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post #1 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-25-2018, 04:44 PM Thread Starter
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4.6 mod dohc or not

Hi folks

I'm doing my research on possible Engine and Trans Combinations for my T bird.i found my Transmission what i want to use now i want to find the perfect Engine
What i like to know is why the 4.6 DOHC is not very popular around here
,compared to Pi swaps or whole Engine swaps like Explorers etc

why is the 4v version of the 4.6 family not realy desirable ??

Is it the price or the size or the lack of Performance parts ??

or is the engine not so street friendly ??

what would be a very good combination,like 94 Mark 8 Block and maybe 03 Aviator Heads or the whole Aviator Engine

coyote swap is out of question to much dollars needed


thanks guys for the help

hoschy
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post #2 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-25-2018, 05:36 PM
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Expensive, painful, and fabrication required.

Read Matt's post:

https://www.tccoa.com/forums/30-vide...andomness.html

He went from 2V to 4V manual; it's nice.

But looks at all he went thru.

I'm copying him, but slowly.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
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post #3 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-25-2018, 07:23 PM
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I made it more complicated than it needed to be, so don’t be too discouraged from my thread. The reason 4Vs aren’t more popular is the most widely available version is the Mark VIII engine and the power gain isn’t very impressive and the low end torque is weak, you’re better off PI over Mark VIII 4V. Other issues are exhaust manifolds/headers and intake manifolds, most of which won’t clear the hood. The Aviator longblocks are great, that’s what mine is, but you’re even more limited on exhaust and intake options.

-Matt
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post #4 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-25-2018, 09:47 PM
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I have 2 MN12's with the DOHC, a Cougar with the auto and a Thunderbird with a stick. If you go to the "cars for sale" forum here on TCCOA and search DOHC, you'll see that quite a few have been done and sold thru the years. I's getting harder to find donner Mark VIIIs, but that would be the first hurdle. The hardest part of putting in a DOHC is the installation. If you have access to a lift that will help greatly, you could take it out the bottom. I don't, so I have to do it in order, 1. pull the exhaust. 2. pull the gas tank. 3. pull the driveshaft. 4.pull the transmission. 5. pull the steering shaft. 6. pull the engine. Installation is reverse steps. If you know how to eat an elephant, it can be done.
Read ya later, Nick
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post #5 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-26-2018, 04:25 PM Thread Starter
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Hi guys
First things first,thanks for your help!!!
Now let me get some more inside information.
I can get 2 Lincoln mark engines and also could get 2 aviator engines.
The question here is which one would be better mark or aviator?? I know the aviators have 300 hp from the factory with 10.0 to 1 compression ratio,I also think the cams are different compared to the mark.Is there someone who knows a little bit about if there are different or not?? Headers and intake is not my problem if I have to fab something that's fine.The real reason why I'm trying to figure out what these dohc's can do or don't is the aviator engine if I get it myself out is dirt cheap and would fit the 6r80 without major headache .The marks are a little bit more expensive but shipped to my door or I can pick one up.
What do you guys think would be the best way??

Thanks guys for trying to help me out,is really appreciated.

Hoschy
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post #6 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-26-2018, 04:50 PM
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The Aviator is definitely the better longblock, but the Mark VIII swap is definitely the best way to get a 4V under the hood to avoid excess time/money/hassles.

But ...Aviator needs a lot of odds and ends, you need a mark oil pan, Mark VIII HO oil pickup tube, 03+ headers or manifolds (93-02 heads have smaller oval ports and headers designed for them will kill flow), and the coolant crossover/thermostat/heater hose setup is a mess, and the power steering pump is in a different spot so you'll also need to make or move the high pressure and reservoir lines. I converted mine to use Mustang parts for the coolant lines and an explorer filter adapter in lieu of swapping timing covers and relocating the steering pump to the stock location(which makes filter access a piece of cake) but I had to really cobble together radiator hoses to accomplish that. You also need return fuel rails, which aren't exactly easy to find for 99-04 Cobra/Mach 1 intakes, which is really what you need to make it sing.

Unless you did a conversion your transmission is a 4R70w, not a 6R80, but either way both engines bolt up the same, both use 6 bolt flexplates.

-Matt
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post #7 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-26-2018, 05:25 PM Thread Starter
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Hi
Autsch that's a lot to take in,I guess I really got some thinking to do.
A couple months ago I got my hands on a 6r80 which is awesome,the trans is the same like what I have in my mustang daily driver,so much fun to drive.
The T bird is a 93 and just a shell so I can put in whatever I want.just trying to figure out what and the how.
Thanks' so much

Hoschy
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post #8 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 02:45 PM
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Put in a 351 Cleveland.

Quickest N/A Modular MN12.
1995 XR7-11.77 @ 113.29 (3537 lbs.)
01/31/18 PBIR
THE danner EATER
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post #9 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 10:11 PM
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That sounds too easy...get a new Ecoboost V6 and make a modern Turbo Coupe

Current poor life choices: 1991 Mercury Cougar XR7, 1998 Lincoln Town Car, 2005 Ford Focus ST, 1997 Ford Probe GT.
Previously: 2015 Focus, 1996 Thunderbird, 1998 Taurus, 1989 Escort.
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post #10 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-28-2018, 10:48 AM Thread Starter
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Hi guys
I get to the point where 351 or eco super coupe doesn't to bad at all
I have a 351W laying around,but would need machine work.finding a cheap ecoboost is not so easy.
Well I got all winter to simmer over it.

Hoschy
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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-28-2018, 10:55 AM
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A rebuild kit for a 351 is Chevy cheap, compared to a DOHC swap, lol.


Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-28-2018, 03:07 PM
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The 351 would have the best exhaust tone as well.

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PI 4.6. Bullitt intake. Stage 2 MHS cams. Kooks Headers. 4,200 ATF Speed converter. BCA Transmission. 4:10s. Tune by Supercoupes Unlimited. 245 RWHP.
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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-29-2018, 12:09 PM
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Seriously, If thinking 351 and don't mind time and a bit of $$.
The hot build I was doing for the track cars is a 351 Clever
This build uses a 351-Windsor bottom end with 351-Cleveland 2bbl heads. Makes tons of power, and It's very simple to do just have machine shop do the plugging of the coolant passage on the bottom of the heads. The new passage on intake side you can drill yourself. The intake you can get from Ford, Summit, Jegs, Speedway.....
There is a reason the parts are all available directly from ford , Hell Brodix , AFR , TFS and Edelbrock all make the heads already to bolt up no mods needed.
AS far as bottom end goes its all the same you can go as far as you want depending on how fast you want to spin it up, or how much power adder you want to put in.
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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-29-2018, 03:38 PM
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The Clevor motor was great in the 80s, but it is outdated now. The only reason that came about was because there were no good Windsor heads that at all matched the performance of the factory Cleveland heads. Now, with so many aftermarket Windsor heads that flow as well or better than the Cleveland heads, all a Clevor does now is severely limit your intake manifold options, so a full Windsor build is going to be cheaper and make more power.

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post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-29-2018, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
The Clevor motor was great in the 80s, but it is outdated now. The only reason that came about was because there were no good Windsor heads that at all matched the performance of the factory Cleveland heads. Now, with so many aftermarket Windsor heads that flow as well or better than the Cleveland heads, all a Clevor does now is severely limit your intake manifold options, so a full Windsor build is going to be cheaper and make more power.
Those sexy cleveland valve covers though...
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post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-29-2018, 04:33 PM
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Damn, that IS sexy.

And you can put your hand on the pipes, between the shock towers, lol.

Try that with a mod motor.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 02:11 PM Thread Starter
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For some reason I like the dohc idea,well is there set of cams what could be used to bring more bang to the lower rpm range ,like from a navigator,or the continental.
I have here all kinda Lincolns with dohc available,pick and pull yards are loaded
Frankenstein something together is not a big deal,what would be a good combination???

Thx
Hoschy
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post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 02:18 PM
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Most DOHC cams besides 90s Cobra ones are very close to the same spec/identical. If you want to get lower RPM grunt your best bet is degreeing them and advancing them 4-6 degrees. If you want strong low end torque the DOHC isn't an ideal choice

-Matt
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post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 03:49 PM
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Aftermarket cams are pricy, but Comp Cams sell them.

And MMR:
http://www.modularmotorsportsracing....products_id=42

The only real difference is duration, there's so much wall area, increasing lift beyond stock isn't nearly as effective.

A set of 96 Cobra cams is as good as it gets, stock.

I got a set of heads off a conti, with the XR3E cams, but that was really lucky.

You know, I found out last night that the two end ports are much bigger (volume) than the rest, without any mods; it's just the way they're cast.


Nick McKenney quote: (actually from na svt)
If you are going to go 4V find a 99+ Continental and take the heads complete. Degree the cams to 106-108 intake and leave the exhaust at 110 (the conti intake cams are bigger than the Marks), it will require a serious mod to the secondary gears to do this. Combine with a Mach 1 intake and thats as good as it gets without spending serious cash.


NA SVT: The 96-98 intake cams will make about 20 more hp than the MAch intakes (cams). The difference between the 96-98s and the 99s is only 2 deg so the power difference is also little.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote

Last edited by Grog6; 11-30-2018 at 03:55 PM.
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post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 04:34 PM
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Best thing about the 96-97 Cobra cams though? 12mm 10.9 bolts vs. 10mm TTY bolts on 98+.
Grog6 likes this.

-Matt
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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 12-01-2018, 07:00 AM Thread Starter
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Oh sh##t now I'm really hooked on that idea put a 4V in.
Thank you so much guys for the awesome response was a real pleasure as always.

Hoschy
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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 12-16-2018, 01:00 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post




Nick McKenney quote: (actually from na svt)
If you are going to go 4V find a 99+ Continental and take the heads complete. Degree the cams to 106-108 intake and leave the exhaust at 110 (the conti intake cams are bigger than the Marks), it will require a serious mod to the secondary gears to do this. Combine with a Mach 1 intake and thats as good as it gets without spending serious cash.


NA SVT: The 96-98 intake cams will make about 20 more hp than the MAch intakes (cams). The difference between the 96-98s and the 99s is only 2 deg so the power difference is also little.
Okay Guys i try to find the information what exactly need to be modified on the cams to get to the 106° centerline does somebody here got the instructions??

thx
hoschy
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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 12-16-2018, 01:10 PM
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You don’t modify anything on the cams, you adjust via the sprockets, either with aftermarket ones or keyway filing, and use a degreeing kit to find the centerlines to set the specs.

-Matt
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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 02:20 AM Thread Starter
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Ah okay thanks so much
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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 04:54 PM
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https://www.modularheadshop.com/i-24...tegory:1268206


https://www.modularheadshop.com/i-24...tegory:1268203

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 12-19-2018, 09:43 AM
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I cant find the upper set I have anywhere, but they are from MMR and are keyed for multiple offsets like the ones in Grog6 post but the kit comes with 4 gears 2 spacers and new keys.
I have continental cams in my massaged heads with the intake 3° advance and the exhaust strait up.
I went with these because my heads are cut and the block is decked so I had to adjust the cams to keep from loosing the bottom end, and I have had problems with the adjustable ones coming loose after a lot of abuse. These are a much bigger pain to set up though as you have to degree and then take apart then degree and take apart and over and over until you have it set where you want.
As opposed to the adjustable ones that you just set and clamp down, lock-tite, then recheck.
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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 12-19-2018, 05:11 PM
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Cloyes discontinued them earlier of this year. I saw that Summit racing sold them individually for $38 each back in May.
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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 03:22 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildturkey View Post
Cloyes discontinued them earlier of this year. I saw that Summit racing sold them individually for $38 each back in May.
Well modular motorsport got everything what is needed thats the good news.
Just got a very nice and clean MarkVIII engine and very nice clean 04 aviator Heads since they are the closest to the FR500 castings for less than 800$$.
Next thing i need to get is a sullivan intake , a msd mod 6 ignition and put all this together and call it the poor mans coyote build.
The only thing i am worried about is that timing procedure i*m not familiar with .Sombody ever degreed the cams on a 4V here in the forum and can give me some tips??
I got the timing tools for locking in the crank and lock the cams so far so good. i got the ford service manual but there is no word of degreeing the cams just put the dots together, but degreeing the cams is highly stressed in books about the modular engines because of stacked tolerances in the timing components.any help would be aparechiated!!!
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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 03:40 PM
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The procedure is pretty much the same as any other engine, find TDC, measure lobe opening/closing and calculate and adjust from them, and repeat. With Modulars you need to do both banks, so cylinders 1 & 6, and with a 4V you degree the exhaust cams first, as the intake cams are driven off of them. Make sure you mark the exhaust sprocket positions after you degree them, since they need to come off to adjust the intakes. You need a solid lash adjuster too for the process.


Skip the MSD junk. Stock DIS is more powerful than you'll need and 100% more reliable

-Matt
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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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The procedure is pretty much the same as any other engine, find TDC, measure lobe opening/closing and calculate and adjust from them, and repeat. With Modulars you need to do both banks, so cylinders 1 & 6, and with a 4V you degree the exhaust cams first, as the intake cams are driven off of them. Make sure you mark the exhaust sprocket positions after you degree them, since they need to come off to adjust the intakes. You need a solid lash adjuster too for the process.


Skip the MSD junk. Stock DIS is more powerful than you'll need and 100% more reliable
thanks for the heads up
i got nothing in my t bird the wiring was stock 93 5.0 pushrod all stripped because i want to run the motor of a carburetor and the 6r80 needs his own controller to work just need a tps .
As far as the timing issue is concerned i guess time to look for a video i can get this better in my head if i see a video
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