Power Limits for Aluminum Block and Cast Crankshaft - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-15-2018, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
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Power Limits for Aluminum Block and Cast Crankshaft

Not a new topic, but what is the current thinking on the power (and/or RPM) limits for a Teksid aluminum block, and for a cast crankshaft? My 2V set-up includes these two components along with a big bore (3.700") kit and forged rods and pistons. I'm planning to upgrade cylinder heads and positive-displacement supercharger to make more power. The current assembly has done fine at 470 crank HP, but I want to move up to about 650. Rev limiter is set at 6500 RPM, and that will not change. This is primarily a street car, but it does go to the drag strip occasionally. Am I asking for trouble?

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post #2 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-15-2018, 10:57 AM
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The block will be fine, but the cast crank is going to be the weak link, if anything. Personally, I would dial the rev limit back to 6000 if keeping that crank, and make sure the tune is spot on, since with forged rods and pistons, detonation, especially at high rpms, can snap the crank, and a broken crank will likely take out everything else with it.

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post #3 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-15-2018, 11:20 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the feedback. The tune is set up to shift at 6000-6100 RPM and I typically leave it in Drive at the strip. But, when shifted manually it sometimes goes hgher and I have occasionally banged off the rev limiter. Don't see why it couldn't be lower than 6500, although I am interested to see where the power peak ends up with the new combination.

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post #4 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-15-2018, 12:29 PM
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Yeah, you would have to see where peak power is on the setup. If peak power isn't happening till 6300-6500rpms, then you will be leaving power and speed on the table to drop the rpms. If it is happening down at 6000-6200, then the safety margin would likely be worth the loss on the top end. Plus you also have to factor in where peak torque occurs, since you definitely don't want to your rpms to be much below your peak torque rpm after the shift. That would cost you more time at the track than not getting those few extra hp at the top end.

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post #5 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-15-2018, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickmckinney
Well if you are using rods and pistons that weigh less or the same as the stock stuff, the cast crank is good to above 600RHWP and no higher than 6800RPM boosted, and basically unlimited NA from what I have seen. In the NA use you want the lightest rotating assembly possible and the cast crank is better there for sure. One issue with switching is not having to get a different flywheel if yours is already a 6 bolt.
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post #6 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-15-2018, 01:47 PM
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I've talked with a pretty good engine builder out at (RPM Engine in Northern California) and a forged Cobra crank is a must for those power numbers.
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post #7 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-15-2018, 02:04 PM Thread Starter
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Presumably my pistons weigh more than the stock ones, since they are the bigger bore diameter.

I'm not against changing to a forged crank on a philosophical basis. It is just more time and money added to an already lengthy and expensive rebuild.

If I do decide to get a forged crankshaft, which supplier have people had the best luck with?

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Last edited by MikeB; 02-15-2018 at 02:14 PM.
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post #8 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-15-2018, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
Presumably my pistons weigh more than the stock ones, since they are the bigger bore diameter.

I'm not against changing to a forged crank on a philosophical basis. It is just more time and money added to an already lengthy and expensive rebuild.

If I do decide to get a forged crankshaft, which supplier have people had the best luck with?
I'd get a stock Cobra crank that hasn't been marked up because it's "professionally balanced" by swiss cheesing the crank counterweights and all that crap and have it balanced perfectly by a good machine shop in front of your own eyes.
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post #9 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-15-2018, 02:59 PM
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So how many documented cast crank failures are there exactly? Are we still going by that one viral teksid and conjecture?

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post #10 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-15-2018, 03:13 PM
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I killed a teskid once...






Although not in the way you might think.

</troll> Carry on...

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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-15-2018, 03:28 PM
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Yup, that's mostly what I'm going on! I personally have only seen 2 broken cast cranks in 4.6 applications. One was broken due to over-revving (7500rpms on a 4V, and while the teksid block was cracked, it did at least keep all the parts contained within) and the other was I bought a PI motor off craigslist for $100 that had a broken crank, pulled the heads off it, and scrapped the rest, so I have no idea what broke it. I have seen the cast crank take lots of boost, but when they do fail, it usually seems to be RPMS that does them in, so personally, if I were building a motor with plans of over 6500 rpms, I would get a forged crank. It isn't that you will necessarily break the cast one, hell when my MarkVIII was still NA I used to rev the complete stock bottom end to 7K all the time, but if that broke, I was out $300 for a used MarkVIII mtor, but if his breaks, it is going to take a lot of expensive parts with it. Considering he already has forged rods and pistons, and a big bore setup, he is into the bottom end for probably at least $5K, every last bit of which would be junk if the crank fails. To upgrade to a forged crank when he was first building it probably would have cost another $1000. To do so now will probably cost another $13-1500. Spending $1500 to ensure that you don't destroy $5K worth of parts plus having to pull everything back apart again doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. Alternatively, if it isn't in the budget to upgrade the crank, it isn't the end of the world, but I would keep everything conservative, and set the rev limit at 6000. Maybe that will be leaving a little hp on the table, but it will still be a bad-ass motor and a ton of fun.

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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-15-2018, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theterminator93 View Post
I killed a teskid once...






Although not in the way you might think.

</troll> Carry on...
I killed a teksid once...once!
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-98 Mark VIII LSC, Procharger P600b, TR3650 swap and 3.73s.
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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-15-2018, 04:33 PM
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I was curious as well since my bottom end is basically stock Lincoln 4v but it is said the crank is same but drilled to 6 bolt. I think its cast by looking but the rods are floaters and the pistons are hypereutectic according to Lincoln. I ran 6 lbs boost for a while and now I'm going NA with a 150 progressive shot.
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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-15-2018, 04:50 PM
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I was unable to find a cast crank for less than $1000.

You can find butchered cobra stuff cheaper, but why, lol.

For the rpms you are Planning to run, I'd want to go forged; I'm not, but I'm building a street car.
It may end up at 500hp before I die, but I doubt I'll break the crank.

The Eagle cranks are slightly cheaper than the rest, but I've read that's chinese steel.

I hope you find something good; I'll probably buy one too.



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post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-15-2018, 05:09 PM Thread Starter
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OK, lots of good input. And yes, I probably should have gone forged crank from the beginning, but now is the time for the upgrade if I'm ever going to do it. And yes, there is a substantial investment in the rest of the motor. So, rather than live with doubts and/or limitations, I'm going to go forged.

I lucked into a local deal for an unused, stock stroke Eagle 4340 Forged Steel crankshaft at a very attractive price. The guy has changed direction on his engine plan and no longer needs this crank. I'm going to see it and presumably bring it home tomorrow. Understand that the Eagle cast cranks have a very bad reputation. Opinions seemed to be mixed about their forged cranks. Anybody on here had one actually fail?

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post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-15-2018, 10:20 PM
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Cranks whether cast or forged are very strong, the thing that really kills them is improper balancing and harmonics at high RPMs. A stock cast crank that's been balanced perfectly might survive 600hp, but a forged one will most definitely survive. It's about reducing the chances really.

I think if you're rotating assembly is very well balanced and weighted down to the retaining clip on the pistons, then you're probably good lol.
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post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-16-2018, 08:01 AM
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I have an eagle crank and rods (forged) in my cougar since 2009.

Still running 6500 rpm shifts.

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post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-16-2018, 11:39 AM Thread Starter
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I talked to the guy who built my engine 10 years ago, and got his thoughts on crankshaft choice. Given what I'm trying to do with the new combination, he recommended forged, with Cobra OE (made by Kellogg) as the best bet. I'm negotiating with a seller on eBay for one at present.

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post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-17-2018, 07:55 AM Thread Starter
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OK, the forged Cobra crankshaft is on its way. Next question: what is the Ford part number of the correct 164-tooth, 8-bolt flexplate? Is it F249?

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post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-17-2018, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
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OK, the forged Cobra crankshaft is on its way. Next question: what is the Ford part number of the correct 164-tooth, 8-bolt flexplate? Is it F249?
No idea but here's an aftermarket plate https://www.americanmuscle.com/sr-flexplate-8bolt.html
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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-17-2018, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
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OK, the forged Cobra crankshaft is on its way. Next question: what is the Ford part number of the correct 164-tooth, 8-bolt flexplate? Is it F249?

I actually have one I've been trying to move for a while

PM inc.
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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-17-2018, 08:27 PM
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I just got one of those flex plates in the mail yesterday. I'm working on mating a coyote crank to a teksid block, from my understanding those 2 pieces are good for 1500HP.
I did see a 2015 Mustang with a centrifugal SC break the snout of the crankshaft and still drivable. It had been making 880rwhp on the dyno before the chaos ensued.
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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-17-2018, 09:37 PM
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I'd love to see this; IIRC, the snout is a different size? Something was different, I thought...

F2LE is the OG teksid blocks, first casting. (Or at least the bearing cap is, lol. I love how I jump to conclusions.)

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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-17-2018, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
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I'd love to see this; IIRC, the snout is a different size? Something was different, I thought...

F2LE is the OG teksid blocks, first casting. (Or at least the bearing cap is, lol. I love how I jump to conclusions.)

Yes, the coyote snout is different and will need to be machined to work with 4.6, also need a spacer for the flexplate I believe.
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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-17-2018, 10:29 PM
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I've been pounding on this for a bit. Yes, the snout is all wrong for 91-10 modular. I guess to accommodate the VCT, but fortunately Ford used the same bore spacing and deck height. My first attempt in assembly, I found the bearings were to tight, I did not have the thrust bearing issue resolved yet and had to have more material removed from the snout and the dampener key had to be relocated. It has been grueling, but I'm close to completion. I'm using 2013 Boss crank and rods with DSS 4.75 pistons. Lord willing, we shall see how it goes. Read ya later, Nick
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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-19-2018, 11:02 AM Thread Starter
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I would not have guessed that this combination was feasible.

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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-19-2018, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
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I would not have guessed that this combination was feasible.
Me either.

If the spacings are the same, why can't we use their intakes?
Seems like that would be do able; it's not like the pi intake is an exact match, lol.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-19-2018, 04:51 PM
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Me either.

If the spacings are the same, why can't we use their intakes?
Seems like that would be do able; it's not like the pi intake is an exact match, lol.
You can, on the 5.4L's.

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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-19-2018, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
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Me either.

If the spacings are the same, why can't we use their intakes?
Seems like that would be do able; it's not like the pi intake is an exact match, lol.
As Rod said, people have used Coyote intakes on 5.4 DOHCs, they need adapters though and the alternator and coolant crossover needs to be improvised. The port spacing is the same as it correlates with bore spacing, but the heads determine intake fitment, and Coyote heads aren't anything like PI or 4.6 4V heads.

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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-20-2018, 08:04 AM
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As Rod said, people have used Coyote intakes on 5.4 DOHCs, they need adapters though and the alternator and coolant crossover needs to be improvised. The port spacing is the same as it correlates with bore spacing, but the heads determine intake fitment, and Coyote heads aren't anything like PI or 4.6 4V heads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by racecougar View Post
You can, on the 5.4L's.

I forgot about the head differences; I knew they didn't bolt up.

I'll have to be careful, I'll give miller a new lease on life, lol.

Then he might find out why you don't cut what little frame we have, lol.

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Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
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