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post #1 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-16-2004, 07:17 AM Thread Starter
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Turbo options

Gents,

I have been doing a little research on turboing my bird and I would like a little input from those that have in some part completed the project. I think the hardest part I am having is getting the exhaust to the turbos. Here is my plan so please, point out the flaws in my thinking. I am thinking of getting the manifolds that are sold with one of the many Mustang turbo kits. From there, run a pipe from each to the small turbos, one located where the stock air box is and the other where the battery sits. The piping to the intercooler would run between the the engine block and the fan assembly. The piping exiting the intercooler would run from under the front bumper into the MAF and Intake assembly...like a normal CAI set-up. The spent exhaust gases would be piped out some how... I am working on that one. This is my plan. It is am idea and is not copyrighted or patented. I want to go fast and I want everyone else to go fast to. I am willing to share ideas. That is what it is all about. So, those with turbos in mind, let me know if what I have proposed will work. Later

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post #2 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-16-2004, 09:07 AM
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Therein lies the problem. The Mustang has an extra couple of inches on each side of the motor compared to our cars. We get better suspension but give up space. The McPherson struts on the Stangs don't need as much real estate as the SLA suspension we have. So our shock towers are more substantial than their strut towers. Even with a tubular K-Member (which is NOT street proven yet) you're going to be UBER tight under there.

This is precisely why I did what I did on my car. I mounted the turbo remotely. I'm getting about a 110hp gain to the wheels on a 100% stock car. And that's without custom tuning at all.

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post #3 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-16-2004, 09:16 AM Thread Starter
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Did you go with you own design or was it an STS kit. I looked at their kit and was impresed with it but I do have issues with it, with water pick-up and all but I did like the thought of it. And with that set-up, would it be feasible to get the lower portion of the trunk where the spare sits removed to better support that system if there are ground clearance issues.

And on performance, what is the lag like and how does it feel when the boost comes on?

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post #4 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-16-2004, 03:14 PM
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There is no STS kit. I got raw mandrel U-bends and cut and welded the whole thing together. STS will not be making a kit for our cars. They're too busy with their existing projects. But I have exclusive license to produce the kits. So once I'm sure that any and all bugs are worked out, I'll look into getting the piping made up and kits available. The nice thing is that it'll work on the V8 and V6 cars equally well.

As for water intake issues, the heat in the turbo plus the speed of the compressor wheel will basically vaporize any splashed water. Now of course if you submerge it, you'd have problems, but what kind of fool drives through that kind of keep water anyway?

I'm looking at slightly changing the position of the turbo so that I can put a 90 degree elbow off the back of the turbo pointing straight up. That will put the air intake further out of harm's way. I only need about 1/2" to 3/4" to do that.

The only other ground clearance issue is with the wastegate, but I'm going to find a different place for that or at least a slightly different mounting angle that will afford more clearance.

As for lag, there is some, but that's mostly because of the stock converter. The cure for turbo lag in an automatic equipped car is more stall. But as it is boost starts coming on around 2600. By 3600 I'm into the wastegate pretty heavy, so there's more room to grow with it.

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post #5 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-16-2004, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir William
This is precisely why I did what I did on my car. I mounted the turbo remotely. I'm getting about a 110hp gain to the wheels on a 100% stock car. And that's without custom tuning at all.
Did you get on the rollers again, SW? Last numbers I saw were something like 211 horsepower or something like that...

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post #6 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-16-2004, 06:07 PM
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The dyno numbers were crap, but the 1/4 times were showing around a 100 - 120 RWHP improvement.

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post #7 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-16-2004, 10:23 PM
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Back when I was planning out a rear-mount turbo, I thought about water pickup pretty seriously, I didn't feel like chancing a hydro-locked engine. What I had thought about doing was basically cutting a hole in the side of the car, glassing a scoop over it, running pipe up from underneath to that hold and putting the filter there. It'd look odd, but oh well.

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post #8 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-16-2004, 11:11 PM
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my only issue with the rear mount turbo would be losing my duals, my idea would be a twin turbo setup, the v6's have a little more room in the engine bay, doing twins would facilitate a dual exhaust setup,

it would be a mess of pipe routing but it can be done, hopefully i'll be able to do this by late next year, gotta get a second car while i'm working the bugs out of the bird's future twin turbo system, i'm pretty sure it isn't going to go together in a weekend, that would be my only problem, got to have a running work car so i can still go to work and still be able to boldly go where no mn12 enthusiast has gone before, well, with a 4.2L, anyways, lol

so Sir Will, did you have any driveability problems with your bird running turbo without a tune?

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post #9 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-16-2004, 11:42 PM
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The car has a tune, it just hasn't been tuned. For right now I'm running a "base" blower SCT tune for my mods.

I have the SCT Pro Racer package so I can tweak to my heart's content. I also have a wideband O2 sensor/gauge so that I can keep a constant eye on the A/F ratio. Right now though, I don't have any datalogging software that wants to work, so I can't really dial it in completely. It's going pig rich above about 40% throttle, so there are some things that I need to adjust for. I just have to get datalogging capability and time to really work out all the issues. I'm sure I can lean it out a bit and add some spark in too. I just have to find out what the EEC is seeing before I start monkeying around with the 1's and 0's.

I still picked up over 100hp at the wheels. I'm not gonna argue with that. It can only get better from here.

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post #10 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-16-2004, 11:51 PM
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sweet! i'll prolly have to do something similar just to get mine running, nothing like melting a piston or something to ruin your day, lol.....

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post #11 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-17-2004, 12:54 AM
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I think twin turbos is asking alot. I think a single turbo (like a 62 series) would do nicely. Twins are vastly over rated, and they are less efficient. the reason they are used is because those little imports have no low end torque NA, so they need them to spool quickly. That's not the case for mn12s, we've got the cubes we need.

I've worked some numbers, and I would conservatively estimate 350bhp is quite doable on an otherwise stock NPI engine at just 6psi and 5500rpms. Open it upto 12psi and we are talking 450bhp still at just 5500rpms.




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post #12 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-17-2004, 12:58 AM
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yeah, but it sounds cooler saying "yeah man, i got a twin turbo 4.2L V6 that i built myself" rather than saying "yeah, i got a turbo" lol....., not to mention the ability to keep my duals.....

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post #13 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-17-2004, 06:57 AM Thread Starter
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Just saying you have a turbo powered Bird will be enough...then show them after they finish falling out laughing. Watch those smile get even larger when they hear a V8 thump and a turbo spool up.

Sir Will,

any thought of running an extended intake from the front. Air travels pretty quickly, and once you are rolling it will be fed into the turbo. My concern like others is the water pickup and things like that. And I remember you saying your setup is not and STS adaptation, did you just locate the parts and go to work? Also...how do you keep the turbo oiled? I read how STS does it and it seems like the way to go. And finally, what size and type of Turbo are you running? I am going to check around, and again look into the possiblilty of building a mounting rack where part of the trunk is to raise the level of the turbo, for clearance issues.

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post #14 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-17-2004, 07:15 AM
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Sir William congrats on the urbo setup. I have long pondered one myself and got it worked out, in my mind anyway. How is the "fun factor" of driving a V8 turbo in a MN12? Please tell me its as much fun as I think it is.

Blackbird: hres an old thread about htis topic-- http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.p...r&pagenumber=3

Actually most sport compacts or rice burners run with single turbos. Although the 300ZX, Supra had twins, one of the forst mods done is to switch to a single large turbo. They do this because it makes more power and since they dont have the volume airflow like a V8 does they need to consolidate the flow into one turbo to make big power. A car liek ours woudl do great with twins like Tb/04 Garret or something laong those lines. I did the math for the airflow calculations and using two of these puts our car right into the middle of the compressor map for the majority of the power band. Also, right when our stock engine runs out of steam, the turbos stop producing as efficently so we don't lose any of the turbos benefits until we would lose the engine power anyways. And a bit of advice I think getting a hold of two dsm intercoolers ( side mount ) would work well as well. I mapped out and planned a twin setup for mine, the only question was if I could fit a 2-2.5 inch charge pipe through the engine bay . If so I can do it. Just need funds and a place to tear the car down. I think I could do it for about 3K. Probably closer to four htough.
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post #15 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-17-2004, 07:20 AM
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This is an old post of mine, maybe it helps, I dont know:

--"I thought of doing a junkyard/ebay build. It would be a lot of fabrication though. But it all dpeends on time and how much money you want to spend. For about 600$ yo ucan get two Garret TB/04 or something similar turbos. You need two wastegates and can run with one blow off valve. Since we have a return style setup an fmu would probably be a good idea as well. The tricky part is running the necassary pipe and intercoolers.

My idea was to hack the exhaust off at the header flanges and build from their. Put the turbos where the catalytic converters are. Fabricate using molds/carbon fiber for air intakes and filter system. of course htis would have been under the car, making it less than ideal in the rain. It looks like you can just squeeze some 2-2.5" pipe around the bottom of the block to get the compressed air from the turbos forward. Go on ebay or two a junkyard and get two DSM intercooler, they were side mount and are real compact, makign them convenient as hell. You can get 2 into the bumper mounted horixzonatally. Not the best for intercooleng, but still good enough. Then route air over to the stock intake port where the air silencer is and up to the throttle body.

Sounds hairbrained as hell but it would work. We mocked up some stuff and it looked like it would work. You woudl have to do it all yourself because with that much fabrication, it would be insane to pay someone to do it. I've built a turbo header for a buddy of mine from scratch, its not terribly hard but takes time, took me and another guy a day to do it. get you some stainless and aluminized pipe and go for it.

Running two smaller garrets is great because once you do the math and look at compressor maps it keeps the airflow right in the turbos sweet spot. At idle the car is right at the start of the high effency range and moves out of it at 5000-5500 rpm, which is where our motors fall off anyway. To run a single turbo would not work as well since you would have to put up some money for a bigger one to move the air efficiently. Turbos are great because they allow you alot more flexibility and full control of your power output, but they are a pain, especially with an engine bay like ours. For you I would recomend a Vortec or procharger, both can be had for under 4K. Bolt it on over a weekend and your rolling. A turbo would take no less than 4-6 months to do I think. And cost about the same, maybe a little less f yo uwent real cheap.
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post #16 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-17-2004, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
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But I have exclusive license to produce the kits. So once I'm sure that any and all bugs are worked out, I'll look into getting the piping made up and kits available. The nice thing is that it'll work on the V8 and V6 cars equally well.
That's awesome!!!!!

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post #17 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-17-2004, 08:32 AM
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You know everyone on TCCoA will have a turboed Thunderbird/Cougar now....










except the ones like me who have no money!

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post #18 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-17-2004, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
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Just saying you have a turbo powered Bird will be enough...then show them after they finish falling out laughing. Watch those smile get even larger when they hear a V8 thump and a turbo spool up.
It is QUITE awesome. I've had several people yelling my way asking what the noise was. Those who recognize it just give major thumbs up. It's pretty darned cool.
Quote:
any thought of running an extended intake from the front. Air travels pretty quickly, and once you are rolling it will be fed into the turbo. My concern like others is the water pickup and things like that. And I remember you saying your setup is not and STS adaptation, did you just locate the parts and go to work? Also...how do you keep the turbo oiled? I read how STS does it and it seems like the way to go. And finally, what size and type of Turbo are you running? I am going to check around, and again look into the possiblilty of building a mounting rack where part of the trunk is to raise the level of the turbo, for clearance issues.
No real reason to run from the front. The system is NOT an STS system because they don't make one for our cars, but it is all sourced from STS. I have their turbo, oiling system, etc. But instead of a pre-built kit, I got lots of mandrel U-Bends and did it all myself. They will not be producing a kit for us, but I am planning to.

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post #19 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-17-2004, 12:07 PM
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SW, when are you going to get us a video at the track or in the garage?

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post #20 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-17-2004, 12:07 PM Thread Starter
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Saving money now. Will be a while but this is easier and has a higher cool factor than a supercharger. It is always nicer to do something that isn't seen everyday.

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post #21 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-17-2004, 12:15 PM
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SW, when are you going to get us a video at the track or in the garage?
I'm actually going to get a buddy of mine from the local TV station to shoot some video and I'll edit it down into a nice movie. He owes me a favor or two anyway.

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post #22 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-17-2004, 12:21 PM
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Noooo! Your sleeperness will be gone! But ok sounds good to me! Hurry up I cant wait to hear that sweet sweet sound of victory

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post #23 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-17-2004, 12:28 PM
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Dude, it's only a sleeper now if you're blind and deaf. The car is anything but a sleeper. At anything more than about 20% pedal, you hear turbo whine.

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post #24 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-17-2004, 03:33 PM
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I pulled the threads referring to nonsense stuff. Let's stay on topic.

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post #25 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-17-2004, 06:35 PM Thread Starter
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t some time are going to change your injectors and such to keep up with the amout of air being supplied? I would hte to her that things went boom for you. And just for FYI I called STS and they are now selling anything in the kit seperate. They have the fear of being copied.

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post #26 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-17-2004, 06:54 PM
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Yeah, you can buy what you want. But considering they were just awarded 27 patents on the concept and execution of remote mounted turbos, a company would have to have some deep pockets to either defend an infringement suit or buy the license rights.

As for injectors, I'm running stock squirters now and am going SUPER rich at WOT. So fuel doesn't appear to be an issue. But like I said earlier, I'm not able to datalog at the moment, so I'm not sure what the EEC is really seeing.

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post #27 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-17-2004, 11:27 PM Thread Starter
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But you can't really copy right a concept. Once an ide is in play you can copy it...the only thing you cn't do is market it as your own. You can sell it for what it is and that is it. You have successfully adapted an STS kit to work for you and your bird, but you cannot say it is your system becuse STS generated the idea. But when you change the design, off of what you know and what you may have seen...you can call that yours. STS is not the first to remote mount a turbo. You may be the first to doit on a MN12. Now take what you have done, get it fabed up to fit [email protected] and that is yours. Honestly the only thing that they have really come up with is how to oil the turbo where it is. Props to them for coming up with that idea. I, m by no means trying to infrenge on what they have done, but from what I hve seen nd invisioned, 3700 is a bit steep for the kit as a whole and I m sure you would agree. Not to say I could do it any better but a good turbo(Garrett or Greedy) shold run for about 500 - 600; custom welded flanges plus labor (100 est), waste gate and blowoff valve (300), a gang of mandrel bends and stright pieces with silicone fittings (200) nd some time and labor putting it together (200) plus good tune (300). That is 1700 dollars. I can use the other 2k on a high stall converter, a MMX driveshaft and a set of 4:10s.

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Stock 94 block, Richard M intake tube, C&L 73mm MAF, BBK 75mm TB, Port matched elbow, 9 in K&N in the fender well, Diablo chip, M8 flywheel and TQ, FOrd racing underdrive pullies, NGK plugs, FRPP 3:73, auburn limited slip diff, 2.5in exhaust from manifolds back into Dynamax SS mufflers.
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post #28 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-18-2004, 09:51 AM
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There's where you're wrong. You can't copyright an idea, but you can patent it. They hold 27 patents on mounting the turbo outside the engine compartment. They're not patents on specific kits. They're patents on concepts of remote mounting, oiling, etc. And those patents would definitely protect them from another company marketing a remote kit. What they wouldn't protect against is an individual building their own remote system. Not because it couldn't be enforced, but because it wouldn't make sense to take it to court. It would be a waste of money on all sides. That's why they sell the individual parts.

Homegrown turbo systems are ALWAYS going to be cheaper than fully assembled kits, but we all know what 99% of the population is not up to cutting and welding their own mandrel bends to build a system. They lack the tools, the work area and the knowledge & skills required.

On the other hand, I'll have full license to sell a remote kit for the MN12 (and FN10 as well perhaps) because I source the base kit from STS. Could I assemble the parts elsewhere? Of course. But then I'd be in a patent infringement situation. This way, everybody is protected and we have another custom kit out there for forced induction. And believe me, if I can get the tubing done cheap enough, I'll make the price lower.

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post #29 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-18-2004, 08:32 PM Thread Starter
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Well if that is the cse are you held to the same very high price for their kit. Honestly, all I need from them or you once you start selling the parts is the oil sending unit. I have a friend that is good with getting me a pretty decent deal ona turbo and piping. I have no spirations of selling this for my selk...I just want to run 13's and have people understand that the impossible is possible. I don't know if STS knows or understnds that in some cases the sum of the prts is greater than the parts all together. I hope you get wht I m trying to say.

Fly Low, Fly Fast, Fly Ford Forever!!!

Stock 94 block, Richard M intake tube, C&L 73mm MAF, BBK 75mm TB, Port matched elbow, 9 in K&N in the fender well, Diablo chip, M8 flywheel and TQ, FOrd racing underdrive pullies, NGK plugs, FRPP 3:73, auburn limited slip diff, 2.5in exhaust from manifolds back into Dynamax SS mufflers.
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post #30 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-18-2004, 08:51 PM
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What would we be looking at cost wise on something like this? Screw the Kenne Bell (lol... no pun intended..) Turbo was always my first choice when thinking about adding power. I love the sound of the spool, I love the BOV, (Could I get a sequential on the adapted STS system?)

Anyway... back to the original question... do you have a targeted price range yet?
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