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View Poll Results: Comp Cams or PI Cams
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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 12:54 PM Thread Starter
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Cam Question

I am trying to figure out the best route to go with, concerning camshafts.


Here's the setup I am going with.

NPI Stage 2 PnP heads
Zex Nitrous
PI intake
3.73's
Custom TC 3K stall

SC (eventually)

Will I make more power with Comp Cams:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WD1V

or PI cams?

I'd figure Comp Cams, but I have heard about possible Valve Piston contact with these cams. Is there a way to guarentee no valve piston contact? What is the best way to go?

Thanks for any insight you may be able to give me (kinda time sensitive, 1 day or so)

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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 01:21 PM
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just remember, if you go compcams, you need upgraded hardware in the heads, i think i heard the valve springs may bind or something...

ask Mike (96goldbird) or JL about that if you need more info...i do know that certain people sold compcams and put PI cams back in when they installed a blower...
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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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Really.....I am not patient enough to change out the cams once they finally get in there so this is a one shot deal. As the heads and cams will be swapped by a shop or anyone on here who wants to do it, and has done it before and get paid.

PI cams = 100 or so

Comp Cams = 600 or so.....

I'll buy the Comp Cams if they will be better, but there has to be no chance of a problem with the above setup I listed.

So I may just have to buy the PI cams.

We'll see!

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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 01:55 PM
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you also have the option of VT cams, i know the GT guys on moddepot use them, and they have VT blower cams available too.. but i think using those require a tune because of drivability issues..

so PI cams may be your better bet for now, especially if you are going for FI later on.
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 03:21 PM Thread Starter
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Going for FI? I have no idea what FI is?

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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 03:22 PM Thread Starter
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Nevermind....Forced Induction

That one took me a minute.

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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 05:56 PM
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Well, as I was told by JL(the great one, hisself), comp cams have more duration, overlap, and less lift tham PI cams, which may have issues with the NPI heads,,, duration is where you get power, and the PI cams are going to put more stress on the valve springs(.050 more lift)... Valve springs are a weak point in those heads, and the $200 or so to buy them is good insurance against lunching your valve train... He Is going to be useing 268 degree grind NPI cams in his next engine, and I am pretty sure the comp beehive valve springs too. At his advice thats what I put in my engine, and couldnt be more pleased... PI cams on NPI heads is do-able, but I understand there are some mods that you have to do, thatIi choose not to even contemplate to do that one right...good lucl
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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 06:12 PM
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you sure? everyone has just been droppin the PI cams right in.. myself included

just not on 94-95 heads
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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 06:20 PM
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"Well, as I was told by JL(the great one, hisself), comp cams have more duration, overlap, and less lift tham PI cams, which may have issues with the NPI heads,,, "

Isn't overlap something you don't want with a blower? I had always thought that PI cams were good (for blowers) because they don't have much overlap.

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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 06:29 PM
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Well, my heads are 97+, and when I talked to the comp guy,(tech support) , he said the NPI , .500 lift would drop in either NPI , or PI heads, but the .550 lift In a NPI head was a potential prob, and to be absolutely sure the head/valve hadda be modified slightly to be safe...This discussion due the fact that my heads are Factory Experimental as were the cams in the engine, so I wanted to be on the safe side... also they said the .550 lift would require the beehives on the NPI head for sure regardless of duration.... In any case if the .500 lift 268 degreeis what JL recommends, and NPI heads , thats good enuff for me...
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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 06:32 PM
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yeah brian.. that is why mike sold his compacams and put his PI's back in.

overlap is how long both intake and exhaust valves are open no? i think with the blower, the fuel and boost goes right out hehehe

kind of defeating the purpose with THAT one..
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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 06:33 PM
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Palm Guy: Gee, I dunno, there isnt all that much oveerlap in the 268 grind, and the no overlap camz certainly didnt do crap for my engine....go figure
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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 07:17 PM Thread Starter
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Apparently I need to do more reading on cams, but at any rate, you would go with comp cams for my above listed setup or PI cams?

Thanks

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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 07:34 PM
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Well while we are talking about cams. Crower offers what seems to be some serious cams. Here are the specs....


check out the stage 4 N/A cams in the high lift chart.....they sell springs to lift that high.

Cam Specs

what do you guys think?

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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 07:50 PM
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http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...1/f83060f7.jpg

try that one

well.. it worked the FIRST time.. now its forbidden hehehe

edit** if top link don't work, i got it in time.. so try here instead:

http://members.tccoa.com/jamesd/camspec.jpg
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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 07:57 PM
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You could also PM Chadg and ask what he is running, as he has pulled some phenominal power out of his engine, useing some pretty rad ModMax cams, I think,
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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 08:18 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks LeLand and Everyone Else....

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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 09:33 PM
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I ran with both PI cams and Compcams 102200 grinds N/A in NPI heads. I had the PI cams installed when Renegade built up the ported heads with compcams springs and stainless hardware, etc. When the compcams went in, they bolted right in with no issues. I went from 225rwhp to 245rwhp with just the PI to compcams swap and a very conservative SCT tune. Yeah the compcams gave me at least 20rwhp. But there was something a bit special about my cams.

Off the shelf 102200 grind Compcams have a 114 degree LSA, so there is a bit of overlap, but not so much to make them unusable in a low compression or blower application, but better suited for N/A than for SC.

The specific Compcams I had were 102200's but I had them custom ground with less than 114 degree LSA, specifically for N/A application. There was a very large overlap. The purpose of that overlap is to scavenge vacuum from the exhaust to help draw the air into the cylinders on the intake cycle. While I had no vacuum issues and no idle issues, the guys at SSHS 3 witnessed some driveability issues. The idle was very lumpy, and when I tried to move short distances at low speeds, like in the staging line, or getting in and out of parking places, the engine wanted to stall. Jerry was able to tune those problems out, but initially they were issues.

PI cams have an LSA of about 116 degrees and no ovelap. Which means the exhaust valve is closed when the intake valve opens. That is why they make a good cam for supercharged appication. None of your boost is blown out the exaust. Another reason they make a good blower cam is that there are no driveability issues, such as low vacuum at idle, or at low rpm's under load, which affect the way the car runs and of course our brakes. When you add a blower to the mix, you have to be concerned with things like surge, and PI cams offer good performance and they are tame. Also, normally, engines built for blower application are low compression, and at idle and low rpm before the boost really kicks in, with significant overlap, it is difficult to idle, and you may have vacuum issues.

That being said, Chadg is running with cams that have 111 degree LSA and they are working fine, but tricky to tune.

Initially I got the radical N/A cams cause I was headed for 12's N/A. When I found out that I could not go there safely without a forged bottom end, I changed my plan and decided to go low compression and SC. The compcams I had would not work for a blower application. I had basically two choices, or three, actually. Go with aftermarket blower cams, have a set of cams custom ground, or use the PI cams I had sitting in my garage. Since the aftermarket cams would cost $800+ and custom grounds would have been $1200, and the PI's were free, it was a no brainer. Actually I would have gone for new cams but because of the extent of what I am doing, we wanted to keep driveability issues out of the picture, and if I want more power, I can just spin a smaller pulley.

Now about the rumors of piston to valve contact with compcams. There were some issues early on with the specs on the compscams, but although there was some variance from cam to cam, most were within .003" which is fine. Compcams changed some things and began inspecting their finished product better and I believe those issues have resolved. My cams were fine. My understanding is that the piston to valve contact problems were valve stem length issues, not cam issues.

And for those of you that might wonder what happened to my N/A compcams, they have found a home in a high compression, forged, explorer block, Bullitt intake red '97 (edit) T-Bird in Texas. And when they were installed, the new owner had no idle or driveability issues because of the higher compression.

I loved my compcams for the month or so I used them, but the truth is they were under-utilized in my application. The cams are designed to come on in the 5000-6500 or so rpm range and with the stock NPI intake the most I could get before wheeze time was 5400 rpm. My plan was to put an SVO intake on, but with a stock bottom end, I could only turn 6200 rpm, I'da been around 340 or so at the crank and my bottom would probably have not held up.

If you want to put cams in, and you only want to do it once, you gotta decide what your goals are and whether you're gonna run N/A or SC. Just like when you decide on a short block... either high compression or low compression. If your goals are mid to high13's, you can get there with a stock bottom and PI cams, if you want to go faster than that, you'll need to do more.

When you are ready for either N/A or SC aftermarket cams, talk to John at Modular Performance, he'll hook you up. By the way, the compcams only cost me $525 shipped.

-mike

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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 09:45 PM
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AHEM


he meant a red 1997 bird in texas..not 96..

ahem....
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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jamesD
AHEM


he meant a red 1997 bird in texas..not 96..

ahem....
Right you are, I edited the post.

thx
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'96 T-Bird LX 4.6L Alive & well & living in S. Florida

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Renegade NPI heads/Comp Cams; OEM intake manifold; Bolt-ons
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BLOWN: Renegade NPI heads; Renegade shortblock; Intercooled T-Trim; some other stuff
Pump Gas Numbers - 547 rwhp / 525 ft.lbs; Best Time - 11.388 @ 118.68 (Commerce, GA - November 2007)
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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 10:50 PM
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Mike has it right on, I think if you have the ability to get a good hands on tune then you should definately go for the Comps, the difference is worth it. The only drawback I have now with my cams is I'll get a stall if I just put it into drive without a bit of gas, but that's partly also because I have a supercharger to overcome on each rotation of the crank.

With the numbers of the comps I think you'll be ecstatic with Comp's and a good tune, otherwise PI's are a wonderful cam for just tossing in and going.

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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-20-2004, 10:57 PM
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fixed the link............check out the cams in the high lift table (pretty crazy)
cam specs

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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-21-2004, 05:59 PM Thread Starter
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Well, now I want comp cams.....

Anyway...

1 more question.

When I do the PnP NPI head swap, I will deplete all of my funds(Im having a shop do it). So, will the Comp Cams be okay while still running N/A with a nitrous shot, until I go S/C down the road?

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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-21-2004, 06:25 PM
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I dont think there would be a problem....but there are wiser heads who may want to throw thier .$.02..... only thing, be sure to put in the comp beehive valve springs, as they are cheap insurance, and add a bit to the mix at higher rpm where youre headed, as they resist float and bounce and will allow a lot more rpm without failure when useing a hotter cam....
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Any idea how much the springs go for, also is there only one type of Comp Cmas Beehive springs, so I don't buy the wrong ones?

Also what exact Comp Cams Cam would you reccomemed?

Thanks Again,

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post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-21-2004, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DMcBrideBoston
Any idea how much the springs go for, also is there only one type of Comp Cmas Beehive springs, so I don't buy the wrong ones?

Also what exact Comp Cams Cam would you reccomemed?

Thanks Again,

Dave
With NPI heads, you only have three choices of Compcams:

PN# 102100 ------ Grind # XE262H

PN# 102200 ------ Grind # XE268H

PN# 102300 ------ Grind # XE274H


I'd recommend the 102200/XE268H grinds, the ones Leland has, JL has and I had. The ones listed in the e-bay link you posted first are the XE274H grinds. You don't want those. You'd need an exotic tune job or a chip to get the car to run nad would be a PIA and the power band is above where you need it to be. The XE262H grinds are more for towing and low end torque.

I would expect that the springs listed in that add are the ones you'll need.

Who is porting your heads?? There aren't many guys porting NPI heads out there, and only one I know of that has a CNC program set up for them, and he happens to be getting the best flow numbers out of them. If you're guy is doing them by hand, check to see how many 4.6 NPI heads he's done in the past and check his flow numbers, not just at the peak, but across the board, both intake and exhaust.

Additionally,

New hardware should be part of the deal. Just have him upgrade to the Compcams springs and charge you the difference between what he intended to put in and what the Compcams cost. Since you're planning on running nitrous, I assume they are also putting stainless valves, bronze guides and titanium retainers, right?? Whoever is doing your heads should be able to set you up with the right springs and other hardware. If he was planning on putting your old hardware, or OEM hardware in newly ported heads to be used with nitrous, and/or SC down the road, I'd re-think that part of the plan, and shop around a bit more for heads.

You were talking about adding a blower down the road, and didn't want to redo the cams. Well you're not gonna want to redo the heads either, and for any power adder, nitrous or SC, of significant power gains, you need to have the best flow you can get to maintain cooler temps, and upgraded hardware to withstand the increased temps.... If you don't do it right the first time, you might regret it. You might scatter parts down the track. You might end up having to upgrade later. At the very least you will not get full value for the other mods you do, because inefficient flow causes excessive heat, and excessive heat decreases power output, and you will have to de-tune to keep everything safe.

-mike

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'96 T-Bird LX 4.6L Alive & well & living in S. Florida

N/A:
Renegade NPI heads/Comp Cams; OEM intake manifold; Bolt-ons
245 rwhp; 13.713 @ 99.35 (Commerce, GA - November 2003)


BLOWN: Renegade NPI heads; Renegade shortblock; Intercooled T-Trim; some other stuff
Pump Gas Numbers - 547 rwhp / 525 ft.lbs; Best Time - 11.388 @ 118.68 (Commerce, GA - November 2007)
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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-21-2004, 08:16 PM Thread Starter
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Jason Steen @ Steen Racing with be doing the heads. The ones with the best flow's are Renegage correct?

The whole reason I started this thread was to figure out what the right way would be, because I will not be doing the PnP heads/cams until early next year, and then probably another 6 or so months to save up the 700+ to swap the heads.

I did however want to buy the parts as I had the money available to me, It looks like the springs are around 150-175 so I'd like to start buying the stuff in Advance, although I need to talk to Jason to see if he will do the Valve train work if I send him the parts I've acquired or if it would be better to have the Heads PnP there and then do the valve train work locally.

I chose this way because I am absolutely HORRIBLE at saving money, I'd rather work 75 hours one week and spend my whole paycheck on the PnP job and so on.

I will be running a low 75 shot of Nitrous without the valve wook for now until I do the heads, If I blow em, whatever, I'll buy a new built engine.


So My Final Choice willl Be Comp Cams 268 Grind

Thanks Alot everyone, I appreciate the time yall took for the large posts.

Dave

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post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-21-2004, 08:30 PM
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That would be them.. You might check with Jason to see if he can get the hardware for the heads. Since he does heads, it's possible he can get them from the various vendors cheaper than you can as an individual. He may already have accounts set up with compcam, modmax, whoever...

It would surprise me if he did not want to take on the whole job - hardware and all, but I suppose it's possible.

And yes, Renegade has the highest flow numbers and he only does head with upgraded hardware, at least at this time. A set of fully massaged NPI's run about $2000 with all the goodies.

-mike

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'96 T-Bird LX 4.6L Alive & well & living in S. Florida

N/A:
Renegade NPI heads/Comp Cams; OEM intake manifold; Bolt-ons
245 rwhp; 13.713 @ 99.35 (Commerce, GA - November 2003)


BLOWN: Renegade NPI heads; Renegade shortblock; Intercooled T-Trim; some other stuff
Pump Gas Numbers - 547 rwhp / 525 ft.lbs; Best Time - 11.388 @ 118.68 (Commerce, GA - November 2007)
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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-21-2004, 08:55 PM
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Mike said it all, except the PN for the comp springs is 26113-16, and I paid like $218 including Fla. tax, or something like that.....I really didnt keep too good track of costs as my engine was an experimental piece, which was fulla non standard parts, and I ended buying more things that I hadnt anticipated, sprockets, new chains, etc. which you probably wont encounter... good luck
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