4.6 DOHC in F100 - Rattling sound in engine, video link attached - Help please! - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-07-2018, 03:50 AM Thread Starter
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4.6 DOHC in F100 - Rattling sound in engine, video link attached - Help please!

To all guys on here, have a question regarding a noise when running.

Am in the process of installing a '93 DOHC in a '74 F100, using as much MKVIII parts as possible (IFS, IRS, 4R70W).

Last November, was able to start the engine for the first time after (partially) rebuilding it.

Done on the engine:
- Heads removed
- Valves surface lapped
- New valve stem seals
- New lifters
- New chains and tensioners
- All new gaskets
- 5W30 synthetic oil
- Engine put together using assembly lube
- Oil pump packed for proper priming
- Engine had oil pressure almost immediately after starting
- New plugs Used Motorcraft or ACDelco on everything.

Haven't touch the short block itself. I drive the car up to Norway after i bought it (1200 Miles), no noises or smoke, engine was running fine. Only small rattling sound coming from the chain tensioners at start-up, that's now fixed btw.

Transmission:
- New flexplate
- New TC
- New TC nuts
- New filter & oil (Mercon V)

All electrical sensors new, no codes found when doing the KOEO tests. I have only run the engine briefly as the cooling system was not finished yet. Also only the cats installed, no exhaust system yet.... Haven't done the KOER tests, didn't want to run the engine too long.

I have just uploaded the video to YouTube: https://youtu.be/1gfSVhduZKg

In the video (45 seconds in), i rev up the engine a bit and when the revs drop there is a rattling / knocking sound? It disappears completely when at idle speed. Around 58 second i rev it up again slightly, same sound that disappears at idle.

Am currently offshore and reading every noise related thread on here to see what it could possibly be, now at page 137..... Still 120 pages to go....

Hope its something simple as a collapsed lifter... not a rod bearing or worse.... Was able to locate the sound, around cylinder 8 more near the bellhousing area. Have shortly listened to the head using a screwdriver near my ear, couldn't pinpoint it.

As soon as i get back in March i am going to do some more investigation but was hoping that one of you guys might be able to tell what it could be from experience.

Thanks in advance, Willem Holman

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- '74 F100 - '64 Thunderbird - '05 CLS350 - '17 Model S 75D - '97 Bayliner Capri 2052
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-07-2018, 05:27 AM
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Sounds exactly like my buddies that had a bad rod..
Might be lucky and have it be the flexplate ,videos are deceiving some times..
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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-07-2018, 07:55 AM Thread Starter
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Hi 94badbird, thanks for your reply.

Flexplate, TC and RC nuts are new, couldn't find anything wrong with the new flexplate. Have heard on other forum that it sounds like a collapsed lifter / something in valve train. Was hoping nobody would mention rods....

I will do some investigation when i get back and update the thread.

Thanks Willem
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-07-2018, 11:02 AM
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That's lash adjuster. Rod noise is it's loudest under load and at certain RPMs, the ticking sound sticking around after you released the throttle is something rod knock wouldn't do.

Also, rod knock generally won't make itself known until the engine is fully warmed up, and the opposite is true of the lash adjusters. Oil is thicker cold, cushioning a worn bearing, while thicker oil has a harder time pumping up the lash adjusters. This noise is actually pretty normal on modular engines, and inevitable with heavier weight oils(mine ticks on warmup with the 5w40 I run, but also had it with 5w30 on my old engine during the winter), but it typically goes away once the engine is warmed up, unless the lash adjuster(s) are severely gummed up.
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Last edited by XR7-4.6; 02-07-2018 at 11:14 AM.
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-08-2018, 12:16 AM Thread Starter
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Hi Matt, thanks for your reply.

Makes sense to me what you are saying, especially as it was cold in November here in Norway, around 5 Degrees Celcius. Currently running 5W30 full synthetic, but the oil was cold.... Al the lifters are new, have ordered 2 new ones from Summit and also valve spring compressor (2V 3V & 4V):

Stallion ST-126 4V V8, 2V V8 and 4.0L SOHC V6 Valve Spring Compressor - 303-567 303-581 303-452 Alternative

Going to do some more investigation and will update the thread with the findings.

Thanks Willem

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- '74 F100 - '64 Thunderbird - '05 CLS350 - '17 Model S 75D - '97 Bayliner Capri 2052
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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-08-2018, 12:49 PM
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Oh, in that case brand new (and used bled) lash adjusters need some time to pump up. I'd do three or four clear flood starter primes and then let it start normally, letting the engine idle up to operating temperature, and repeat a few times if the noise persists before proceeding with any replacement.

FYI You don't need a spring compressor to service them, you can pop the followers off by twisting a large flat blade screwdriver in the space between between the lash adjuster and follower, while the cam lobe is on base circle. And to reinstall, "pull" the follower back on the adjuster by prying(not as bad as it sounds) on the hump of the follower and cam lobe(again on base circle, I put a rag between the screwdriver and lobe to prevent possible scoring, and use a screwdriver with a smooth round body, not the hex type). Sounds backyard mechanicy, I know, but I picked this technique up through Ford service training as an acceptable procedure, I've done it on every 4.6 head I've had.

-Matt
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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-08-2018, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
Sounds backyard mechanicy, I know, but I picked this technique up through Ford service training as an acceptable procedure, I've done it on every 4.6 head I've had.
I totally agree with this method; It's scary how little spring pressure holds these in in stock form.

Stage 3 heads might need the factory way, (using the accursed valve spring tool,) but that's just masochistic on a stock engine.

There's ~65lbs holding it in; but like XR7-4.6 said, don't score anything.

A nylon prybar will work just as well, but you have to get it in there.

I don't think you have to mess with that; a new engine is always noisy.

BUT: were the tensioners plastic or metal? The ones bolted in, that move the slides around...



This is the BAD part; there's no ratchet mechanism, and the chains whip around more. (this is a 2v, yours is slightly different.)

Got a pic of the front of the engine with the valvecovers off?

If you used the plastic ones, and it doesn't go away, I'd get metal ones.

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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-08-2018, 02:46 PM
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It looks like his motor is from a 93-96 Mark VIII(DIS valve covers/rear fed intake), should have the metal tensioners unless they were replaced for some reason

-Matt
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-08-2018, 10:19 PM
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Very interested to see more pictures/video of this when you have the rattle fixed
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-09-2018, 05:56 AM
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It's hard to tell but does it go away after it's warmed up?
I had a 32v that when cold almost sounded like a knock when cold and when you revved it the knock got more prominent and once the rev died down the knock did too but a little slower and you could hear it clearly for a second after the rev..i never did find the cause and it ran like that since I bought it (could not hear it when bought because of open headers) but I had it over a year and sold it running just fine..
I listened to the video carfully...im gonna have to agree with Xr7..
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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-09-2018, 08:22 AM Thread Starter
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@XR7 4.6:

Thanks for that info, have already bought the compressor tool. Am going to do another DOHC build, in a 40's Business Coupe so it will come in handy! I will follow your procedure when doing the next start. If it is still too cold in March when i get home (in Norway), then i will heat new 5w30 oil up in front of the heater in the house and fill the engine with that.

To be honest, i haven't bought a "brand name" oil but it is full synthetic 5W30. Also have the correct filter installed with the anti-drawback valve in it.

Yes, this is a '93 DOHC. I actually like the shape of the rear intake and i have enough clearance to the firewall to work on the throttle body.

@Groc6:

I bought a complete new timing set (chains, gears and tensioners). The new tensioners had the pin in it, think that that means they have the ratchet mechanism. I believe the set was from Cloyes, i know it was not the cheapest set! Have attached pic after installing the heads and timing. Hope you can see the pic.
@scottjohnston :

I have a build-thread on Modularfords.com which i am update regularly:

http://www.modularfords.com/threads/...-pics-amp-info

I didnt post the link before as i thought it might upset people when they see that i have destroyed a MKVIII, i am not being ironic here btw.... The MKVIII was a driveable car but was not what i wanted. I bought it when it wasn't running and in bad shape, think it would have gone to the scrapyard not long after. It was already converted to coils also... Wanted to use the enigine, tranny, ifs, irs, as much as possible. Saved the seats as well, going to make chairs as seen on Top Gear!

@94badbird :

Haven't run the engine much longer than what you see in the video as the cooling system was not finished yet. Have now almost finished my AC system, can install my new radiator after. I have driven the car from Holland to Norway and the only sound it made was at start-up, the chain tensioners. That's now gone btw.

Thanks all for the answers, will update as soon as i have more info!

Cheers Willem
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- '74 F100 - '64 Thunderbird - '05 CLS350 - '17 Model S 75D - '97 Bayliner Capri 2052

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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-09-2018, 12:11 PM
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lash adjuster


if it was a rod knock it would be there on initial start.

worth a try

drive fast!
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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-10-2018, 03:08 AM Thread Starter
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Iamcaper,

Thanks for the links. The screwdriver method would have saved me almost $200,- bucks.... i already ordered the tool...

Sure hope its a lifter issue. I believe the intake & exhaust lobes are the same (same for the 2 intake and the same for the 2 exhaust) on a 4V, so it be easy to spot if only 1 lifter is faulty.

Thanks Willem

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- '74 F100 - '64 Thunderbird - '05 CLS350 - '17 Model S 75D - '97 Bayliner Capri 2052
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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-10-2018, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamsterdam View Post
Iamcaper,

Thanks for the links. The screwdriver method would have saved me almost $200,- bucks.... i already ordered the tool...

Sure hope its a lifter issue. I believe the intake & exhaust lobes are the same (same for the 2 intake and the same for the 2 exhaust) on a 4V, so it be easy to spot if only 1 lifter is faulty.

Thanks Willem
replace them all and hope for the best. I replaced mine from ebay cheap .they are widely used and relatively cheap. same lash adjuster is used in the 4.7 mopar small v8.

if this is a Lincoln engine I have a good set of rods out of Lincoln engine I have swapped out for h-beams.

lets hope its a lash ajuster

drive fast!
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-11-2018, 12:32 AM
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Holy cow - great build thread over there. Great use of a Mark in my opinion. Good cars but REALLY fun to watch your progress.
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post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-12-2018, 12:30 AM Thread Starter
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@ iamcaper:

All the lifters are new, bought a complete set for the rebuild. This is the Lincoln '93 Intech engine yes.

@ Scottjohnston:

Thanks! Am updating the thread regularly. should be finished with the build this summer, i hope....... If this turns out to be a lifter issue then we are back on track!

Thanks Willem

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- '74 F100 - '64 Thunderbird - '05 CLS350 - '17 Model S 75D - '97 Bayliner Capri 2052
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post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-27-2018, 01:29 PM Thread Starter
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Hi to all that have been posting in this thread. I have been working on identifying the noise and have not gotten to the bottom of it...

What i have done:

- Installed Transmission without TC, just to make absolutely sure the noise came from the engine and not the tranny. Ran engine for 30 seconds, noise still there so tranny ok. Installed Transmission with TC, new Hayden tranny cooler and filled up with oil.
- Drained the engine oil (5W30 from a nameless brand, only ran couple of minutes after rebuild...), filled up with Castrol 5W30. The "old" oil was completely clean when drained from the engine.
- Removed all 32 hydraulic lifters and inspected for damage and tried to compress them. All lifters felt the same, solid and not possible to compress.
- Inspected both heads / valvetrain / cam lobes etc. Could not see any visible damage or marks or other.
- Finished cooling system, filled up with coolant.
- Installed IMRC vacuum control valves and vacuum system.

Connected exhausts to Aluminum flex-pipe and routed outside my tent/garage to be able to run the engine for longer periods. Bought an engine stethoscoop so i could listen better as to where the noise comes from.

- Ran the engine for longer periods and made sure it was at normal operating temperature.

After a while i sort of located where the noise is the "loudest". The noise is the loudest at Cylinder 4 and i can hear it most clearly when i have the end of the stethoscoop on the bracket of the IMRC vacuum control valve.......
As if that is not confusing enough: The noise is louder when the IMRC's are open (vacuum disconnected from IMRC valve). The noise is present at all RPM's when you listen with the stethoscoop. When listening "normal", its only when letting of the throttle. So what i am thinking is that there is an issue with the Cylinder 4 inlet valve / lifter that is getting used when the IMRC's are open (above 3000 rpm).

Unfortunately i didn't have more to to investigate before having to return to work (now offshore) so i will have to do more checks when i get back. I have bought 2 spare lifters so going to change them out and do some checks.

Another question i have:

- Should the engine keep running when at idle speed and the IAC valve electrically disconnected? Or should the engine stall due to lack of air going in the engine? I am asking because another issue i have with the engine is that it doesn't respond immediately when i come off the throttle. It takes a couple of seconds for the RPM's to return to idle speed. It just doesn't feel right......
As a test, i disconnected the Idle Air Control valve and when it's disconnected, the engine responds better to the throttle...... But the idle speed is a bit lower.... If the IAC valve is completely closed when electrically disconnected, it could mean i have a big vacuum leak somewhere and thats causing the engine to "run on a bit" after i come off the throttle. If that makes sense?!

In the back of my mind i am thinking that the above mentioned 2 issues are sort of related to a problem in the intake manifold or IMRC's... So i have ordered new Mahle gaskets (MS16275 & MS16276) for the intake assembly. Think i will take if off to inspect, just in case.

Thanks Willem

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post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-27-2018, 01:45 PM
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- Removed all 32 hydraulic lifters and inspected for damage and tried to compress them. All lifters felt the same, solid and not possible to compress.
That's not good; they should all move. They need to be replaced.

I have three sets here, all bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamsterdam View Post
As a test, i disconnected the Idle Air Control valve and when it's disconnected, the engine responds better to the throttle...... But the idle speed is a bit lower.... If the IAC valve is completely closed when electrically disconnected, it could mean i have a big vacuum leak somewhere and thats causing the engine to "run on a bit" after i come off the throttle. If that makes sense?!

Thanks Willem
You probably have a vacuum leak; the engine should Barely run with no IAC connected, and that's set by the screw on the blade of the throttle body.

It should be almost closed, so it is probably not the problem.

What you are describing is called 'dashpot' adjustment, and it's done in the EEC.

So it's likely a vacuum leak.

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post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-19-2018, 09:06 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Grog6,

Sorry for my late reply on this!

I am going to check the lifters again, using a vice this time. Have got 2 spare also.... I have read a lot about soaking them / or not, before installing. MKVIII Service Manual says to soak them in engine oli before installing, whats your thoughts on this?

I have ordered new Mahle gaskets for the intake and also for between the runners (plenum?). I guess i will just close the IAC hole completely, if it starts we know it must be a vacuum leak somewhere!

Will keep updating in this post.

Thanks Willem

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post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-20-2018, 02:05 PM
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As much as I hate to say it .. I would consider that sound "normal" for an engine with that many miles - but not one that has had head work done recently.

Do you still have a Check engine light / obd test port to check for codes ???

If you plug the IAC and it still runs you definitely have a vacuum leak somewhere - the IMRC's are also known to leak where the butterfly shaft passes through the body. A smoke test would be a great way to find problems. If your engine doesn't run with the IAC unplugged - don't mess with anything else to attempt to make it run without it ( the throttle body blade set screw especially ). The IAC itself can also get "sticky" and hang the throttle open for a bit after you let off the gas pedal.
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post #21 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-20-2018, 08:38 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Dan,

Yes the sound is a "bit alarming" as the heads have been off, new guides, tensioners, sprockets and chains. Also all valves cleaned and lapped and all new lash adjusters....... Yes i can still check for codes, have the Innova 3145 i believe for this. All the codes i currently have are to do with the EGR and the purge cannister (which i removed).

I am gonna do some proper tests again with the IAC (New Motorcraft) and see if there are any vacuum leaks. I did buy the IAC Restrictor plate on Ebay, maybe its worth the 15 Bucks......

Will update if i find something

Thanks Willem

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- '74 F100 - '64 Thunderbird - '05 CLS350 - '17 Model S 75D - '97 Bayliner Capri 2052
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post #22 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-20-2018, 10:47 PM
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Ouch - I hate to spend money on a part unless I'm about 90% its the actual cause of failure .. it should be cheap enough to pick up gasket material to make your own blank plate - the oldschool trick for an EGR block off was to use an aluminum beer can, don't see why it wouldn't work in the IAC also. LOL
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