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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-29-2018, 11:48 AM Thread Starter
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Egr

hey guys first time posting here. I must say I probably spend more time on the site then any other. Extremely helpful and a lot to learn from other projects.
I have a 95 tbird (40th anniversary edition) with the 4.6 motor. Ive owned it for a cpl months and have been getting the kinks out (mostly suspension). Its throwing a code for the EGR valve so i bought a new one along with PCV Valve, DPFE sensor, rubber vacuum T, and new EGR feedback hose.
My problem is the EGR valve. Ive intalled everything but the EGR valve and feedback hose. Is there anyway to do this without pulling the motor? Ive tried taken the wiper crowl off but cant gain enough access.
Motor is strong but half the time half throttle and under can be choppy and can sometimes ping which i believe is related to the EGR.
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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-29-2018, 11:55 AM
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It is highly unlikely that your EGR valve is bad. The 94/95 4.6 gets clogged up passages all the time. You need to remove the throttle body and the elbow that connects the throttle body to the back of the intake manifold. Once you have that off, you will see a passage that the EGR flows through, that will be clogged up solid with carbon. Grab some carb cleaner and a pick or small flat screwdriver and scrape all that junk out of there. Reassemble with new gaskets, and your EGR issue will be resolved.
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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-29-2018, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
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ok thank you I appreciate the quick response. Glad i asked because I had no clue to check the passages. I should be able to tackle this tomorrow so I'll let you know how I make out.
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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-29-2018, 08:17 PM
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Well, depending on the code, the fix could be a lot of work or a wicked lot of work. You've probably used the search feature on this site. If that EGR tube is clogged like it was on my '95, wicked lot of work. From experience, don't be afraid to change O2 sensors even if the codes don't indicate that's the problem, but first thing is to clean out the carbon from the intake system per MadMikeyL's advice. Use the search feature to find photos of the instructions to help.
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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-30-2018, 07:35 AM Thread Starter
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I was afraid it might be something with the exhaust tube. I ran the codes a month ago and came up with P1407 (exhaust egr no flow), P1465 (DPFE sensor upstream hose off or plugged), P0402 (exhaust gas recirculation flow excess, P0174 ( air leaks after MAF sensor or leak in pcv valve. So far new DPFE sensor, new PCV valve and new rubber vacumm "T". I have the new EGR and hoses which i planned to swap out with the other emissions parts but got stuck trying to remove old EGR. Wasnt sure how to get to bolts holding the EGR in or exhaust tube with the motor still in car. My 40th is black/gray with red pin strip. Shes got more rust then id like to see on chassis so im probably gonna look for a roller. Would like to tackle EGR now though as the motor makes a pinging noise under acceleration which im thinking may be EGR related?
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-30-2018, 12:06 PM
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The EGR solenoid rarely fails, and is very easy to test by just putting power and ground to it and seeing if you can blow through the ports. The goal is to diagnose the problem, not keep throwing parts and money at it until you blindly stumble on the solution. Of all the EGR issues on all the 94/95 4.6 cars I have ever dealt with, one was a bad DPFE sensor, and all the others were clogged ports or a clogged tube. As for the pinging, yes a clogged EGR will definitely cause pinging. The EGR reduces the temperature in the combustion chamber, and the computer advances the ignition timing to account for that. If the EGR is clogged, the temperature in the combustion chamber does not get reduced, and the computer still advances the timing, which causes pinging. I did have a beater Cougar years ago where I didn't feel like dealing with the clogged EGR tube, so I simply turned off EGR in the tune, which will also stop the computer from bumping up the timing in those circumstances, and the car ran fine like that for years, but leaving the clogged EGR alone and not doing anything about it definitely will cause pinging issues.

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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-30-2018, 02:55 PM
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I agree the issue is most likely the tube clogged.

There's a bunch of passages that clog at the throttlebody.

After you get those clean, you'll notice you can't blow air thru the EGR tube; there's an orifice inside the tube, in between where the sensor tubes come off the EGR tube.

The sensor tubes need to be cleaned out, the EGR tube needs to be cleaned out; all until you can blow thru all of them.

(The sensor reads the pressure difference between the two small tubes, and senses flow from it.)

I'd suggest a piece of vacuum hose, to keep your lips clean.

The EGR tube is almost impossible to remove, or I'd suggest removing it to clean it out.

Find a replacement BEFORE you break it, lol. They were unobtanium, last I looked.

I used Chemtool B12 and brake parts cleaner; brake parts cleaner is hard on O2 sensors, so find something more friendly, unless you remove it.

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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-30-2018, 08:08 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the responses. I didnt get to my car today, things came up. Probably wont untill next weekend. Im not familar with tuning threw the computer plus dont have the equipment to do so. One day after work ill try the solenoid. If that doesnt work next weekend ill give new EGR another shot I picked up a crows foot wrench for exhaust tube so hopefully I can swap out for new EGR since i already bought it, clean the exhaust tube and intake passages.
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-31-2018, 12:00 PM Thread Starter
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Funny you that because my a/c system isnt charged either and i hadnt thought about that. Good thing I wasnt planning on recharging it untill spring/summer came.
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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-31-2018, 12:48 PM
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Unless you've replaced seals, most of the AC's are empty.

The biggest thing to removing the EGR pipe is LOTS of knocker-loose, or other penetrating oil.

If you can spray it and heat it up a couple of times, repeat after it cools, it will help loosen it up.

Don't break it! I don't think any are available anywhere, so cleaning from the top may be all you can do; use a small ~1/4" brush to clean, while spraying or pouring chemtool B12.

There's a washer welded between the two small tubes, so be careful.
That orifice has to be clean to work. And the tiny tubes.

That will flush all the crap into the exhaust, so you might want to loosen that side up so it drains.
It ain't going to be good for the cats, it's a blob of oily crap.

Disconnect the removable piece where the egr goes into the intake; it has tiny passages that get full of crap.

Try NOT to send anything into the engine; it won't like it.

A good seafoaming afterwards can help clean the exhaust out.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-31-2018, 01:24 PM
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It's a 1 1/16" crows foot for the EGR. But you can't clean the EGR pipe on the car, nor is there a replacement. I soaked it for days with the GM top engine cleaner, and tried to blow it out with 120 PSI compressed air. Ever see a vacuum hose swell up like a balloon? It was the small ports for the vacuum hoses that would not clean out, even with stainless steel wire.

As mentioned, the passages under the TB are what to clean first. But after 200k miles, it's probably the pipe too.

I will mention, with the new style Ford EGR, you won't be using those pre-bent green and red plastic lines to just connect it back up. You will have to fabricate that split port hose somehow. I ended up having Jason find me a NOS EGR valve that was just like the original, and had the vac port in the proper location in the center, IIRC.

All for naught, as a new EGR was a waste of time. Good luck with it.

Al

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94 Supra TT Auto - street/strip car
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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-31-2018, 07:36 PM
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Maybe this would work. I considered doing it on my 1995 4.6 before I wrecked it.

Do you realize you were just passed by a NASCAR? I didn't think so.

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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-01-2019, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcm51 View Post
@Tbird Bob , thanks for the imput, but the link did not appear on my screen, just a blank page, either did'nt load correctly or something on my end......................................
I don't understand what's wrong with the link. It loaded on my page, but took forever.

Go to the Scottty KIlmer channel on youtube, and search for egr. Scotty uses an old speedo cable in a drill to clean those passages. However, he did it on a GM EGR, and it doesn't have the same clogged tube as on your system.

Do you realize you were just passed by a NASCAR? I didn't think so.
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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-01-2019, 11:38 AM Thread Starter
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it worked on my phone. maybe its something in your settings
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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-01-2019, 11:43 AM
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jt - this is what the EGR tube and valve on my '95 4.6 with 232K miles on it looked like, causing the P1407 code. If you have to get into it this deep, take your time, as replacement tubes are not available. Use the search feature on this site. I posted a few on the trials and tribulations of cleaning the EGR tube and resolving the P1407 code. Good luck with it! - Jim
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post #16 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-02-2019, 07:36 AM Thread Starter
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Wow Id say thats plugged up lol. Come weekend my dad should have the garage cleared (f350 motor swap) for me to work on my tbird. I will surely have to be careful especially since the tube is not made anymore. My parts car tbird has the 3.8 instead of 4.6 so cant steal tube from her either
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post #17 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-02-2019, 07:39 AM Thread Starter
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Just changed both lower control arms and strut rod bushings to arm side. Wow she rides so much better, only gotta change some bushings in rear passenger control arm to eliminate play and im ready for new tires and alignment.
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post #18 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-02-2019, 08:40 AM
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I am confused on which guy is working on which parts, but I would fix the EGR stuff before doing any suspension parts if the EGR is making the car run rough or not passing inspection. That EGR job can get you in a real pickle. You may have to switch to a 96-97 intake manifold/EGR setup. The tube is impossible to clean on the car, and you will have to get an EGR valve that has the vac port in the same place as the stock one to be able to use that factory 2 into 1 vacuum line.

I could hardly see the EGR pipe connection at the exh manifold, let alone take it off. But I did lack the motivation since I was selling the car. Jim3inVirginia seemed to be able to get it. The problem is, it will clog again unless the valve stem seal issue that is clogging it with oil is fixed.

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post #19 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-03-2019, 12:03 AM Thread Starter
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with the 96 97 intake/egr I would need a different tube correct? hmm salvage yard up the street from me has about 10 tbirds/ cougars too..
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post #20 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-03-2019, 08:33 AM
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Switching to the 96-97 setup is a last resort, though there are other benefits with that setup. If you can find a tube from a 94-95, that would be the way to go. Then you could clean that one ahead of time and have it ready.

I would replace the EGR valve too, unless you can somehow clean it out. I couldn't. But the new EGR needs to have the vac port in the center like the original one, or you will never hook up the hard plastic lines to it. The new Ford one has the vac port on the side, which won't work.

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94 Supra TT Auto - street/strip car
04 CVPI- Brenda's car - 76k miles
Previous Fords:
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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-04-2019, 06:57 AM Thread Starter
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one other question. do you absolutely think the egr issue would cause pinging and rough idle in lower rpms acceleration? or could that be a spark plug issue? im leaning towards egr and my stepdad thinks plugs. hes also used to older distributor cap style motors with no computers
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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-04-2019, 08:05 AM
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Clogged EGR absolutely can cause pinging under light acceleration, but not a rough idle or misfire. It sounds like you may have more than one issue.

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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-04-2019, 09:41 AM
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You can never go wrong changing spark plugs. I can't count how many times they have fixed issues for me over the years on various cars, especially turbo cars.

A fresh set of plugs, and making sure the wires are pressed on all the way could very well fix the rough running.

Pinging is usually cause by a dirty MAF wire, or MAF that's on it's way out, and "out of range".

Al

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94 Supra TT Auto - street/strip car
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Previous Fords:
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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-04-2019, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcm51 View Post
On the 96/97 they moved the throttle body to the middle of the manifold, yes, it uses a different tube also not around anymore that I know of........I also thought that's why the hood bulge on 96/97's for TB clearance.....94/94 flat hood is cause TB is against the firewall more or less.........don't know but if ya changed the manifold to the 96/97, would'nt ya have to run 96/97 fuel rails also which would require 96/97 fuel injectors also? the 96/97 has a shorter or longer injector(almost a 1/2 inch if i recall), i forget which....
Don’t know where you got that but the injectors are the same. You do need fuel rails and the section of lines between them and the filter though. Hood clearance isn’t a problem, there’s enough clearance.

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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-04-2019, 04:03 PM
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It is for clearance. It's just what the factory requires for clearance is a greater number than what "a guy hot-rodding his car" needs.

Al

97 T-Bird LX 4.6 - 80k miles
94 Supra TT Auto - street/strip car
04 CVPI- Brenda's car - 76k miles
Previous Fords:
95 T-Bird LX 4.6 - fully optioned, owned 15 years, 220k miles
96 Cougar XR-7 4.6- Brenda's car, owned 11 years, 187k miles
88 T-Bird 3.8 - first T-Bird, owned 5 years, 206k miles
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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-04-2019, 05:00 PM
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Here’s how it was under my hood, mind you I don’t have an underhood blanket.

004
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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-04-2019, 10:03 PM
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That's at least 1/2" more than I thought.

I thought shit was almost touching.

Although, IIRC your hoodline is higher than normal, so that explains it.

It's almost like you knew what you were doing or something, going to all that extra hassle to make it fit right.
(Read that in Shatner's voice, lol)

Nice attention to detail.


Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
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post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-04-2019, 10:14 PM
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How the fuck did you manage to take a picture with the hood closed ???
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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-04-2019, 10:22 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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He's only 3'2"; I thought you knew?!

He's standing beside the header, looking up.

Little People FTW!


Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-04-2019, 11:45 PM
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lol I pressed the counter on my old digital camera and closed the hood.


My hoodline was completely normal at the time I took that, I didn’t shim the engine down until the DOHC swap.
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