3.8L SC to 4.6L Terminator Swap - TCCoA Forums
 
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Old 09-19-2006, 07:55 PM Thread Starter
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3.8L SC to 4.6L Terminator Swap

I think maybe this might be interesting to a few...and may answer many of my questions. I Broke a piston in my 95 SC recently and stumbled across a good deal on a wrecked 10th Anniv Cobra Convertible. So now the T-Bird has been snake bitten and is morphing into a fire breathing screamer...very slowly I might add. I will finish stripping the Cobra tomorrow and will start checking the wiring and figuring out where the transition between the harnesses will take place. One question to start off with. Is the k-member in the SC the same as the k-member in the 4.6L LX in 95?

Any help will be much appreciated.

Mike
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Old 09-19-2006, 08:06 PM
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Please, tell us that you are not destroying one of those 1 in 500 '95 SC five speeds!
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Old 09-19-2006, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil Mikey
I think maybe this might be interesting to a few...and may answer many of my questions. I Broke a piston in my 95 SC recently and stumbled across a good deal on a wrecked 10th Anniv Cobra Convertible. So now the T-Bird has been snake bitten and is morphing into a fire breathing screamer...very slowly I might add. I will finish stripping the Cobra tomorrow and will start checking the wiring and figuring out where the transition between the harnesses will take place. One question to start off with. Is the k-member in the SC the same as the k-member in the 4.6L LX in 95?

Any help will be much appreciated.

Mike
From reading your post over on Modulardepot you need to do some major research on this subject. It has been thought about more than once around here and never attempted for good reason, there is just much more economical ways of acheiving that power level. Todd from here in the Chicago area even had a motor ready to go in gave up on it since it posed too many problems. I will tell you that the cobra half shafts will not work. The cobra wiring and cluster is not the way to go, better off using 4.6 MN12 pieces, same goes with the fuel system. I am not sure what wheels you have chosen but they most likely do not have enough offset to fit well. Like I said when I started off, you need to do some major research this is not just a bolt in operation.

-Miller

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Old 09-19-2006, 11:51 PM Thread Starter
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Controversial yes, but I wouldn't call it destroying...and it's like 574 or something. Besides, by the time the collector value on the car is high enough to make it worth keeping it together, I'll have long since checked out. I will loose the cool factor of the high output 6, but I like to drive my car, not look cool in it. After everything is said and done, the $$$ to put 425hp to the back tires out of either platform(for me), is about the same.(I expect this will start a bit of a discussion) But the end result is that I have a lot of potential for further growth with the 4.6, where there wouldn't be a lot of streetable growth left in the 3.8 at that power level. I expect to be driving this car when the wheels fall off, and then I'll bolt them back on and drive it some more. As for research, the fact that I haven't seen it done yet(with the 03/04 Cobra motor), tells me that there are issues lurking. If I use the standard 4.6 computer, I can't use the Cobra instrument panel as far as I know. I'm not sure when the communications bus thing started in the Fords, but the harness, ECU, GEM, and cluster have to stay together...use all or none type of thing. Unless you can flash the instrument panel to recognize an ECU out of a different car. Also using the ECU off a std 4.6 on a supercharged engine sounds like less fun than dealing with the PAT security system. Clearance issues will be the transmission tunnel to the Viper T56, the oil cooler to front sway bar, and the alternator to front subframe. Not to mention that the shifter must be relocated 4.75in further back in the tailhousing of the T56. Also you have to use an oil filter adapter off a Lightning or a remote oil filter kit, in order to change the filter once the engine is installed. As for the wheels a +30mm offset or 6" backspace with a 255/45 should clear without any issues, even with the lowering springs(check out Ed's car @sccoa). More research time would have been welcome, but the cracked piston in the daily driver has moved the time table up a bit. And finally, a NA 347 would possibly be more economical, but I like the drivability of the supercharged setup. And a supercharged 347 would cost a bit more than I'm spending on the current project. I would like to know what kind of issues Todd ran into. Seeing what is coming is much better than blundering in.


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Old 09-20-2006, 01:25 AM
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I know many daily driven v6's with more than 400rwhp. But thats beside the point I suppose.

Why not skip the giant wiring mess and go with an autometer gauge panel and standalone engine management. The money you'll save from countless hours at the dyno shop would be worth it for being able to change anything whenever you wanted to.

I recall Sir William having bought a few 6spd transmissions a few years back. I know for a fact he bought them and attempted an install, I am nearly positive they were both t56's. And I also know for a fact that the transmission tunnel did not fit the transmission. BUT, if you do decide to use a standalone engine management system, use Baumann's standalone 4r70w transmission controller. Again, less hastle and you can control shift points and line pressures with the Baumann computer.

as for the wheels and halfshafts, who cares. I'd bet the 28spline tbird axles will hold up fine. EECDOC's do and he's in the 10's. If you have a 6spd with sticky tires you will run in to a problem, but Ill bet its nothing Raxles can't fix for you. And why change bolt patterns. I really dont see the need for it, unless you're dead set on 31 spline shafts

All of these ideas cost money, but I believe they are worth every penny. If you plan on keeping this a cheap project (Which I'm sure was thrown out the window with the cost of this wrecked cobra anyway) then you shouldnt even make the attempt. Just my $.02

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Old 09-20-2006, 03:03 AM Thread Starter
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Hey Thomas, thanks for your .02 I checked out two of the engine management systems and if I remember right they started out at about 2k. Yes, the Cobra price tag was pretty heavy, even after the power pole, but I think with the amount I've put into everything else, I should brave the wiring. The big factor with the bolt pattern change was brakes and wheels. With the 5x4.5, I can bolt on the Cobra front brakes, and spend an afternoon making the rear brakes fit. And as it happens I have all the hubs, brakes, and misc hardware since the power pole went into the side of the car. I also have two 275/40ZR17 tires to test out those 31 spline axles with...hehehe. That should be fun with the 6spd and 4.10 gears. Running the Viper trans instead of the Mustang version with 4.10 gears and the taller tires puts me at about 1780rpm at 70mph. The Cobra with the stock tire size and 3.55 gears was turning about 2000rpm at 70. Maybe I'll be able to get a little better milage than the stang. With the 6spd I'm hoping to find out how to make it happen, so it will open up the option for the 3.8 crowd. The bellhousing is available to bolt up the Viper trans, and you can run 3.73 to 4.10 gears and still maintain your highway milage. The stumbling blocks are the tunnel and the shifter. Anyway, I gotta grab some sleep. I have the next 3 days to do nothing but play cars.

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Old 09-20-2006, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas
I'd bet the 28spline tbird axles will hold up fine. EECDOC's do and he's in the 10's.
Siska hasn't been running the stock 28 spline Tbird shafts for quite some time now. He's running Level 5 shafts with 31 spline ends, IIRC.

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Old 09-20-2006, 09:12 AM
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reeeeally? well good to know.

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Old 09-20-2006, 11:11 AM
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it will bost 4 times as much to do the terminator swap than it will to reuild the short block of your SC with new ****. I want an artist paint my car, not turn a wrench on it.




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Old 09-20-2006, 12:22 PM Thread Starter
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My initial estimate to rebuilt the 6 to a level I was comfortable with was a bit over 5k. Add in a magnaport III, FMIC, etc...3k. Now I've spent 8k = Terminator price. So I figured that the cost of the swap would be about 2k extra, figuring in 1-2k odds and ends for both platforms.(The odds and ends really add up.) I was already planning on the T56 swap and all the suspension upgrades, and already purchased most of the parts, including the full Cobra brake setup. So now we fugure in selling off all the extra pieces after the swap, including about 5k worth of SC bolt ons, and wahlah, Terminator swap is cheaper. The killer amount of time and effort isn't a problem, it's actually the fun part. If it wasn't a challenge, it wouldn't be cool or fun.

So does anyone have an opinion or experience with the hydroboost setup. Besides all the plumbing being a pain, and figuring in the fact that I doubt I'll be rev-maching gears in a bunch of twisties(Using the brakes with no vac). The only pros or cons for both systems I see right now is the difficulty of swapping, which I obviously don't base decisions on. Any input/experiences would be appreciated.

Mike
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Old 09-20-2006, 01:02 PM
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It's gonna be a pain, it's gonna be expensive, but for the love of God, someone just suck it up and DO THIS. It's been talked about too many times...DO IT.

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Old 09-20-2006, 01:16 PM Thread Starter
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In progress
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Old 09-20-2006, 01:21 PM
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So does anyone have an opinion or experience with the hydroboost setup. Besides all the plumbing being a pain, and figuring in the fact that I doubt I'll be rev-maching gears in a bunch of twisties(Using the brakes with no vac). The only pros or cons for both systems I see right now is the difficulty of swapping, which I obviously don't base decisions on. Any input/experiences would be appreciated.

Mike
My opinion is keep your vac boost brakes. As long as you are pulling your vacuum between the TB and blower there will be no issue with having enough vacuum. Obviously they work fine with your current blower so why complicate things

Birdless

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Old 09-21-2006, 01:10 AM Thread Starter
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So if I stick with the vacuum setup, what about the anti-loks. My first T-bird was a Turbo Coupe, and if you had that out on a track , on the limiter, and nailed the brakes, it flat wouldn't stop. Just plain dangerous if you're doing 70 and a deer runs out in front of you. So my experience with the SC is that it stops fairly well from 65(deer), but I haven't had it topped out at the track and got hard into the brakes yet. And now I'm throwing 13" rotors with dual piston calipers on the front, and 10+" rotors on the back. I have no idea what to expect out of the anti-loks. It would be a convenient time to pull it out while the car is down, but if someone has done the brake conversion, and the anti-loks work ok at high speeds, then I'll just leave them in.

Project status: The Cobra is fully stripped, cut in half, and out of the garage. Spent about half the day restacking car parts so I can fit the T-Bird in and still have room to work. I also spread out the complete Cobra wiring harness on the garage floor and hooked everything up. Once I got it powered up I pulled all the codes off the instrument cluster...and then took a picture of the odometer(3595.5 ). So as far as I can tell, the wiring is good. I think if the ECU wasn't working then the milage would blank out after a few seconds and display all dashes. I was having difficulties with the wiring while it was still in the car(dashes across the odometer) but while disassembling everything I found a couple of ground wires to the ECU that had been torn off in the accident. I don't know how I missed the ground wires when I inspected the harness for damage prior to hooking up the battery, they were right out in the open.
After looking at the transmissions, I think the hydraulic setup will probably be the easiest to use. The clutch slave cylinder off the M5R2 bolts up to the front of the Viper transmission, I just need to check and see if the installed height and throw are the same. If I do use the hydraulic setup, I'm going to re-inforce the firewall and build an adjuster into the mastercylinder plunger. I had issues on the SC with the SPEC stage II not fully disengaging. This could have been caused by the firewall flex, or by the slave cylinder(No leakage so I don't think that was it), but I don't want to have the same problem again. I replaced the mastercylinder and bled the system countless times but it never fixed the problem. Also I think I may extend the bleeder and permanently attach a tube to the end to make bleeding easy and non-messy.
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Old 09-21-2006, 07:26 AM
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It might be usefull to check out this site

http://www.ffcobra.com/cgi-bin/ultim...=0;DaysPrune=0

There are quite a few guys who have installed terminators in their Cobra replicas and they have trimmed the harness down.

Birdless

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Old 09-21-2006, 10:59 AM Thread Starter
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Awesome resource...and just what I need.

Thanks,

Mike
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Old 09-21-2006, 01:34 PM
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if you plan on installing the 10th anniversary wheels on your bird your gonna be exreamlly happy!! i did this about a year ago and havnt seen a bird that even comes close to mine in looks in respect to the wheels. to get the offset right you need to have about 3 mm machined off the inside hub of the rim, this will give you a very nice stance and just enough clearance with the fender lip. i didnt even haveto roll the fender edge like i thought i might. be carefull of the rear wheel size though,, i run 245's all the way around (better when you go to rotate tires) and i dont think you will have a traction problem if you use a good tire.

as for the rear brakes,,, there is a guy on here who makes brackets that allow you to use your bird calipers in the rear (more pad surface than cobra rear calipers anyway) with the cobra 11.5 inch rear rotor. if you do a search on "rear cobra brake bracket" you should be able to find it.
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Old 09-21-2006, 11:37 PM Thread Starter
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Yeh, I bought a full set of wheels before I found the Cobra. I do like the Cobra wheels but only two off the car were in decent shape. The third would be usable at the track, but is a little too skuffed up for the street. The fourth wheel is on its way to being a beer can. I hope to see it again soon. I've seen someone run the same offset and tire size that I bought so hopefully I won't have any issues with rubbing. Thanks for the info on the bracket.

Mike
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Old 02-02-2007, 12:12 PM
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Bring it back alive... any progress?

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'13 Mustang GT Premium 5.0L V8, Auto, Brembo, Black - Daily Dark Horse
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Old 02-02-2007, 01:31 PM
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Progress......HA! How about taking bets.....

How many here think he got in over his head and this whole set up will be up for sale cheap in the next 6-months, because he’s finally realized it?

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Old 02-02-2007, 01:51 PM
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I hope he did it, I hope SOMEONE does it.

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'95 Thunderbird 4.6L V8 - Performance White
Leaky shifter @ 137,441; what a good ride. Gone to the crusher, but not forgotten... moth and rust doth corrupt.

'13 Mustang GT Premium 5.0L V8, Auto, Brembo, Black - Daily Dark Horse
'11 Edge SEL AWD 3.5L V6, Loaded, Black - For the Misses
'98 F-150 XLT RegCab 8'Bed, 4.6L V8 4x4 ORP Oxford White - Work Truck

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Old 02-03-2007, 03:10 PM
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im rooting for him, if he was closer, id offer my help, it would be a good swap if someone can figure it out, and the 6spd in our cars, another good thing if someone paves the way and gets one under our chassis

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Old 02-03-2007, 06:55 PM
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This one's halfway there...
http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=92851
Still need a t56 mated to a 4.6 though.

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Old 02-04-2007, 11:59 AM
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so it will fit underneath, but the 4.6 is a very different motor then the 5.0, so i think the 6spd itself is also a very different transmission, but im only guessing, i could be very wrong

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Old 02-04-2007, 02:04 PM
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Couldn't you just swat the t56 bellhousing with a t45 brllhousing?

1995 LX T-45 Tranny, Xcal2 from Lonnie. Some pics of the custom tranny parts are at this link. Check them out here.
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Old 02-04-2007, 02:34 PM
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two different transmissions, so no, the t56 seems like its about twice the size of the t45

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Old 02-05-2007, 05:25 PM
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Gotcha was just curious

1995 LX T-45 Tranny, Xcal2 from Lonnie. Some pics of the custom tranny parts are at this link. Check them out here.
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Old 02-05-2007, 05:53 PM
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didnt phreakness finish the project in a MK8? if so isnt that car rather similar to the t-birds chassis/k-member/trans tunnel wise?

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Old 02-06-2007, 07:11 PM
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yes very similar, but slightly different, but not enough for it to be impossible on a tbird, if someones done it in a mark 8

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Old 07-22-2007, 04:11 PM Thread Starter
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Over my head?... most likely;-) Crazy... definitely, but isn't that why most of us are here?

So after many delays and much procrastination, I did the initial test fit last week. Motor only, no transmission yet. I'm hoping for a second test fit this week with the transmission bolted up.

A little info on putting a 6 speed in a MN12, the new version of the T-56 made its grand entrance into the automotive industry in the form of a TR-6060, with '07 Shelby Cobra wrapping paper. Key features include: 600ft-lb rating, *remote mount shifter*, hydraulic clutch, and it bolts to the 4.6L. It sells new for about 3k. I paid less for mine than the Viper T-56 I picked up last year. That’s probably because no one on Ebay had ever heard of it before. I switched to the TR-6060 because the company producing the conversion bell housing that will bolt the Viper T-56 to the Ford Modular block is working on the third revision, and I was tired of waiting. Also, with the remote mount shifter, it cures the shifter placement issue. The biggest problem with the TR-6060 so far, has been getting the shifter pieces. Since it is so new, the Ford guys don't even know what it is yet. I got the Tri-ax shifter for it, but it doesn't come with the shifting rod and one of the bushings. Maybe this week I'll be able to corner the parts guy at Ford and see if they list the individual parts yet. As far as I know, all that is available is the entire shifter a$$embly. Another thing that will crop up later down the line is that it doesn't have a slip yoke on the tail shaft...?? Does anyone know what kind of setup the Shelby is running in the rear end? Maybe I got an odd ball transmission.

This week I need to come up with the T-Bird/Mark VIII oil pan and trim/box the front subframe to clear the alternator. Maybe by Friday I'll have pics of the engine sitting in the car... but for now.

The donor car;
Donor

The dash. If this doesn't make you feel queasy, you have issues. This is about 75% done. I'm using the Cobra Gem module, instrument cluster, and computer, and maintaining the auto headlights and climate control from the SC.
Dash

The new radiator, same settup as the Cobra. This was an easy fit, but I still need to come up with the expansion tanks for the intercooler and radiator. I would prefer stock tanks due to price, and for the sake of keeping the engine compartment looking like something Ford should have produced.
Radiator

So when I took the totaled car to Ford to get keys made, the computer wouldn't come up... something about a power pole entering the car where the computer used to reside. I needed to find out if the computer was good, so once I removed the extra Mustang from around the wiring harness, I plugged everything back together and powered it up. It turns out that I was missing three grounds which became disconnected from the rapid deceleration caused by the power pole.
Wiring

Check out the mileage
Cluster

And the motor with the Mustang removed.
Engine

I'll start keeping this thread up to date. If you guys have any questions about compatibility, etc, etc, or info on any of the things I'm currently working on, post a comment and I'll try to get back to you. I think if we can figure out the TR-6060 thing it would be a welcome replacement for the M5R2.

And here's the current plan, or as much as I can remember off the top of my head:
'03 Cobra engine with 2.9" pulley
Dual pass intercooler radiator
Cobra radiator
Cobra anti-locks (Because I most likely won't be the only one to drive the car.)
Cobra brakes 13"/11.65" and bolt circle change
Cobra rear with 4.10 gears (May go back to 3.54s... but will "try-out" the 4.10s)
A lot of custom work on the rear subframe/suspension
TR-6060 6spd transmission
Dual friction FR500C clutch disk
Tri-Ax shifter
Poly suspension bushings
Addco 1 3/8" sway bars front and back
1.5" lowering springs
KYB shocks (I'm hoping for a not-too-harsh ride)
18x9" wheels with 255/45R18s
Cobra returnless dual fuel pump set up (many people groan about this one)
Carbon fiber covering on the dash (Gage clusters are different size)
Cobra pedals - I would consider these ricer material if they weren't connected to a superchared engine, 6spd trans, and 13" brakes.
I haven't picked up the engine management stuff yet, but I'm eyeing the Sniper setup, and possibly an OBDII data logger for tuning.
And last but not least, a few more mods to the stereo system, to add weight to the back tires. I'm thinking about putting in a car computer with a 7" touch screen in the dash. Just so I can pink out the inside of my car, the 3 speaker MB Quart separates are way too harsh. For anyone investing in Quarts... get the silk tweeters.
Lil Mikey is offline  
 

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