labor costs are not so much an issue. I am still as confused as ever with which direction to take...

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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 05:25 PM
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IMO, rebuild is the worst option unless you are doing a buildup at the same time. These engines are very stout and don't wear out unless they are starved, so good doners are aplenty for far less cost and frustration than a rebuild.
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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 06:15 PM
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Since you mention doing all the labor yourself, it wouldn't be completely stupid to rebuild it. If you weren't doing all the machining and labor yourself then I'd DEFINITELY suggest a PI engine, they are not expensive at the pick a part. But I'd do a reseal on one of those as well no matter what, if you're putting any used engine in, whether it leaks or not, a reseal is the best insurance.
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post #21 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 06:17 PM
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I've disassembled three of these so far; if I had it to do over, I would have just inspected it and reassembled it.

They don't wear out unless you don't change the oil, or fry the top end with a fram filter.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
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post #22 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
How about:

Quad Turbos!!





Pretty much any engine mod beyond exhaust and CAI mods needs a tune.

PI engines tune differently than NPI, and DOHC is even more different.

Thank $diety for value files, lol.
100% dissagree..ive done so many diff Boltons with these 4.6s ..any intake mod tb,manifold ,plenum ect ..even nos with a good control box didn't need a tune..
I ran my pi swapped car untuned with Boltons for 2 years then sold it running perfect still..a pi swap should be tuned buuuut can be ran without ..lol I ran my 32v swap untuned for months..ran great,lol ..chances are though with the tune you can squeeze out a tiny extra hp from the simple boltons.
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post #23 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 08:59 PM
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Yeah, I'm sure you did all those things.

It may actually have ran. Ford is pretty good.

To work Well is another thing altogether.

There's ~10hp in just getting the factory combo tuned; if you do the 02 GTmaf and a dual exhaust with an x or h pipe, you can see a 20hp improvement over stock.

Regardless how you change things from there, other than adding a new intake, cams, or new heads, you are not going to improve HP from there; you've hit it's max.

When you change those things, it will need a tune, or it will detonate and destroy itself.
But then it's not stock.

At this point, little you do could surprise me at all.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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post #24 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 09:59 PM
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Yeah, I'm sure you did all those things.

It may actually have ran. Ford is pretty good.

To work Well is another thing altogether.

There's ~10hp in just getting the factory combo tuned; if you do the 02 GTmaf and a dual exhaust with an x or h pipe, you can see a 20hp improvement over stock.

Regardless how you change things from there, other than adding a new intake, cams, or new heads, you are not going to improve HP from there; you've hit it's max.

When you change those things, it will need a tune, or it will detonate and destroy itself.
But then it's not stock.

At this point, little you do could surprise me at all.
Do you know why the 02 GTmaf is superior to the stock maf? My guess is it may be due to the interior design where the air passage is. If so, I wonder if the mods I've done on the air passage way on my previous 4.6 birds is similar.

What I did is modify the plate by cutting it to make it triangular shaped instead of a square. Thereby, supposedly tweaking the velocity somehow. The reason I did so was because when I bought my first '95 bird in 2000, an internet search on these cars led me to the site of a guy in Germany who had experimented with different shapes of air passage ways on the factory maf. He concluded the triangular shape was superior, but I don't remember how he came to such findings, and it's been so long, the site must have disappeared because I've never been able to find it.

If it turns out the 02 GTmaf has an air passage similar to the oem ones I've modified, I'd be real happy to know it.

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post #25 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 10:08 PM
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As was said before, 130k on a decently maintained 4.6 is nothing. The explorer block I'm putting in mine has 180K on it and the crosshatching was still visible on the cylinder bores. All you probably need is a refresh. Pull the engine, put a new front main and rear main on, change all the sensors while it's out (really, why wouldn't you)? New intake gaskets, etc, and bolt on some PI heads (or go big and get Trick Flows), and have it really run nice after a tune.

Or... You could get the big bore/stroker boss block from FRPP, put some trick flow heads, good cams, headers, and all the goodies and have over 400hp at the crank. https://lmr.com/item/M6009B53/1996-2...ker-shortblock

97 Thunderbird LX (The GT Bird)
2003 Explorer WAP block with Modular Head Shop "street ported" heads and Stage 2 PI NA cams, 75mm Accufab throttle body, C&L upper intake plenum, Kooks 1.75" primary/3" collector headers, 2.5" full exhaust with mid mount Magnaflow dual in/out muffler, 24lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, Tuning from Don @ www.lasotaracing.com, CAI that feeds from fenderwell. Jmod, 3.73:1 TL in Mark VIII carrier, Mark VIII aluminum LCAs, 93 Mark VIII driveshaft, PBR brakes (soon to be Cobras), 18x9 wheels with 35mm offset, 255/40/ZR18 Tires, Front and Rear strut/shock bracing, GR-2 shocks, Eibach 1.5" springs, 1989 SC front and rear sway bars.
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post #26 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-02-2018, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
As was said before, 130k on a decently maintained 4.6 is nothing. The explorer block I'm putting in mine has 180K on it and the crosshatching was still visible on the cylinder bores. All you probably need is a refresh. Pull the engine, put a new front main and rear main on, change all the sensors while it's out (really, why wouldn't you)? New intake gaskets, etc, and bolt on some PI heads (or go big and get Trick Flows), and have it really run nice after a tune.

Or... You could get the big bore/stroker boss block from FRPP, put some trick flow heads, good cams, headers, and all the goodies and have over 400hp at the crank. https://lmr.com/item/M6009B53/1996-2...ker-shortblock
Lol, apparently the part where money is a concern was sorely overlooked. But yeah, I'm doing the research now to see what all everything is going to cost. The engine is going need to come out either way, so I may get started on that soon, but if the budget doesn't allow for any of the aforementioned options, then it'll finally be time to say goodbye to it. I've gotten so frustrated with it that any time I want to spend money on performance or aesthetics, I always find something else wrong with the car. Like I said before, I've got an exhaust system I've been bugging MadMikeyL about for nearly a year that still isn't finished because I keep having to fix stuff instead...
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post #27 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-02-2018, 10:10 AM
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Lol, apparently the part where money is a concern was sorely overlooked. But yeah, I'm doing the research now to see what all everything is going to cost. The engine is going need to come out either way, so I may get started on that soon, but if the budget doesn't allow for any of the aforementioned options, then it'll finally be time to say goodbye to it. I've gotten so frustrated with it that any time I want to spend money on performance or aesthetics, I always find something else wrong with the car. Like I said before, I've got an exhaust system I've been bugging MadMikeyL about for nearly a year that still isn't finished because I keep having to fix stuff instead...
The majority of my post was a "cheap" fix.

PI swapping with junkyard parts is cheap and easy. If you pull the heads with cams from anything BUT a Mustang, they're going to cost you $200 or so tops. Same with the intake, but the issue with the intakes is they do age, so you may want a new one, but even then they're only $200 or so. All the gaskets, sensors, etc that you should replace while it's out and easy to reach are maybe another $200 tops. So for say $600, you can have a nicely refreshed engine. Yes, you'll need a tune, and that ads money, but in the long run, it's cheaper than a car payment, and gets you more fun out of the car. I've got about $3000 into my motor swap with Kooks headers, Accufab throttle body, enlarged intake, ported PI heads/cams and an aluminum shortblock. But, once again, that's cheaper than a new car.

The big bore motor was just a "dream big" thing.

97 Thunderbird LX (The GT Bird)
2003 Explorer WAP block with Modular Head Shop "street ported" heads and Stage 2 PI NA cams, 75mm Accufab throttle body, C&L upper intake plenum, Kooks 1.75" primary/3" collector headers, 2.5" full exhaust with mid mount Magnaflow dual in/out muffler, 24lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, Tuning from Don @ www.lasotaracing.com, CAI that feeds from fenderwell. Jmod, 3.73:1 TL in Mark VIII carrier, Mark VIII aluminum LCAs, 93 Mark VIII driveshaft, PBR brakes (soon to be Cobras), 18x9 wheels with 35mm offset, 255/40/ZR18 Tires, Front and Rear strut/shock bracing, GR-2 shocks, Eibach 1.5" springs, 1989 SC front and rear sway bars.
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