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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-25-2002, 09:44 PM Thread Starter
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Question Port and Polished

Can I get my heads Port and Polished and still use my stock intake? If so much would that cost and does anyone know a good place to get it done, pref in NC?

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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-26-2002, 03:11 AM
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Talking Talk to Ron, at:

Quote:
Originally posted by BlackBandit
Can I get my heads Port and Polished and still use my stock intake? If so much would that cost and does anyone know a good place to get it done, pref in NC?

Fox Lake Power Products
6512 Dalton Fox Lake Rd. N.
Lawrence, OH 44666
330 - 682 - 8800
Fax 330 - 682 - 8113

A Stage I job is $599 - labor only. The "Man" has mentioned
them in the past and Seabass has posted that he seems to
feel Ron is very capable.

Hope this helps,

Mager Thom
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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-26-2002, 03:38 PM
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its not worth it to get stock heads ported and polished. the labor and work involved would fall maybe a few hundred short of newer and better PI heads and intake.
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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-26-2002, 03:52 PM
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Talking You might want to read...

Quote:
Originally posted by silvershot
its not worth it to get stock heads ported and polished. the labor and work involved would fall maybe a few hundred short of newer and better PI heads and intake.
the thread under Engine - 4.6L "What to do? Opinions more
than welcome." posted on 7/16/2002.

Actually, the best setup is P&P'd non-PI heads with GT cams,
as some of the "big guns" are currently incorporating into
their engine builds.

Mager Thom
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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-26-2002, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by silvershot
its not worth it to get stock heads ported and polished. the labor and work involved would fall maybe a few hundred short of newer and better PI heads and intake.
yea, what mager said. always something new developing in the modular world, this is he newest chunk of very very useful information.

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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-26-2002, 04:12 PM
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Re: You might want to read...

Quote:
Originally posted by MagerThom


the thread under Engine - 4.6L "What to do? Opinions more
than welcome." posted on 7/16/2002.

Actually, the best setup is P&P'd non-PI heads with GT cams,
as some of the "big guns" are currently incorporating into
their engine builds.
so do you feel my statement is false?
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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-26-2002, 04:16 PM
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Talking Heck, you'll see I said almost....

Quote:
Originally posted by silvershot


so do you feel my statement is false?
the exact same thing in my first post.
J-Rob just showed me "I wasn't up to date..."

I'd say we were both a bit behind the development curve,
happens all the time - that's why we have the TCCoA.

Mager Thom
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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-26-2002, 04:18 PM
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Re: Heck, you'll see I said almost....

Quote:
Originally posted by MagerThom

J-Rob just showed me "I wasn't up to date..."
no, i was agreeing with you. misleading to quote the wrong information then say its useful information, thats my bad.

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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-26-2002, 04:25 PM
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Talking J-Rob.... you were correct in the previous post...

Quote:
Originally posted by J-Rob


no, i was agreeing with you. misleading to quote the wrong information then say its useful information, thats my bad.
I was referring to my first post on 7/16 where I had
incorrectly claimed PI heads were better, and then you
initiated the straightening out process.....

Mager Thom
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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-27-2002, 11:05 AM
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Yes and no...

As I learned, there are casting changes in the non-PI head that will allow for use of high lift cams on the later head, but not on the early head. I've seen a photo of a 1997 non-PI MN12 4.6L head with '01 PI cams and you must do something with the valve springs or there will be little to NO clearance at the high rpms. What does that mean to you...valve float and overlap. I talked with the person who has these heads and cams and we agreed by 5,500 rpm you'd have trouble. Ok, no big deal, you buy better valve springs and go with a better valve as well. That costs money though which adds to your overall cost.

A completely assmebled PI head with cams, springs and valves costs $850.00 or so for the pair. A non-PI head from '97 or '98 will require NEW cams (custom or PI). That means $$$$. You'll need some type of valve spring capable of handling the lift. That means $$$$. Then you have to port and polish the non-PI heads. Have them shipped to and from the shop...$$$$. Mager told us it costs $600.00 for just labor. So in the end, you have the same cost of a PI head (with a full assy). The difference is, the PI heads are ready to install, PLUS you could still have them ported on top of that (to flow more than the non-PI with full CNC porting). Those non-PI's are done.

Some of "those guys" who claim this works (to port non-PI heads) with great results are getting the parts and labor for under the cost that you and I would pay. So you look at what I laid out for you. Soak it in and figure out what is better for you.

A-Train

2008 Acura TSX (5AT)
2012 Honda Ridgeline RTL (w/Navi)

Ex toy: 1995 T-Bird LX - ALLEN supercharged, 2000 Mustang GT 4.6L PI engine, lot's of goodies...
12.74 @ 109.45 mph (BEST E.T. BEST MPH)
325 RWHP/380 RWTQ (SAE) on a dynojet
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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-27-2002, 11:16 AM
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Talking Thanks for the straight scoop...once again

you can save a lot of money, hassles, and time if you
just know what you're talking about - or in this case,
listen to someone that does...

That post really helps,

Mager Thom
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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-27-2002, 12:57 PM
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Re: Yes and no...

Quote:
Originally posted by A-Train
I talked with the person who has these heads and cams and we agreed by 5,500 rpm you'd have trouble.
Johnny Langton doesn't seem to have any 6K rpm issues with his 97 non-PI heads and PI cams.
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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-27-2002, 02:08 PM
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Well if his valve springs are stock...

Seabass,

Then they must look like this. A photo of a 1997 non-PI head with '01 PI cams and STOCK 1997 valve springs.

Would you want that at 6,000 rpm? I wouldn't. But then again, I don't need to spin my engine that high to make decent power, hehe.


2008 Acura TSX (5AT)
2012 Honda Ridgeline RTL (w/Navi)

Ex toy: 1995 T-Bird LX - ALLEN supercharged, 2000 Mustang GT 4.6L PI engine, lot's of goodies...
12.74 @ 109.45 mph (BEST E.T. BEST MPH)
325 RWHP/380 RWTQ (SAE) on a dynojet
Tuned by Jerry W. from SCT
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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-27-2002, 02:39 PM
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A-Train,

You should talk to someone about getting that Newbie status changed!

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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-27-2002, 02:54 PM
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Talking Are you kidding....?

Quote:
Originally posted by Rodeo Joe
A-Train,

You should talk to someone about getting that Newbie status changed!

Joe
A-Train LIKES coming in stealth (it's that counter culture
attitude) and ripping us other posters a new.....well, you
get the idea.....and that's okay, it's somtimes painful,
butt you always....ah, end up with more or better info than you
had before......LOL

It's always nicer to get the info from a well stocked "library"
than from "advice" colums......:p Goes for you too Seabass...

Thanks guys...I'm always reading,

Mager Thom
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"It's ALL about air flow...eveything else...is tuning..."
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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-28-2002, 07:52 AM
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Re: Well if his valve springs are stock...

Quote:
Originally posted by A-Train
Seabass,

Then they must look like this. A photo of a 1997 non-PI head with '01 PI cams and STOCK 1997 valve springs.

Would you want that at 6,000 rpm? I wouldn't. But then again, I don't need to spin my engine that high to make decent power, hehe.

A-Train..I did a bit of checking a little while back..call Dan if you'd like to verify...
The '96-up STOCK valve springs are identical to the '99-up PI springs.Same part number,and the number had not been changed according to Dan.The '94-'95 uses a different part number.
JL

1997 Thunderbird-4.6L/[email protected]
'05 F250 Crewcab 2WD-6.8L V10/5R110/4.10
2010 Lincoln MKT-3.5L EcoBoost V6/[email protected] stock
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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-28-2002, 10:44 AM
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:p
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post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-28-2002, 11:44 AM
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Oh well that changes everything...

Johnny,

Well pardon me. Does that make the overlap not happen though? No it doesn't.

A-Train

2008 Acura TSX (5AT)
2012 Honda Ridgeline RTL (w/Navi)

Ex toy: 1995 T-Bird LX - ALLEN supercharged, 2000 Mustang GT 4.6L PI engine, lot's of goodies...
12.74 @ 109.45 mph (BEST E.T. BEST MPH)
325 RWHP/380 RWTQ (SAE) on a dynojet
Tuned by Jerry W. from SCT
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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-28-2002, 11:48 AM
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Never said that..but it's the same spring,and the same cam...and there is apparently not going to be a problem.It's is a bit worrisome looking at the spring compressed like that,but like I said..it's the same cam,and the same spring used in '99-up,so if you're running the PI heads..you've got the same hardware in your engine.
JL

1997 Thunderbird-4.6L/[email protected]
'05 F250 Crewcab 2WD-6.8L V10/5R110/4.10
2010 Lincoln MKT-3.5L EcoBoost V6/[email protected] stock
Fuelly
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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-28-2002, 01:26 PM
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Talking So after all this head discussion....

what's the most cost effective approach for the street or
sreet/strip person? Would a Fox Lake Stage I job, including
3 angle valve job for durability and better flow, with the
stock springs, on a set of PI heads, with stainless valves
optional, be a sensible way to go?

I realize you won't get the same gains as the high end CNC
$2100 set like Seabass is doing, but would this more basic
set still provide reasonably cost effective power gains?

Mager Thom
1997 AED Thunderbird LX
287RWHP 345RWTQ



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post #21 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-28-2002, 03:30 PM
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Post PI Cams In non PI heads.

Those are my photos, I checked the spring clearance as asked by a fellow T-Bird guy. I don't like the coil clearace at full lift. I checked Ford specs on spring installed heights, and they list these as the specs: 97 Romeo, Seat preasure at compressed height, [email protected]", free leghth- 1.9764", seat preasure at installed height- 64.98 lbs. @ 1.57". The 2002 Mustang specs for the Romeo PI heads are: Seat preasure at compressed height, 161.9 [email protected] 1.13", free length- 2.04 to 2.16", seat preasure at installed height- 63.61 [email protected] 1.67 to 1.69". So it seems that something is different. I will get my PI heads back from Fox Lake this week, and check and take photos of the springs (MODMAX) at full lift, to compare. EECDOC.............

95 T-Bird 4.6 Twin Screw Supercharged
10.0 Best ET and 138 Best MPH
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post #22 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-28-2002, 10:07 PM
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Smile Yes they are...

It also seems to me that EECDOC is the only person posting with an MN12 to achieve a 12 second time slip with stock untouched/unported non-PI heads on a stock ROMEO SOHC 4.6L.

So I'd listen to him. After all he has more engine experience and drag racing experience than most of us in this thread.

But then again what do we know.

A-Train

2008 Acura TSX (5AT)
2012 Honda Ridgeline RTL (w/Navi)

Ex toy: 1995 T-Bird LX - ALLEN supercharged, 2000 Mustang GT 4.6L PI engine, lot's of goodies...
12.74 @ 109.45 mph (BEST E.T. BEST MPH)
325 RWHP/380 RWTQ (SAE) on a dynojet
Tuned by Jerry W. from SCT
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post #23 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-28-2002, 10:33 PM
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You forgot the AED...
I never questioned Mike and his abilites,or yours for that matter.I only stated facts that I have researched,and you seem offended by it.If people are disturbed by the spring's close tolerance with the PI cams in their car,then they don't need to do it. I've got right at 5K miles on mine now after the camswap,and 180K miles on my stock untouched/unported non-PI heads on the original stock ROMEO SOHC 4.6L.No problems,and I've revved it to over 6K a few times now,and have moved my shift points to 6K on the 1-2,and 5800 on the 2-3.
I should be in the 13's with good air this fall-the only MN12 to do so without PI heads.Either way..I'm the fastest right now with a N/A stock ROMEO SOHC 4.6L with untouched/unported non-PI heads.
JL

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'05 F250 Crewcab 2WD-6.8L V10/5R110/4.10
2010 Lincoln MKT-3.5L EcoBoost V6/[email protected] stock
Fuelly

Last edited by Johnny Langton; 07-28-2002 at 10:50 PM.
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post #24 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-28-2002, 10:50 PM
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Oh yeah...

It took 3 seconds off his 1/4 mile time. How could I have forgotten. Silly me.

I'm not offended by anything anyone does here. I never said you couldn't get the set-up you have working. I only said the clearance was close and it bothered me when I saw it.

We were only talking cost and even if the springs stay stock, the cost doesn't make the non-PI stuff any better than PI's.

A-Train

2008 Acura TSX (5AT)
2012 Honda Ridgeline RTL (w/Navi)

Ex toy: 1995 T-Bird LX - ALLEN supercharged, 2000 Mustang GT 4.6L PI engine, lot's of goodies...
12.74 @ 109.45 mph (BEST E.T. BEST MPH)
325 RWHP/380 RWTQ (SAE) on a dynojet
Tuned by Jerry W. from SCT
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post #25 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-28-2002, 10:52 PM
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Smile Oh one more thing...

JL,

Good luck on your quest for 13's. That would be impressive. It just goes to show the power comes mostly from the cams.

A-Train

2008 Acura TSX (5AT)
2012 Honda Ridgeline RTL (w/Navi)

Ex toy: 1995 T-Bird LX - ALLEN supercharged, 2000 Mustang GT 4.6L PI engine, lot's of goodies...
12.74 @ 109.45 mph (BEST E.T. BEST MPH)
325 RWHP/380 RWTQ (SAE) on a dynojet
Tuned by Jerry W. from SCT
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post #26 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-28-2002, 10:59 PM
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Thank you sir..I'll let everybody know as soon as it happens. The 14.39 listed in my sig was before the camswap too....I need good air here to get better numbers.I ran the car at HRP soon after the swap,ran a [email protected] and the air was horrid-90 degrees or a tad more,and 85-90% humidity (mph was up-even with the bad air).The 14.39 was ran with 60 degree air and 55-60% humidity,and on slicks vs the 14.42 on street tires,so there's a bit more there too.
C'Mon October!!
JL

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2010 Lincoln MKT-3.5L EcoBoost V6/[email protected] stock
Fuelly
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post #27 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-29-2002, 01:09 PM
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quick question that i think i already know the answer to. if the pi heads can go onto a older style block, can a set of non pi set of heads go onto a 00 4.6 block? after i do the pi 4.6 swap im thinking about keeping the heads getting them worked over and then putting them onto the pi motor. by the time im ready to do this there will probably be a few options out there for me to choose from, this is a long term project that im thinking about.
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