97 PI Swap issues - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-17-2018, 03:23 PM Thread Starter
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97 PI Swap issues

I'm on the verge of getting a 97 that's had PI heads off a 2001(ish) F150 swapped on. PI intake etc. Everythings there. Guy had installed some Trickflow stage 1 cams also. Car comes with an extra set of PI heads and the stock heads.

Car starts and runs just fine. Idles good. But it's way low on power. purs, firing on all 8. It's been a while since I drove a 4.6 but this ain't right. It doesn't come alive untill about 3k rpm but it's not impressive.

I've read as much as I can find, especially about T-bird 4.6 PI swaps and I wonder if the timing isn't way off or that the cams weren't degreed properly.

Hoping for some sound advice on where to start. Also once it's dialed in I'll need a tune correct? And what can I expect running a true dual exhuast and it has some sort of free flowing set of mufflers.

Thanks!


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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-17-2018, 03:57 PM
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For one thing if it hasn't been tuned yet for the new cams & heads that could be a big part of it.
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94 Cougar XR7 - 00 Mustang 4.6, JBA headers, Marauder converter, MN12 Perf exhaust, Jmod
05 Dodge Magnum R/T AWD - SRT8 exhaust manifolds, CC 268 cam, milled heads, custom tune, SLP cat back
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-17-2018, 04:25 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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With PI heads an NPI block, and bigger than stock cams, you will definitely need a tune.



The stock intake doesn't work well over ~4200rpm, so it's one thing.

The other big deal is the valve timing; PI cams are close to the intake valve, so aftermarket cams are likely to be closer.

I'd check the valve timing closely, and piston clearance as the intake opens.

You will probably need 24lb injectors for that combo; stock ones will be close to max at WOT.
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Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-17-2018, 04:30 PM
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I agree, I would degree the cams & make sure they were installed correctly. One, or both could be either retarded or advanced.
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94 Cougar XR7 - 00 Mustang 4.6, JBA headers, Marauder converter, MN12 Perf exhaust, Jmod
05 Dodge Magnum R/T AWD - SRT8 exhaust manifolds, CC 268 cam, milled heads, custom tune, SLP cat back
72 Chevelle - EFI 396, T56 Magnum 6spd, 100 shot N2O
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-17-2018, 06:07 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeB View Post
I agree, I would degree the cams & make sure they were installed correctly. One, or both could be either retarded or advanced.
This was my suspicion although it seems obvious I'll need a tune.

I'm in Europe. I don't think anyone out here is capable. does a 97 offer an ODB based tuning option or are the Eproms?

Who do you guys know of or like for tuning?

What could a guy expect for RWHP and Torque once this setup is dialed in? And crank? Mostly looking for smiles per burnout.

thanks


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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-17-2018, 06:24 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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You can tune all our MN12's by adding a chip; the 94-97 4.6l are tunable through the OBDII port as well, but IDK about the 5.0l, or older cars for sure.

I use Don Lasota, of Lasota Racing for tunes; but I also bought an Xcal2 and PRP programming package, so I can write and modify my own tunes.

The whole package is <$1000; but the learning curve is steep, and failure is measured by broken parts.

Buying a tune is easier.

You need a means of datalogging these cars to really know what's going on with them; OBDII makes life much easier.

An Xcal2 with Livelink is what I use, but there are tons of Cheap smartphone/bluetooth readers that give everything except programming ability.

As the EEC's are all encrypted, the programming part is what's expensive.
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Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-18-2018, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroBird View Post
I'm on the verge of getting a 97 that's had PI heads off a 2001(ish) F150 swapped on.
So, you have not gotten the car yet?

Unless you're getting it for a steal, might want to steer clear of someone else's "Frankenstein". Getting it right might involve going over every part on the engine until you know what you have.

Al

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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-20-2018, 06:19 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by T6Rocket View Post
So, you have not gotten the car yet?

Unless you're getting it for a steal, might want to steer clear of someone else's "Frankenstein". Getting it right might involve going over every part on the engine until you know what you have.

Al
I haven't yet no. I'm working on it though. I'm kind of stuck on a number, the seller is too, it's his second time aroudn putting it up for sale. We aren't far off but I'm a little weary. Thing is, you never come across the engines PI swapped over here (Europe). Comes with an extra set of PI heads and the origional heads.

I'd be paying for the car roughly what the cams cost him. I've driven it. It would be a toy. It's not a bad car all round. It's just getting the power out.


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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-21-2018, 04:38 AM Thread Starter
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that all being said: what can I expect if I get the car and a tune and all running properly in terms of power. I read such conflicting things about the 2v!

stock bottom end. PI heads, PI intake. Trick flow stage 1 cams with a good tune should yield about 250-260hp with how much torque? Higher cr. yields more torque earlier right?

How much does the average "send us your ecu" (or is it an eprom?) tune cost? (as I'm overseas)

thanks


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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-21-2018, 09:52 AM
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250-260 HP sounds optimistic for an N/A setup. So does expecting a significant increase in torque from the stock number, but the torque peak will occur at a higher RPM. You have to increase the displacement to see a significant increase in torque.

Wow, you must be getting the car cheap!

Al

97 T-Bird LX 4.6 - 80k miles
94 Supra TT Auto - street/strip car
04 CVPI- Brenda's car - 76k miles
Previous Fords:
95 T-Bird LX 4.6 - fully optioned, owned 15 years, 220k miles
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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-21-2018, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroBird View Post
that all being said: what can I expect if I get the car and a tune and all running properly in terms of power. I read such conflicting things about the 2v!

stock bottom end. PI heads, PI intake. Trick flow stage 1 cams with a good tune should yield about 250-260hp with how much torque? Higher cr. yields more torque earlier right?

How much does the average "send us your ecu" (or is it an eprom?) tune cost? (as I'm overseas)

thanks
Depending on the cams, I'd expect at least 280-290 at the crankshaft. My former motor was a PI heads/cams/intake through stock manifolds, stock 19# injectors, underdrive pulleys, 80mm MAF, and a not so great Blue Oval Chips tune. It was dynoed at 223 HP at the rear wheels, which is approximately 270 at the crankshaft.

My new motor is full PI, with ported heads, PI intake, 24# injectors, underdrive pulleys, 80mm maf, Kooks headers, Modular Head Shop Stage 2 PI/NA cams, cams are degreed, 75mm upper intake plenum, and a tune from Don Lasota. I'm expecting close to 350 at the crankshaft due to all the mods. That'll be a shade under 300 to the wheels.

Another thing to wake the car up is put a higher stall torque converter in, and shorter rear end gears. 3.73 gears in mine are excellent.

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2003 Explorer WAP block with Modular Head Shop "street ported" heads and Stage 2 PI NA cams, 75mm Accufab throttle body, C&L upper intake plenum, Kooks 1.75" primary/3" collector headers, 2.5" full exhaust with mid mount Magnaflow dual in/out muffler, 24lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, Tuning from Don @ www.lasotaracing.com, CAI that feeds from fenderwell. Jmod, 3.73:1 TL in Mark VIII carrier, Mark VIII aluminum LCAs, 93 Mark VIII driveshaft, PBR brakes (soon to be Cobras), 18x9 wheels with 35mm offset, 255/40/ZR18 Tires, Front and Rear strut/shock bracing, GR-2 shocks, Eibach 1.5" springs, 1989 SC front and rear sway bars.
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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-22-2018, 03:50 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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250-260 HP sounds optimistic for an N/A setup. So does expecting a significant increase in torque from the stock number, but the torque peak will occur at a higher RPM. You have to increase the displacement to see a significant increase in torque.

Wow, you must be getting the car cheap!

Al
Yeah this is Europe. Domestic US cars, especially more "modern", is like your odball import in the US. I'm pretty confident in saying that in The Netherlands there can't be more than 50 of these cars. In the country. I'm talking 90-98. Not just the one year. There are NO junkyards with ANY donor vehicles anywhere. These heads were found in Germany on an F150 once upon a time. Current owner has about 5k into the swap and is sick of it because he doesn't have a competent mechanic as it's like taking your Japanese Domestic Market import to your local dealer in the US. They have no clue. To give you an idea: a regular SBC or SBF (even smog era) longblock will sell for 1k all day long, miled out.

So I've offered him about 1/6th of what the car is worth when it runs right. So that's cheap.

Define "significant" torque increase. Higher compression should yield more torque. any concrete numbers or percentage increase? Haven't tons of guys done these swaps? It's weird to me that no one has a real sense of accuracy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
Depending on the cams, I'd expect at least 280-290 at the crankshaft. My former motor was a PI heads/cams/intake through stock manifolds, stock 19# injectors, underdrive pulleys, 80mm MAF, and a not so great Blue Oval Chips tune. It was dynoed at 223 HP at the rear wheels, which is approximately 270 at the crankshaft.

My new motor is full PI, with ported heads, PI intake, 24# injectors, underdrive pulleys, 80mm maf, Kooks headers, Modular Head Shop Stage 2 PI/NA cams, cams are degreed, 75mm upper intake plenum, and a tune from Don Lasota. I'm expecting close to 350 at the crankshaft due to all the mods. That'll be a shade under 300 to the wheels.

Another thing to wake the car up is put a higher stall torque converter in, and shorter rear end gears. 3.73 gears in mine are excellent.
Trick Flow stage 1 cams. I'm kind of looking at what the motor does on it's own to start and if it's worth it to me. Later on I'd like to pull the motor and trans and put them in one of my older and lighter cars wich has a 4.11 .
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-22-2018, 08:35 AM
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So I understand it'd be expensive as hell, but how much extra does it cost to get parts shipped from the US to you? I'm guessing there is taxes/duty fees and what not, but if you NEED a part, you should be able to get one, at a cost.

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2003 Explorer WAP block with Modular Head Shop "street ported" heads and Stage 2 PI NA cams, 75mm Accufab throttle body, C&L upper intake plenum, Kooks 1.75" primary/3" collector headers, 2.5" full exhaust with mid mount Magnaflow dual in/out muffler, 24lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, Tuning from Don @ www.lasotaracing.com, CAI that feeds from fenderwell. Jmod, 3.73:1 TL in Mark VIII carrier, Mark VIII aluminum LCAs, 93 Mark VIII driveshaft, PBR brakes (soon to be Cobras), 18x9 wheels with 35mm offset, 255/40/ZR18 Tires, Front and Rear strut/shock bracing, GR-2 shocks, Eibach 1.5" springs, 1989 SC front and rear sway bars.
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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-22-2018, 11:19 AM
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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-25-2018, 04:42 AM Thread Starter
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So I understand it'd be expensive as hell, but how much extra does it cost to get parts shipped from the US to you? I'm guessing there is taxes/duty fees and what not, but if you NEED a part, you should be able to get one, at a cost.

Yes exactly that. Look at your domestic price, double it and apply the euro valuation and that's about what stuff costs me.

RockAuto finally started shipping internationally and because they do decent volume shipping is a little better but it still hurts when you remember what it was like to roll down to Autozone or even Napa and just shell out 100 bucks for a full set of front brakes or whatever.

My daily work truck is 90 c1500 and I need to rebuild the front end suspension and steering really. It's pricy but hey. So's life. Just gotta earn the dough and get on with it.

But that's also why I'm trying to get as accurate as I can with what to expect and what to do as it's all real expensive.
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post #16 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-28-2018, 06:17 AM Thread Starter
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So to close this thread.

Guy sold the car to someone else. I stuck to my number and some other schmuck bought it. Probably dodged a bullit.

Though this thread did put me in tuoch with a local and we might do business. So it's all good.

Also found a 5.4 triton procharged locally.... that could be fun too.

Thanks all!
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56 Ford Popular 302/AODE
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