PI Swap / upgrades question - TCCoA Forums
 9Likes
  • 3 Post By MikeB
  • 1 Post By Grog6
  • 1 Post By XR7-4.6
  • 2 Post By Grog6
  • 1 Post By Woodman
  • 1 Post By XR7-4.6
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-11-2019, 01:41 PM Thread Starter
1st Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Texas
Posts: 39
PI Swap / upgrades question

Hey all,

I've been a member for a while but haven't had anything to speak up about until now....

I sold my '95 cougar some time ago in lieu of a Thunderbird, because Thunderbird. So I'm in the middle of pretty much overhauling this entire '97 'bird and have just about completed the engine, but I'm not sure how I should proceed from here.


The engine is a 4.6 2V NPI Romeo block (overhauled) with PI heads/cams/intake (MHS stockmod heads), 9.8:1 dynamic compression (11+ static), BBK 73mm one-piece throttle body, 24# injectors, BBK fuel rails (because the stock ones came out looking like beef stew inside), full-length headers and exhaust. Probably going to want to delete the EGR since the headers don't have a port, and not sure about deleting cats or not.... The fuel system will of course be totally cleaned before connecting, and a new fuel pump with adequate flow for the bigger injectors will be installed. The overall goal is to make at least 300bhp with this engine... an optimistic goal for sure, but I really just want a cruiser with some pep and a nice rumble.

My question is, what do I need to do to get the engine to run happy in the correct AFR range? Will the stock MAF be enough or will it require a different/bigger model? What can I do to get it tuned this late in the game, 10 years after the world has forgotten about these cars?

I have run a couple of searches on this site, but have not come across any definitive answers pertinent to my situation (and don't remember what I was doing/planning/thinking when I first posted here).

I'm old fashioned, EFI tuning is pretty much rocket science to me. Give me a carb'd setup and I can get it running just right, but all this electro-stuff I'm at a loss with. I can fix it if it breaks, but modifying it is beyond me. Only thing I know about tuning EFI is if you can get a pre-loaded tuner it's plug and play. I'd like to someday be able to get to a point where I can just plug a computer into a car and start laying down settings, but that's a long way from my current knowledge level.
Djose13 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-11-2019, 03:55 PM
Seasoned Veteran Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Novi, MI
Posts: 935
I don't think the stock MAF can support that much power. A good choice would be an 80mm or 90mm MAF from the Lightning pickup truck.

The car will need to be tuned. Even though the MN12 platform and its EEC-V ECM are very old tech now, there are still shops that will work on them. A "piggyback" chip can be used to override the default settings in the factory EEC-V.

MikeB
1997 Thunderbird Sport
5.0L-2V PI S/C
540 RWHP / 492 RWTQ
Quarter Mile ET & Speed TBD
MikeB is offline  
post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-11-2019, 04:05 PM Thread Starter
1st Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Texas
Posts: 39
Thanks MikeB for the quick reply.

Do you think the engine will at least run with the stock MAF and tune? I have the car on a docking platform I built, sitting almost 3' off the ground (no lift, and I'm NOT going to work in a ditch) and I will need to drive it off once I get the transmission built here in the next couple months.

I have seen an 80mm aftermarket MAF for sale (I think they are even Ford units?) and the 90mm "Lightning" unit as well, so I can definitely get one of those when it comes time to actually drive the car. Any idea what my options are to get the engine tuned up as far as hardware and a source for the tune?
Djose13 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-13-2019, 06:39 PM
Seasoned Veteran Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Novi, MI
Posts: 935
Based on my experience, the car should start and (maybe) idle with the stock tune in it. AFR will be way off under some operating conditions, so drive cautiously! I was able to put about 300 break-in miles on my new build with the stock tune, but was unable to use more than half throttle because the mixture went very lean if I did.

I don’t know a shop to recommend in Texas, but I’m guessing somebody on here does.

MikeB
1997 Thunderbird Sport
5.0L-2V PI S/C
540 RWHP / 492 RWTQ
Quarter Mile ET & Speed TBD

Last edited by MikeB; 01-14-2019 at 03:23 PM.
MikeB is offline  
post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-14-2019, 06:04 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

Moderator
 
Grog6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Harriman, TN
Age: 56
Posts: 9,859
Garage
You have 24lb injectors on a PI engine; does it still have PI cams?

The EEC isn't tuned for either of those, but with the stock maf it will be rich, so you shouldn't be able to break anything.

Buy a good maf; for 300hp target the 2002 mustang GT maf works well, (and it's also on a bunch of other vehicles,) but the mustang cone filter holder works really well as a cold air intake. You have to cut a tab off the filterholder, rotate the outer part, and cut the 'snout' to fit our fender opening for cold air, but it's a good upgrade.

If you buy a maf much bigger than what you use, airflow wise, your car will run like shit. A blower car needs a 90mm maf, not a stock PI engine.

I'd call around and find someone to dyno tune it; that would be easiest.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
Grog6 is offline  
post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 07:42 PM Thread Starter
1st Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Texas
Posts: 39
MikeB:

Good to know, it'll be a ways off from being street-worthy but I at least expect it to be able to move under its own power sometime this year so I can pack up the platform and actually be able to use my driveway before tackling suspension and brakes.

Grog6:

PI heads (bowl port), PI cams, FRPP cam followers, PI intake, BBK 73mm throttle body, BBK fuel rails, 24 lb injectors, full-length headers and full exhaust. I'm considering whether or not to keep catalytic converters on, and whether or not to delete the EGR. With the pistons I put in it should make a net compression ratio around 9.8:1 running (static around 11.6 i think).

Know any part numbers for the 2002 GT MAF? I don't really expect it to beat 300hp, if by some miracle it does it won't be more than 320 but most likely around 290 I think... a stock 99-04 made 260 with not more than a factory x-pipe, so final result is open for speculation.
Djose13 is offline  
post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 08:15 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

Moderator
 
Grog6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Harriman, TN
Age: 56
Posts: 9,859
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djose13 View Post
Know any part numbers for the 2002 GT MAF?
https://forums.tccoa.com/7-engine-4-...f-2002-gt.html

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
Grog6 is offline  
post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-22-2019, 01:19 PM Thread Starter
1st Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Texas
Posts: 39
Thanks Grog6.

So YC2F-12B579-BA, need a 6-pin to 4-pin adapter for it but otherwise plug in and should at least be able to start and move (don't anticipate driving until it's at least somewhat tuned) right?
Djose13 is offline  
post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-22-2019, 04:04 PM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
dDUBb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Nor-Cal
Age: 38
Posts: 4,083
Garage
I might have a brand new 6 pin MAF harness if you cant find one elsewhere.
dDUBb is offline  
post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 12:48 PM Thread Starter
1st Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Texas
Posts: 39
dDUBb

There's available adapters for 6-4 pin out there that should do the trick, but I appreciate the offer.
Djose13 is offline  
post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-10-2019, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
1st Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Texas
Posts: 39
Well, it's running now... just fired it up this evening after a LOT of hard work.

Leaking a little coolant from a couple of the (brand new) freeze plugs and for some reason the turn signals don't work, but it's running and didn't grenade on me.

Huge thanks to you folks that helped me figure out the techno stuff. My house and I now reek of cooked off header paint (Hedman Torque-Stepped 1-1/2 > 1-5/8 w 3" collector) but that is a huge load off my mind.
Djose13 is offline  
post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-10-2019, 09:52 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

Moderator
 
Grog6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Harriman, TN
Age: 56
Posts: 9,859
Garage
I use this stuff called "Gasgacinch" to give a 'gasket' to new freezeplugs, and never had one leak.

I used to use it on my dirt bikes, to hold the head gasket down, lol.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/e...iABEgKncfD_BwE

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
Grog6 is offline  
post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 03:44 AM
mjf
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: baldwin, new york
Posts: 5
I have a low mileage Thunderbird with a non PI engine. Where is the best place to purchase PI heads to replace the non PI ones? I'm not looking for a bargain I'm looking for quality. I have the list of parts from the TCCOA web site but no one sells new PI heads. I'm not looking for trick flow because of the increase in hp at the 4-6k rpm. I have the PI intake and coolant cross over tube. I live in Baldwin, N.Y.
mjf is offline  
post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 06:10 AM
Seasoned Veteran Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Novi, MI
Posts: 935
Modular Head Shop still sells PI heads.
Woodman, CDsDontBurn and Djose13 like this.

MikeB
1997 Thunderbird Sport
5.0L-2V PI S/C
540 RWHP / 492 RWTQ
Quarter Mile ET & Speed TBD
MikeB is offline  
post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 06:43 AM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

Moderator
 
Grog6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Harriman, TN
Age: 56
Posts: 9,859
Garage
Unless you have a 94-95 engine, the best and easiest upgrade to what you have if you don't want high RPM power, is to add a set of PI cams to your existing engine. NPI heads have smaller Combustion chambers, so adding pi heads actually drops compression slightly.

You can replace the valve stem seals at the same time, to fix the 'smoky exhaust' problem all our cars have by now. Even if it's low mileage, they're hard as a rock.

You will have to watch piston to valve clearance, as the intake valve chases the piston down as it opens, but it can be done easily.

Timing the cams properly while doing this upgrade is worth ~20hp, more with mandrel bend dual exhaust, and a tune to match.


A nice set of PI heads from MHS with an aftermarket cam blows this out of the water, however.

MikeB knows. Look at the cars he's built: This is the new one, I believe.

https://forums.tccoa.com/7-engine-4-...new-build.html

The cash outlay is substantial. But I can't say it's not worth it; even 300hp in one of these is a beast; 500+ is a rocket ride.



Stock PI Cams can be found in any 99 up 4.6l engine, as can the heads. JY upgrades are cheap.
But they're not reworked by an expert.

You can get a whole engine for less than $500 these days.

It all depends on what you want.


Read XR7-4.6's thread. He's swapped almost everything, at this point.
All cars eventually become Build, break, repeat.



A set of 4V heads from a 99 Conti are close to as good as it gets stock; but doing a 4v headswap is 100+ times more difficult than adding pi cams, or a PI headswap.

You end up fabricating a lot for a 4V.
CDsDontBurn likes this.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
Grog6 is offline  
post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 07:24 PM
PostWhore
 
Woodman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Duluth, MN
Age: 44
Posts: 1,880
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
Unless you have a 94-95 engine, the best and easiest upgrade to what you have if you don't want high RPM power, is to add a set of PI cams to your existing engine. NPI heads have smaller Combustion chambers, so adding pi heads actually drops compression slightly.
Excuse me? PI heads on an NPI increases compression. The NPI pistons are less dished than PI engine pistons, so putting PI heads/cams on NPI block/pistons gets you around 10.3:1 compression.
Quote:
You can replace the valve stem seals at the same time, to fix the 'smoky exhaust' problem all our cars have by now. Even if it's low mileage, they're hard as a rock.

You will have to watch piston to valve clearance, as the intake valve chases the piston down as it opens, but it can be done easily.

Timing the cams properly while doing this upgrade is worth ~20hp, more with mandrel bend dual exhaust, and a tune to match.


A nice set of PI heads from MHS with an aftermarket cam blows this out of the water, however.

MikeB knows. Look at the cars he's built: This is the new one, I believe.

https://forums.tccoa.com/7-engine-4-...new-build.html

The cash outlay is substantial. But I can't say it's not worth it; even 300hp in one of these is a beast; 500+ is a rocket ride.



Stock PI Cams can be found in any 99 up 4.6l engine, as can the heads. JY upgrades are cheap.
No. 99-04 Mustangs, 02+ for all other 4.6 except some of the Econolines I believe. Until 02, the ONLY 4.6 with PI heads were the Mustang.
Quote:
But they're not reworked by an expert.

You can get a whole engine for less than $500 these days.

It all depends on what you want.


Read XR7-4.6's thread. He's swapped almost everything, at this point.
All cars eventually become Build, break, repeat.



A set of 4V heads from a 99 Conti are close to as good as it gets stock; but doing a 4v headswap is 100+ times more difficult than adding pi cams, or a PI headswap.
03-04 Mach 1 and Cobra heads are better flowing than 99 Connie heads, they're the "final revision" for the 4v/cylinder 4.6 head. The Aviator got these heads as well.
Quote:
You end up fabricating a lot for a 4V.

97 Thunderbird LX (The GT Bird)
2003 Explorer WAP block with Modular Head Shop "street ported" heads and Stage 2 PI NA cams, 75mm Accufab throttle body, C&L upper intake plenum, Kooks 1.75" primary/3" collector headers, 2.5" full exhaust with mid mount Magnaflow dual in/out muffler, 24lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, Tuning from Don @ www.lasotaracing.com, CAI that feeds from fenderwell. Jmod, 3.73:1 TL in Mark VIII carrier, Mark VIII aluminum LCAs, 93 Mark VIII driveshaft, PBR brakes (soon to be Cobras), 18x9 wheels with 35mm offset, 255/40/ZR18 Tires, Front and Rear strut/shock bracing, GR-2 shocks, Eibach 1.5" springs, 1989 SC front and rear sway bars.
Woodman is offline  
post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 10:00 PM
Humble MN12 Genius
Super Moderator
 
XR7-4.6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Roselle IL
Posts: 16,474
Garage
Send a message via Yahoo to XR7-4.6
F150s started using PI heads in 1999. Windsor built PI 4.6s before Romeo, Mustangs used Windsor between 99 and 01 until Romeo changed over.


03-04 4V heads are better but the general concesesius is the improvements over the 99 c heads don’t produce drastically different numbers a dyno with a typical mild NA setup to make them more desirable. Pretty much the same difference flow wise between PI and npi, really, without the combustion chamber difference.
Woodman likes this.

-Matt

Last edited by XR7-4.6; 05-24-2019 at 10:14 PM.
XR7-4.6 is offline  
post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 10:11 PM
PostWhore
 
Woodman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Duluth, MN
Age: 44
Posts: 1,880
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
F150s started using PI heads in 1999. Windsor built PI 4.6s before Romeo, Mustangs used Windsor between 99 and 01 until Romeo changed over.


03-04 4V heads are better but the general concesesius is the improvements over the 99 c heads don’t produce drastically different numbers a dyno with a typical mild NA street build.
Thanks for the clarification. I don't know much about "truck" mod motors as far as when they went to PI and such. Got triggered by the "any" 99 up 4.6 as the much more common Panther cars weren't PI till 02.

97 Thunderbird LX (The GT Bird)
2003 Explorer WAP block with Modular Head Shop "street ported" heads and Stage 2 PI NA cams, 75mm Accufab throttle body, C&L upper intake plenum, Kooks 1.75" primary/3" collector headers, 2.5" full exhaust with mid mount Magnaflow dual in/out muffler, 24lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, Tuning from Don @ www.lasotaracing.com, CAI that feeds from fenderwell. Jmod, 3.73:1 TL in Mark VIII carrier, Mark VIII aluminum LCAs, 93 Mark VIII driveshaft, PBR brakes (soon to be Cobras), 18x9 wheels with 35mm offset, 255/40/ZR18 Tires, Front and Rear strut/shock bracing, GR-2 shocks, Eibach 1.5" springs, 1989 SC front and rear sway bars.
Woodman is offline  
post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-25-2019, 12:37 AM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

Moderator
 
Grog6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Harriman, TN
Age: 56
Posts: 9,859
Garage
The book I have for chamber volume has the entries swapped.

I swapped a pi whole, so I've never actually seen a pi combustion chamber.

I had to look it up; the reason to keep the NPI heads for a budget build is the midrange; pi heads/intake combos are peaky around 6k rpm, not great for a DD. Great for racing.

NPI heads breathe better in the midrange, where the pi heads are more peaky; even more peaky than the pi intake swap.
(If you've done the PI intake swap, you will notice a lot less midrange untill ~3k rpms. But it doesn't run out of GO at ~4200, either.)
The extra feel over 3500rpms is offset by the amount of time you actually get to use it; my unmodified Tbird is a bit faster than the very modded Cougar redlight to redlight. (Both cars have dual exhaust, but that only really helps with a high flow cam.)
The PI intake has more power over ~4200, but if the cops see you over 4200, it will not be a fun day.

The 03-04 4v heads are way more expensive, and rarer; no one wants a conti motor, so they're cheap, conti owners just buy new cars.
And I found a unicorn; my heads had xr3e cams in them.

There is a handful of hp available on all this; if you want more than ~20hp, you want an aftermarket cams, and reworked heads.
The cams are the biggest restriction until you hit over 300hp.

Npi stage 2 heads flow better across the board than pi; especially midrange.
If you want a set of racing heads, I'd send your heads to MHS with a pile of money.
Buying a set of trickflows is probably cheaper.

There's a thread nick wrote here somewhere.

BTW, you won't be able to get a tune that eliminates the rear o2 sensors anymore, so I'd plan on highflow cats.


I bought a book awhile back that a Dyno guy wrote, where he goes thru every combo I've ever heard of, with HP and Torque curves.

You should find a used copy; it makes for great bathroom reading.

Building 4.6/5.4l Ford Horsepower on the Dyno:

https://www.amazon.com/Building-5-4l...XKBVAEJ5XVKCP0


Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
Thanks for the clarification. I don't know much about "truck" mod motors as far as when they went to PI and such. Got triggered by the "any" 99 up 4.6 as the much more common Panther cars weren't PI till 02.
I've been here a long time, lol.

I personally prefer the Romeo engines, but I wouldn't swap a mustang anything into one of my cars; they're always beaten to death.

Say what you will about truck motors, but they haven't usually been abused too badly, unless the oil isn't changed regularly.

You can tell just by looking, "No, that intake won't clear the hood."

Gran Marquis are great parts cars; they usually get totalled by rear end damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
03-04 Mach 1 and Cobra heads are better flowing than 99 Connie heads, they're the "final revision" for the 4v/cylinder 4.6 head. The Aviator got these heads as well.
The heads are slightly better; but you'll never feel the difference unless you buy some serious cams, and even then the real difference on the track is a few hundredths. (same cams, different heads)

The Best Flowing DOHC heads are the 97-98 B heads. A cobra intake and cams really lights them up.
But the IMRCs are a bitch to deal with.
Navi heads will flow more, but IDK what intake is usable without going custom.

You do not want that 03-04 block, however; for an aluminum block, you want a Teksid Mark block.
They have been known to handle 1200HP for more than one season.
Woodman and CDsDontBurn like this.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote

Last edited by Grog6; 05-25-2019 at 12:58 AM.
Grog6 is offline  
post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-25-2019, 09:12 PM
PostWhore
 
Woodman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Duluth, MN
Age: 44
Posts: 1,880
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
The book I have for chamber volume has the entries swapped.

I swapped a pi whole, so I've never actually seen a pi combustion chamber.

I had to look it up; the reason to keep the NPI heads for a budget build is the midrange; pi heads/intake combos are peaky around 6k rpm, not great for a DD. Great for racing.

NPI heads breathe better in the midrange, where the pi heads are more peaky; even more peaky than the pi intake swap.
(If you've done the PI intake swap, you will notice a lot less midrange untill ~3k rpms. But it doesn't run out of GO at ~4200, either.)
The extra feel over 3500rpms is offset by the amount of time you actually get to use it; my unmodified Tbird is a bit faster than the very modded Cougar redlight to redlight. (Both cars have dual exhaust, but that only really helps with a high flow cam.)
The PI intake has more power over ~4200, but if the cops see you over 4200, it will not be a fun day.

The 03-04 4v heads are way more expensive, and rarer; no one wants a conti motor, so they're cheap, conti owners just buy new cars.
And I found a unicorn; my heads had xr3e cams in them.

There is a handful of hp available on all this; if you want more than ~20hp, you want an aftermarket cams, and reworked heads.
The cams are the biggest restriction until you hit over 300hp.

Npi stage 2 heads flow better across the board than pi; especially midrange.
If you want a set of racing heads, I'd send your heads to MHS with a pile of money.
Buying a set of trickflows is probably cheaper.

There's a thread nick wrote here somewhere.

BTW, you won't be able to get a tune that eliminates the rear o2 sensors anymore, so I'd plan on highflow cats.


I bought a book awhile back that a Dyno guy wrote, where he goes thru every combo I've ever heard of, with HP and Torque curves.

You should find a used copy; it makes for great bathroom reading.

Building 4.6/5.4l Ford Horsepower on the Dyno:

https://www.amazon.com/Building-5-4l...XKBVAEJ5XVKCP0




I've been here a long time, lol.

I personally prefer the Romeo engines, but I wouldn't swap a mustang anything into one of my cars; they're always beaten to death.

Say what you will about truck motors, but they haven't usually been abused too badly, unless the oil isn't changed regularly.

You can tell just by looking, "No, that intake won't clear the hood."

Gran Marquis are great parts cars; they usually get totalled by rear end damage.



The heads are slightly better; but you'll never feel the difference unless you buy some serious cams, and even then the real difference on the track is a few hundredths. (same cams, different heads)

The Best Flowing DOHC heads are the 97-98 B heads. A cobra intake and cams really lights them up.
But the IMRCs are a bitch to deal with.
Navi heads will flow more, but IDK what intake is usable without going custom.

You do not want that 03-04 block, however; for an aluminum block, you want a Teksid Mark block.
They have been known to handle 1200HP for more than one season.
My former engine was a PI intake/heads/cams on a NPI block/rotating assembly with stock manifolds, full dual exhaust, and a not great tune. Made 270 at the crank, 226 at the wheels, and was a great daily. Had 3.73's which may have helped, along with a Mark VIII torque converter, but had power all through the band, wasn't "peaky" that I could tell.

New motor is a full PI, with ported heads, MHS cams, Kooks, etc. Should be even better
CDsDontBurn likes this.

97 Thunderbird LX (The GT Bird)
2003 Explorer WAP block with Modular Head Shop "street ported" heads and Stage 2 PI NA cams, 75mm Accufab throttle body, C&L upper intake plenum, Kooks 1.75" primary/3" collector headers, 2.5" full exhaust with mid mount Magnaflow dual in/out muffler, 24lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, Tuning from Don @ www.lasotaracing.com, CAI that feeds from fenderwell. Jmod, 3.73:1 TL in Mark VIII carrier, Mark VIII aluminum LCAs, 93 Mark VIII driveshaft, PBR brakes (soon to be Cobras), 18x9 wheels with 35mm offset, 255/40/ZR18 Tires, Front and Rear strut/shock bracing, GR-2 shocks, Eibach 1.5" springs, 1989 SC front and rear sway bars.
Woodman is offline  
post #21 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-25-2019, 10:09 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

Moderator
 
Grog6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Harriman, TN
Age: 56
Posts: 9,859
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
My former engine was a PI intake/heads/cams on a NPI block/rotating assembly with stock manifolds, full dual exhaust, and a not great tune. Made 270 at the crank, 226 at the wheels, and was a great daily. Had 3.73's which may have helped, along with a Mark VIII torque converter, but had power all through the band, wasn't "peaky" that I could tell.

New motor is a full PI, with ported heads, MHS cams, Kooks, etc. Should be even better
See this thread:

https://www.tccoa.com/forums/26-raci...rs-thread.html

That, I believe.

Nick made 273 with a set of stage 2 heads and cams. He was the best guy I knew for head porting. (not to diss anyone, but that's public.)

Look at the threads; there's almost 20 years of datapoints here. KDanner, JL, Nick, a lot of really good people worked these engines over the years.


If you didn't think it was peaky, you didn't have another car to compare it to on a daily basis. There's a good difference from 2000 to 3500, and the acceleration from a stop is better until you get to where the PI intake works.

I drove both today, and the difference is easily noticable.

The Tbird is stock NPI, Lazarus is modded pretty well; PI intake, cams, and an 02 maf.
Both have Duals, ported stock exhaust manifolds (Thanks Tbirdbrain, wherever you are), and heavily built transmissions; I built both transmissions, they have identical parts, and are both new.
In the thread referenced, Nick mentions that the 4r70w and irs setup drops 20hp from the manual mustangs. That sounds reasonable.
The big mod for the transmissions are the one piece teflon seals for the forward and direct clutches, it makes them much snappier.

The biggest drag with the stock NPI intake is that it runs out of flow at ~4200, and there's nothing left.
An SHO or Fox Lake intake blows them both out of the water, as I'd expect.

I'm not working on modding a 2v; the issues are too well known. 2V engines need blowers.

With the cobra cams, ported Mach intake, and the C heads, I hope to make over 350hp, NA; I'll be very lucky to hit that number.

My DOHC build is almost what Matt built; He's driven the same car with almost every combo, at this point.
I think he'd agree that midrange is nice; that's why we are setting the cams the way we are.
I need to get him to Dyno his car, lol.
I'm still porting C heads.
I'm not a check writer, as this is a hobby, and that means I build it; not buy it. Building a flowbench isn't hard, but matching everything is.
Nick was the only guy I'd have port a head for money anyway.

There's probably more peak HP to be had by running different centerlines, but for a non-race car, I'd rather have the grunt, than a few extra HP.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote

Last edited by Grog6; 05-25-2019 at 10:54 PM.
Grog6 is offline  
post #22 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-26-2019, 01:19 AM Thread Starter
1st Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Texas
Posts: 39
MHS stockmod PI heads for 2V are best for daily driven, they come with a bowl port, tapered valve guides, and 3-angle valve job.

I installed these on my 'bird, $1300 for the heads. I also have a PI intake, PI cams, NPI block with slightly smaller piston dish, 73mm BBK throttle body / plenum, stepped full-length headers, dual 2.5" exhaust with X-pipe, '02 mustang MAF and 24# injectors, 3-row aluminum radiator, hotter coils, and I-beam rods I installed while overhauling the engine.

Yes, there's a noticeable difference between PI and NPI as far as where the grunt lives... the NPI are much better suited for putting around town and getting cheeky between streetlights but run out of puff above 4k, whereas the PI will lag a bit below 3.5k but REALLY wake up until the needle buries itself in the red.

I've also done the entire transmission over with Ray's street clutches, J-mod + Fairbanks street kit (pistons, valve body springs, etc) and a Recon 2200 stall converter. It does pretty damn well for a "budget build"

My car still needs a tune, I've noticed a little bit of light ping (to be expected with a 10.8:1 static CR) when the engine is fully warm on a hot day and is sometimes a pain to start when warm, and I'm sure there's still a heap of power left on the table, but I can't complain with the way it drives right now.
Djose13 is offline  
post #23 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-26-2019, 10:00 AM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

Moderator
 
Grog6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Harriman, TN
Age: 56
Posts: 9,859
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djose13 View Post
MHS stockmod PI heads for 2V are best for daily driven, they come with a bowl port, tapered valve guides, and 3-angle valve job.

I installed these on my 'bird, $1300 for the heads. I also have a PI intake, PI cams, NPI block with slightly smaller piston dish, 73mm BBK throttle body / plenum, stepped full-length headers, dual 2.5" exhaust with X-pipe, '02 mustang MAF and 24# injectors, 3-row aluminum radiator, hotter coils, and I-beam rods I installed while overhauling the engine.

Yes, there's a noticeable difference between PI and NPI as far as where the grunt lives... the NPI are much better suited for putting around town and getting cheeky between streetlights but run out of puff above 4k, whereas the PI will lag a bit below 3.5k but REALLY wake up until the needle buries itself in the red.

I've also done the entire transmission over with Ray's street clutches, J-mod + Fairbanks street kit (pistons, valve body springs, etc) and a Recon 2200 stall converter. It does pretty damn well for a "budget build"

My car still needs a tune, I've noticed a little bit of light ping (to be expected with a 10.8:1 static CR) when the engine is fully warm on a hot day and is sometimes a pain to start when warm, and I'm sure there's still a heap of power left on the table, but I can't complain with the way it drives right now.
Nice setup!

You've noticed what I have, pi vs npi.

I do worry that you hear pinging, tho.
With 24lb injectors and no tune, you should be excessively rich.
With my early tuning efforts, I saw pinging on 40degree dry mornings, but only there. There's more o2 in the air when it's cold and dry.
It was bad enough for me to fix it on my lunch hour. I about crapped my pants.

I'd get a tune that matches; for me the best part about tuning was getting the shift pattern like I like.
Don knows Nick's work; he's tuned a bunch of cars that are running his heads.
I was lucky enough to get him on the phone years back while he was bored, and I was making an order.
He gave me some tips on porting the npi, and 4V heads; mostly "DO Not do This..." type stuff. He asked me not to share, so I won't; his partners are still doing them that way.

The PRP was ~350, but I can use it on all 3 cars.
I just can't tune other peoples, unless I want to pay 1200 a year, lol.
You might consider it, if you like modding.

I use the raybestos clutches, and fairbanks kit as well; I have one on the bench that I'm building with the 'blue plate specials' in the direct clutch.
That will either work great, or break the shaft.

If you're not using the one piece teflon seals, you should be.
Check out this:
https://www.explorerforum.com/forums...and-hub.157283

The installer is pricey, but worth the cost; every one I've taken out was a direct clutch fail, and I could see where the scarf cut seals were leaking.
As well as All the rubber seals being hard as a rock.

I use 2002 transmissions; they have most of the mods, and I don't have to mix and match parts, like the later ones.
I may have to get a 4r75w next time, as they're supposed to be stronger, and I have a collection of 7 tooth output shafts.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
Grog6 is offline  
post #24 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-26-2019, 11:01 AM
Humble MN12 Genius
Super Moderator
 
XR7-4.6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Roselle IL
Posts: 16,474
Garage
Send a message via Yahoo to XR7-4.6
The timing curves between PI and npi are quite different, PI heads don't use near as much advance as npi and if you have a stock tune that's probably the source of your pinging and other issues.
Grog6 likes this.

-Matt
XR7-4.6 is offline  
post #25 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-26-2019, 11:24 AM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

Moderator
 
Grog6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Harriman, TN
Age: 56
Posts: 9,859
Garage
My tune for my pi engine I bought from lonnie...



I guess I need to go thru it with a fine tooth comb.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
Grog6 is offline  
post #26 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-27-2019, 12:55 AM Thread Starter
1st Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Texas
Posts: 39
Yeah I'm going to look at getting one of Don's tunes when I can next afford it.

The pinging isn't severe and it isn't constant, but being that it's getting warmer I'll be hearing it a bit from time to time.

I agree that it's probably running rich, can definitely smell it when I start it up warm (usually takes a couple tries).

In the meantime, I'm going to try to figure out how to get the slack out of my throttle cable (can only get about 70% throttle, too long with this TB), try to get my A/C working right (new compressor but only blowing air out the defrost and a questionable liquid line repair that hasn't been tested yet) and see if I can figure out why I have no cruise control or windshield washers....
Djose13 is offline  
post #27 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-27-2019, 11:00 AM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

Moderator
 
Grog6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Harriman, TN
Age: 56
Posts: 9,859
Garage
The throttle thing is not new; search, there's several options.

All of them basically are pulling out the slack at one end or the other, and covering the extra cable with a spacer made of tubing, held in place by hose clamps or zip ties.

New cables are not available for our cars, but someone noticed that a truck one fit. Search, it's here somewhere.


Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
Grog6 is offline  
post #28 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-27-2019, 12:20 PM
Humble MN12 Genius
Super Moderator
 
XR7-4.6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Roselle IL
Posts: 16,474
Garage
Send a message via Yahoo to XR7-4.6
Air blowing out the defrost vents only means the vacuum line under the passenger footwell is disconnected from the defrost door servo, easy fix.

I’m not sure what your issue is with the throttle cable, the TB is in the same place regardless of NPI or PI. If you want to take out the slack from the cable you can put a piece of rubber hose secured with clamps between the cable end and pedal under the dash.

-Matt
XR7-4.6 is offline  
post #29 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-27-2019, 07:11 PM Thread Starter
1st Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Texas
Posts: 39
Yeah I'm probably just going to do the tube over the cable and clamp or zip tie the F out of it. I'm not sure if my cable is just stretched, or if there's a difference between the cable cam of the stock TB and the BBK 73mm I have, but stomping it to the floor only gets maybe 70% throttle currently.

I figured it's a vacuum line under the dash preventing the air from coming out the other vents just from what I've seen fixing the A/C on the cougar I used to have, but I'm reluctant to tear into anything until I get my Plastex in... just in case anything ELSE cracks.
Djose13 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the TCCoA Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome