Cross Breeding the Coyote Crank & Teksid Block - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-19-2018, 08:24 PM Thread Starter
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Cross Breeding the Coyote Crank & Teksid Block

Back in February, I had posted on one of MikeB's threads that I was attempting to mate a Coyote crank into a Teksid block, well it finally came about. The test car was my black with gold 96 Cougar that I took on the Epic Drive. The car had a Mark VIII engine topped with Cobra intake, degreed Cobra cams, 24 lb injectors, dual exhaust and a Blue Oval Chips tune. It eeked out 266RWHP @ 6200RPM on the dyno.

The Coyote crank snout had to be shorted and the flats for the oil pumped milled. The woodruff key had to be addressed, so it was moved back toward the oil pump. At first I had just milled out the key way to move the key back and was thinking about using JB Weld as a filler to give the some material to rest on. Jeff of Baldwin Racing didn't care for that approach so we channeled the keyway from the end of the snout to the step and made our own key. Boss 5.0 rods and DSS pistons completed the reciprocating assembly. The crank and bore yield 4.8 liters.

I topped off the engine upgrades with a head cooling kit and a KKS radiator. The hybrid motor is now complete and installed and I have been driving the car around for a couple weeks. The "seat of the pants" meter says success for the engine pulls very well to 6,500. I have yet to have the car on the dyno but will keep you informed.

Read ya later, Nick
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post #2 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-19-2018, 08:52 PM
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Nice, dude!!

Now get them to sell cranks!!


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post #3 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-20-2018, 08:42 AM
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What is the advantage for the coyote crank?

1995 SC------------------1994 SC----------------1993 LX
Black----------------------Red----------------------Grey
3.8-------------------------3.8w/bent rod---------5.0
4R70W--------------------M5R2--------------------AOD
2.4 AR in works---------2.0 Auto Rotor---------N/A
24psi----------------------15+----------------------none yet
450RWHP----------------322RWHP -------------who knows/who cares
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post #4 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-20-2018, 12:28 PM
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With so many F150s and Mustangs out there ready to be harvested, why go through this trouble to add the crank + rods to a teksid block other than to prove it can be done? Why not just start with an entire donor longblock? By going full coyote, you could start at 5.0L.

Is it to avoid all the variable valve timing drama and if you go too new, the DI drama?

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post #5 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-20-2018, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
With so many F150s and Mustangs out there ready to be harvested, why go through this trouble to add the crank + rods to a teksid block other than to prove it can be done? Why not just start with an entire donor longblock? By going full coyote, you could start at 5.0L.

Is it to avoid all the variable valve timing drama and if you go too new, the DI drama?

-g
There are other issues that make a full coyote swap more difficult, one of the biggest being no provision for a power steering pump, and I believe the placement of the alternator interferes with our frame rail, so something has to be done about that. One of the biggest problems for you and I though has to do with emissions testing. While NJ is nowhere near as strict as CA, it does do emissions testing through the OBD2 port. Ford's PATS system would require a coyote swap using a factory ECM to also use the BCM, instrument cluster, and possibly some other factory modules in the swap, otherwise it won't fire the engine, and this is not something that can be tuned out. Ford does sell the aftermarket controller for it, however even though it has an ODB2 port, it is not fully OBD2 compliant, and does not support things like EVAP and rear O2 sensors, so in any state that tests emissions based on an OBD2 scan, you can not install a Coyote into anything 96 or newer. The only solution to this is to eliminate the VVT with a kit that locks the actuators in place, but then you are giving up about 50hp on the top end, and over 100lb-ft of torque in the mid-range, at which point, the complications of the swap are no longer worth it, since you could make the same power with a DOHC 4.6 for a lot less headache. I don't think this mod is worth pulling a good running motor apart for, however if you are going to do a 4.6 performance rebuild anyway, this could be worth doing to gain a little extra displacement, and a stronger crankshaft for cheap.

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post #6 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-20-2018, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
There are other issues that make a full coyote swap more difficult, one of the biggest being no provision for a power steering pump, and I believe the placement of the alternator interferes with our frame rail, so something has to be done about that. One of the biggest problems for you and I though has to do with emissions testing. While NJ is nowhere near as strict as CA, it does do emissions testing through the OBD2 port. Ford's PATS system would require a coyote swap using a factory ECM to also use the BCM, instrument cluster, and possibly some other factory modules in the swap, otherwise it won't fire the engine, and this is not something that can be tuned out. Ford does sell the aftermarket controller for it, however even though it has an ODB2 port, it is not fully OBD2 compliant, and does not support things like EVAP and rear O2 sensors, so in any state that tests emissions based on an OBD2 scan, you can not install a Coyote into anything 96 or newer. The only solution to this is to eliminate the VVT with a kit that locks the actuators in place, but then you are giving up about 50hp on the top end, and over 100lb-ft of torque in the mid-range, at which point, the complications of the swap are no longer worth it, since you could make the same power with a DOHC 4.6 for a lot less headache. I don't think this mod is worth pulling a good running motor apart for, however if you are going to do a 4.6 performance rebuild anyway, this could be worth doing to gain a little extra displacement, and a stronger crankshaft for cheap.
That makes total sense. Now, I guess the key is if you can get the machine shop work (cutting the new keyway, etc) to be cheaper than the off the shelf forged crank.

Forged 4.6 crank $850
4.6L Crankshafts

Brand new Forged Coyote Crank $320 (assume a used takeoff would be cheaper)
https://www.americanmuscle.com/frpp-...ft-1112gt.html

WildTurkey - how many hours did your machine shop charge for the crank work?
If it was less than 2, there could be a business model there (allowing for end customer savings + reseller profits)

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post #7 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-20-2018, 03:11 PM
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I hate to nitpick, but isn't that the old style powdered metal trigger wheel on the crank?

Those are known to disappear sometimes, the steel one is pretty cheap, too.

You need a spacer or newer style crank gear to use it tho.

That's a really nice engine, I'd hate to see it full of metal pieces.

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post #8 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-20-2018, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
There are other issues that make a full coyote swap more difficult, one of the biggest being no provision for a power steering pump, and I believe the placement of the alternator interferes with our frame rail, so something has to be done about that. One of the biggest problems for you and I though has to do with emissions testing. While NJ is nowhere near as strict as CA, it does do emissions testing through the OBD2 port. Ford's PATS system would require a coyote swap using a factory ECM to also use the BCM, instrument cluster, and possibly some other factory modules in the swap, otherwise it won't fire the engine, and this is not something that can be tuned out. Ford does sell the aftermarket controller for it, however even though it has an ODB2 port, it is not fully OBD2 compliant, and does not support things like EVAP and rear O2 sensors, so in any state that tests emissions based on an OBD2 scan, you can not install a Coyote into anything 96 or newer. The only solution to this is to eliminate the VVT with a kit that locks the actuators in place, but then you are giving up about 50hp on the top end, and over 100lb-ft of torque in the mid-range, at which point, the complications of the swap are no longer worth it, since you could make the same power with a DOHC 4.6 for a lot less headache. I don't think this mod is worth pulling a good running motor apart for, however if you are going to do a 4.6 performance rebuild anyway, this could be worth doing to gain a little extra displacement, and a stronger crankshaft for cheap.
I forget where it's at, and I can't seem to find it at the moment, but I remember reading somewhere on the State of California's website somewhere regarding engine "changes" (swap). Basically, so long as the engine is newer than the engine designed for the vehicle, it's OK to use AS LONG AS all the emissions equipment for said newer engine are included with the engine swap. And of course, any emissions equipment (read exhaust manifolds, intake system, and CAT(s)) that are modified, are CARB certified.

The other thing about doing an engine swap here in California, is that it has to be reviewed by a referee. If the referee approves of the swap, you'll get a piece of paper saying so and you shouldn't have any issues at inspection time (or if you get pulled over....so long as you're not racing, lol) every other year.

Also, inspection time is only for vehicles 5yrs old and older, and every other year there after. So year 5, 7, 9, 11, etc. is how often the car will get checked. Inspection is only inspecting to make sure that all emissions systems are in place (CAT(s), EGR, IACV, etc.), there are no CELs turned on, and a scan via the vehicle's OBD-II port which goes through all functions of the vehicle. Vehicles 1999 and older, get these listed items checked AND go through the "sniffer test" as well.

IMO, doing a Coyote swap here in CA (legally) would be a cumbersome process, but it can be done. I think if I were to ever do an engine swap, it would be a built 4v-4.6L engine with a blower. Then a month or so before the sniffer test, I'd swap in my stock 2v-4.6L, re-flash the ECU, and get it done. After that, swap back the 4v engine and all its goodies, re-flash the ECU for 4v specs, and be good for two more years.

EDIT: Found it. I guess it didn't state what I wrote above, but it alludes to it. They must have updated it, or I'm remembering incorrectly. The full blown PDF. It looks like page 69 has the pertinent info related to engine swaps here in California.

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post #9 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-20-2018, 06:46 PM
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Theoretically if you lock the cams at full retard you'll match the peak numbers, which you'll not be able to get with a 4.6 based 4V for the price IMO. it'll be totally gutless on the low end of course, but that can be made up for in the usual ways(gears and stall).

The thing I have always wondered about CA referees is just how thorough they are, and what exactly is an emissions device(I've heard everything between air filter and cats but there's a lot of grey area there to me)? like would a 5.0 swapped car need to have a EVAP canister from a stock 5.0 Mustang, or does it just simply need to have a functioning EVAP canister(ie the stock one)? Same with PCM. Locking the phasers will pretty much screw tailpipe emissions since they also reduce NOx of course, but if the actual emissions aspect weren't part of the equation, would having the *wrong* PCM to run the engine with all else equal be an issue of bureaucratic semantics? Or how about return vs returnless fuel systems?

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post #10 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-20-2018, 07:34 PM
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post #11 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-20-2018, 08:10 PM
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My only thought is this could be a cool and cheap (depending on the machine work) way to throw together a 600whp capable short block, and thats if you go with an early Coyote bottom end, I see the newer ones are handling alot more. Im assuming the rods would fit too with the coyote crank, right? I know people have thrown them into 4.6s in the past but they had 4.6 cranks still.

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post #12 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-20-2018, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
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The thing I have always wondered about CA referees is just how thorough they are, and what exactly is an emissions device(I've heard everything between air filter and cats but there's a lot of grey area there to me)? like would a 5.0 swapped car need to have a EVAP canister from a stock 5.0 Mustang, or does it just simply need to have a functioning EVAP canister(ie the stock one)? Same with PCM. Locking the phasers will pretty much screw tailpipe emissions since they also reduce NOx of course, but if the actual emissions aspect weren't part of the equation, would having the *wrong* PCM to run the engine with all else equal be an issue of bureaucratic semantics? Or how about return vs returnless fuel systems?
I read in the PDF there that all emissions systems must be original to the engine being swapped in. The emissions systems ** may ** be modified only in regards to fitment issues in the engine compartment.

So for example, if I wanted to swap in a Coyote into my Bird, I'd have to retain the CATs, IACV, EGR, etc of the Coyote.

Again, all this has to get the green light of the state referee before the car is street legal.

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post #13 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-22-2018, 10:06 AM Thread Starter
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Grog6, I have 10 Coyote crank kits that have been created to put up for sale. There will be three choices of kits depending on which block you need. The crankshaft kits will have supporting hardware and bearings included. I am still working on this. All in good time.

Blown38, there are a couple of advantages. 1. You get a Kellogg forged crankshaft. 2. You get .15 liter of extra stroke, not all that much but with boring adds the block would make .2 liters and drop it in a Boss 5.0 and you would have 5.15 Liters. Stay tuned, I'm working on that as we speak.

Thank you all for your exchanges, I was considering the coyote swap a while back, but for me now, the guts will have to do.

Read ya later, Nick
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post #14 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-24-2018, 07:26 PM Thread Starter
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Here is a picture of the Boss 5.0 with the Coyote crank, Boss rods and Manley 3.700 Coyote big bore pistons. The plan is to set it up with 224 degree 459 lift cams, set at 109I/109E CL, CNC aviator heads with Livernois springs and FR500 intake. I'll be dropping it into my 95, it came with a stick trans.
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post #15 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-26-2018, 02:22 PM
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I just had a thought about the crank machining on the oil pump flats.
When I had my bilit pump gears made ( I kept breaking them when I'd launch with nitous ) they didn't cost that much I think it was $250 which I am sure you can get cheaper now days.

The people that did mine were called Boundry pump in Texas. They are some good folks, maybe you could just have them make a gear set made to accommodate the wider flats and retain the 4v pump housing. They already make the pumps for the 2v 3 v and 4 v engines so should be just having the program changed in the cnc to match the crank. It may be cheaper than the machining of the flats.
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post #16 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-26-2018, 07:28 PM Thread Starter
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The work that was done on my cranks replicated the 4.6 snout as to accept the factory or aftermarket oil pump and timing chain gear.
The modular guru's say that on higher horse power builds that billet oil pumps are recommended. I splurged for the billet Melling oil pump, head cooling mod kit and the MMR secondary tensioners.
Read ya later, Nick
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post #17 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 08:18 AM
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In that last picture in the first post. What radiator is that?

It looks a lot like the new custom Fluidyne that I had made. Is that a Griffin radiator or a Ford radiator?

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post #18 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-28-2018, 04:24 PM Thread Starter
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It's a KKS I got off Ebay for $199. I bought it in Dec. 2017, I think I mentioned it here on the sight. I ordered another but they were out and weren't able to restock till June. They are not three pass and have to spacers for the fan shroud to fit, but they work especially well when pulling a trailer and give plenty of reserve. Read ya later, Nick
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post #19 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
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Here is a glimpse of the altered Coyote crank kit to drop into the modular blocks. I am naming the kits "Thunderbolt P47" The bearings are specific to the block, so I will need to know which block to address when ordered. Connecting rods to be used are the same as 4.6 Modular and 5.0 Coyote. Pistons can be sourced through DSS or Modular Motorsports Racing. The price of the Thunderbolt P47 kit is $820 plus shipping.

Read ya later, Nick
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post #20 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 06:29 PM
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Now my sick mind is wondering if this would work in a Continental FWD block, to give that thing even more reasons to tear the AX4N to bits. But then, I've been daydreaming about a manual-swapped Continental for a while now

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post #21 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 07:04 PM
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I'm unaware of a front wheel drive manual transmission that will bolt to a 4.6; maybe you could educate us?

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post #22 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 07:38 PM
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There isn't one. But, if people can make adapter plates to make it work in a RWD application, then I figure that anything is possible with enough stubborn dedication to a bad idea. And there's nothing I like more than bad ideas.

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post #23 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
I'm unaware of a front wheel drive manual transmission that will bolt to a 4.6; maybe you could educate us?
1995-2002 continentals use a transverse 4.6 DOHC. The block is specific, not the trans

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post #24 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 08:07 PM
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What about the Taurus SHO trans? The Continental is based on the Taurus, and I know the early SHO 5-speed trans can be swapped into a regular Taurus, or even into the 96-99 V8 SHO's, so the Continental might share that bell housing.

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post #25 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 10:07 PM
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As far as I know the DOHC V8 has a bellhousing all to itself, but I've never actually seen one, just going off the wiki page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lar_V8_pattern



Still, just one of my many half-baked ideas. Like a mid-engined Ford Escort wagon...

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post #26 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-18-2018, 09:07 AM Thread Starter
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Another hurtle would be the 8 bolt flywheel.
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post #27 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-18-2018, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
What about the Taurus SHO trans? The Continental is based on the Taurus, and I know the early SHO 5-speed trans can be swapped into a regular Taurus, or even into the 96-99 V8 SHO's, so the Continental might share that bell housing.
Seems like the V8 SHOs were the Ford Duratec bell housing pattern and that's different from the Continental DOHC modular block:
2.5L/3.0L/3.5L Duratec V6
3.4L DOHC SHO V8


---
If the goal is Modular V8 -> FWD Manual transmission for a RWD Escort wagon.

Here's one way to solve it

Ford Modular or 302 V8 -> Porsche G50 transaxle
https://www.kennedyeng.com/8-cylinder-engine-list

You can make it a midengined setup.

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post #28 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-11-2019, 04:47 PM
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Hey wildturkey,

I have that same radiator ready to install in my '97, because I live in southwest texas where the heat will melt your junk before you get where you're going. What is your synopsis of that unit?
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post #29 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-11-2019, 05:48 PM
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I thought a conti V8 would boltup to a 4r70W; but there's no possible way to make a mount for the right side.

There's no bosses, and it looks different.

I spent a couple of hours looking at one I could have got for nearly free; If I'd known about the conti cams back then, I'd have jumped on it.
(Opportunity does knock occasionally. But he knocks Lightly.)

The bolt pattern looked good to me.

The "no way to mount it" was the prob.

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post #30 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-30-2019, 09:14 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djose13 View Post
Hey wildturkey,

I have that same radiator ready to install in my '97, because I live in southwest texas where the heat will melt your junk before you get where you're going. What is your synopsis of that unit?

I absolutely love it. That unit will compliment most any performance upgrades, and towing ability would be greatly enhanced to pull up to a 6x12 trailer or even another car provided the tongue weight was kept below 350lb/gross 3500lb.
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