4.6 carbed, whats it take? 6-71 blower - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 09:51 AM Thread Starter
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4.6 carbed, whats it take? 6-71 blower

well ive pretty much decided this is what im going to do engine wise.

This thread dosent need to be a ''why are you doing this'','' i dont think its going to be cool'' thread. This thread is only if you have an answer to my questions or something positive to contribute to the thread.

heres what i know so far... if you know something else that will help me, let me know.



what im wanting to do... if i can, i dont know... is to convert the 4.6 i have in there now from 4.6efi to 4.6 carbed, and put a 6-71 blower on it.

i understand that there are diffrent size blowers, 3-71, 4-71, 6-71.

I tryed to do a search on the diffrence but didnt find much.

I dont know alot about this, i just think its going to be cool when its over and done with and would like some input from you guys.

From the shops ive talked to, converting a 4.6 from efi to carbed wouldent be the biggest deal ever, and then it dosent seem like you are far away from what i want to do.

If it comes down to it, ill replace the engine with a 5.0 carbed or something else that i can put this on. im hoping to have it on by this upcomming summer, maybe sooner if it isnt as big of a deal to do than im thinking.


anyway, If you know what it would take to do this, let me know, especially on what it would take to change this engine from efi to carbed, if i even can.
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post #2 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 09:56 AM
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i'm not 100percent sure if there is an exact set up for this but it should be possible to make it work. you could prolly get away with a 5.0 super charger with a custom manifold to mate it to the heads. then i think you would be able to use one of the ignition setup's already in existance. Dave
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post #3 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 10:08 AM
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+10 points for doing what you want. seriously. i can't wait to see it. i think it'll look sweet, and deffinately scare some hondas
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post #4 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 11:18 AM
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you are going to have to keep something in mind.....the ignition, since you will be nixing the SFI on the car, you will need a dedicated ignition system that will pick up the signal from both the cam and crank to give the proper firing order to the distributor setup you will have to have fabricated. I did soem searching and the only Carb setup I have seen for the 4.6 is a twin cam application. Also, you are going to have to budget enough money to have a transmission built to take the power you WANT to put down. In addition to running a totally custom fuel setupto supply this thing. Also, making sure the bottom of the car is braced, which might hinder you from laying frame or pancaking the car.

Finally, what you want to do is something that only a handful of extremely experienced mechanics and gearheads have done. Honestly, for someone with very little actual mechanical experience, you might be biting off a helluva lot more than you can chew. Whatever amount of money you think it might take....double that figure and you will have enough.




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post #5 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 11:27 AM
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KarKraft came up with a stand alone Ign system for the carbed mod motors. Check with them.


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post #6 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 11:36 AM
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searcing aint gonna help ya on this one, i dont think. call weiland and ask them about the 4.6 blower. they used to have one i dont know if they still do or not. they are probably going to be the only ones that can help you out at this point. at least it will give you a start on it. that is if your staying with the 4.6 and its doable.

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post #7 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 11:42 AM
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Ask this guy maybe?

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post #8 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 11:44 AM
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Oh, and MSD sells a distributor for the 4.6L It comes off of one of the cams out the front of the valve cover. You could use that with either a custom intake or one from KarKraft
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post #9 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Obucina
you are going to have to keep something in mind.....the ignition, since you will be nixing the SFI on the car, you will need a dedicated ignition system that will pick up the signal from both the cam and crank to give the proper firing order to the distributor setup you will have to have fabricated.

I think the stock system uses only the crank trigger for the spark and the cam trigger only for the injector synch (I could be wrong)
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post #10 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 12:22 PM
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me thinks so also.




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post #11 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickmckinney
I think the stock system uses only the crank trigger for the spark and the cam trigger only for the injector synch (I could be wrong)
Nope, you're right.

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post #12 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 02:37 PM
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Contact this guy over on MD. He put a 6-71 on a Mark VIII motor nad installed it na T-bucket

http://forums.modulardepot.com/showthread.php?t=74631

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post #13 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timb
Contact this guy over on MD. He put a 6-71 on a Mark VIII motor nad installed it na T-bucket

http://forums.modulardepot.com/showthread.php?t=74631
huhuh....you said nad.




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post #14 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 05:51 PM
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post #15 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 06:43 PM
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post #16 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 06:57 PM
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IMHO...with the setup of bagged...your suspenion is not gonna take a up and down torque of a blower...i know that if you get it in then.. i know ,and if me i would have to see the power,,mashing gas pedal ....remember you had problems with the shocks once......to me,,, buy a blown engine bird and blower it ...then you know what you need to do in advanced..BTW> GOOD LUCK ANY CHOICE YOU MAKE ...i would love to see it anyway you choose

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post #17 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 07:45 PM Thread Starter
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Heres an update:

Ive talked to two shops around here, both say it can be done. both say alot of bracing would have to be done.

They are saying anywhere from 4-600hp could be expected... holy crap... the 6-71s normally run at about 15-18 boost.

Those are some huge numbers to think about. i am not understanding how your going to turn 220hp into 500hp off the same motor, although this is about as huge of a upgrade as you could do.

Any thoughts?
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post #18 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 09:13 PM
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To be quite honest, were I in your shoes and I wanted an SC setup for that car, I would look into a Kenne Bell kit for the SOHC 4.6, or maybe a DOHC. It'll look slick and make some good power (I love how the DOHC motors look, especially with a blower on top), and they should fit under your hood setup. And I know you arent concerned about $$$ or time/effort, but the KB route would be cheaper, simpler, and would probably be much more drivable. And its not like there are a ton of MN12s out there with SCed DOHCs in them, if your worried about individuality.

It seems to me that in your particular case power numbers aren't going to be much more than bragging rights, due to the suspension, chassis, and wheel/tire selection being considerably less than ideal for actually getting those sort of power numbers onto the pavement.

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post #19 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musto
... the 6-71s normally run at about 15-18 boost.
If any shop is quoting you 15-18psi of boost on a standard trim street driven roots blown engine either needs their head examined or is blowing more smoke than a 3.8 with blown head gaskets.

You need to find a better engine shop to deal with. A roots supercharged car made for the street will normally be in the 5-8 psi range.

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post #20 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 10:52 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbirdbrain
If any shop is quoting you 15-18psi of boost on a standard trim street driven roots blown engine either needs their head examined or is blowing more smoke than a 3.8 with blown head gaskets.

You need to find a better engine shop to deal with. A roots supercharged car made for the street will normally be in the 5-8 psi range.
Roots Efficiency map

For any given roots blower running under given conditions, a single point will fall on the map. This point will rise with increasing boost and will move to the right with increasing blower speed. It can be seen that at moderate speed and low boost the efficiency can be over 90%. This is the area in which roots blowers were originally intended to operate and they are very good at it.

Boost is given in terms of pressure ratio which is the ratio of absolute air pressure before the blower to the absolute air pressure after compression by the blower. If no boost is present the pressure ratio will be 1.0 (meaning 1:1) as the outlet pressure equals the inlet pressure. 15 psi boost is marked for reference (slightly above a pressure ratio of 2.0 compared to atmospheric pressure). At 15 psi boost Roots blowers hover between 50% to 58%. Replacing a smaller blower with a larger blower moves the point to the left. In most cases, as the map shows, this will moves it into higher efficiency areas on the left as the smaller blower likely will have been running fast on the right of the chart. Usually, using a larger blower and running it slower to achieve the same boost will give an increase in compressor efficiency.

The volumetric efficiency of the roots type blower is very good. Usually staying above 90% at all but the lowest blower speeds. Because of this, even a blower running at low efficiency will still mechanically deliver the intended volume of air to the engine but that air will be hotter. In drag racing applications where large volumes of fuel are injected with that hot air, vaporizing the fuel absorbs the heat. This functions as a kind of liquid after cooler system.



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post #21 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 10:55 PM
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Ok, first of all, don't go with a weiand blower. They look mean, but they are nowhere near as efficient as most of the other blowers that are available now. The eaton M112 would probably be your best bet since they are readily available, and much better performance, and will still give you the cool look, and wouldn't be any harder to fab up an intake to make it work with your 4.6. The eaton blower will probably be much cheaper too. Also with the eaton you could run an intercooler. To the best of my knowledge, you can't run an intercooler with a weiand.

Next issue, your 4.6 has hypereutectic pistons, powdered metal rods, and a cast crank. If you throw 18psi at that motor, you WILL break something in the bottom end before you get home from the shop after picking it up. Especially if that boost is coming from a roots blower. Roots blowers make peak boost at much lower rpms than centrifugals or turbos. This is good because it makes the car a lot of fun on the street, but it also means that the same boost pressure out of a roots blower is much harder on the bottom end than out of a turbo or centrifugal. If you are going to supercharge a stock bottom end with a roots blower, keep the boost down to about 6psi while you save up for forged internals, cause something will break eventually. If you want the 18psi and 500hp, you better build a bottom end that can handle it first.

Next issue, why do you want to go carbed? Is this just for looks or what? In my opinion, the money spent on an intake manifold and the carburators, and the aftermarket ignition system, etc., you could keep the car fuel injected get a tune for the blower and everything else you are going to do, and spend your money fabbing other things that will improve the durability and performance of the motor. Carburators have their place, but not in a car made for the street. Sequential electronic fuel injection will give you more performance, better reliability, better gas mileage, better control over air/fuel ratio through the entire RPM band, better idle quality, better cold start drivability, the list goes on. If you really want carbs and you have it set in your head, then that's fine, but I just want you to know that it isn't a step in the right direction if your goal is to get the best performance out of this motor.

Now, from the sounds of it, you want the car to have more power, but you also want the engine to fit in with the rest of the car and be something custom, and not the same explorer motor with an SVO blower that you see in all the tbirds. My suggestion would be to get a mark 8 engine, replace the heads with the newer "C" heads, and use the blower off an 03 cobra. This would be a very custom setup, it would have plenty of performance, it would fit in with the rest of the car, and once everything is running, you could also upgrade the blower and intake and get even more power. Some of the 03 cobras are running well over 600hp, and are still totally drivable on the street. You'll never be able to get those power levels WITH good streetability with a carburator and a weiand. Good luck with whatever you decide to do, and I don't want you to think that I'm bashing your ideas, I just want to offer some insight into other alternatives that might better accomplish your goals for the car.

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post #22 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 10:59 PM
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You're also gonna need to forge out the whole engine which is gonna cost a pretty penny as well. If you don't you'll blow pistons in 1-2 drives.

MadMikey posted as I put this in.... he explained it alot better.

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post #23 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musto
The volumetric efficiency of the roots type blower is very good. Usually staying above 90% at all but the lowest blower speeds.


Total total hogwash. Roots blowers, especially those old 2 lobe straight rotor GM 6-7X ones are the most inefficient compressors you could possibly put on an engine.

No way, NO WAY, you're going to make 400 horses with a 6-71 on a street 4.6 2V. That compressor makes so much heat, and you have no intercooler.


And I don't know why anyone is talking about Boost numbers, it's a totally useless number, simply measuring backpressure in the intake tract, showing just how inefficient your engine is at getting air into it. You'd like to have 0 boost.

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post #24 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 11:09 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL
Ok, first of all, don't go with a weiand blower. They look mean, but they are nowhere near as efficient as most of the other blowers that are available now. The eaton M112 would probably be your best bet since they are readily available, and much better performance, and will still give you the cool look, and wouldn't be any harder to fab up an intake to make it work with your 4.6. The eaton blower will probably be much cheaper too. Also with the eaton you could run an intercooler. To the best of my knowledge, you can't run an intercooler with a weiand.

Next issue, your 4.6 has hypereutectic pistons, powdered metal rods, and a cast crank. If you throw 18psi at that motor, you WILL break something in the bottom end before you get home from the shop after picking it up. Especially if that boost is coming from a roots blower. Roots blowers make peak boost at much lower rpms than centrifugals or turbos. This is good because it makes the car a lot of fun on the street, but it also means that the same boost pressure out of a roots blower is much harder on the bottom end than out of a turbo or centrifugal. If you are going to supercharge a stock bottom end with a roots blower, keep the boost down to about 6psi while you save up for forged internals, cause something will break eventually. If you want the 18psi and 500hp, you better build a bottom end that can handle it first.

Next issue, why do you want to go carbed? Is this just for looks or what? In my opinion, the money spent on an intake manifold and the carburators, and the aftermarket ignition system, etc., you could keep the car fuel injected get a tune for the blower and everything else you are going to do, and spend your money fabbing other things that will improve the durability and performance of the motor. Carburators have their place, but not in a car made for the street. Sequential electronic fuel injection will give you more performance, better reliability, better gas mileage, better control over air/fuel ratio through the entire RPM band, better idle quality, better cold start drivability, the list goes on. If you really want carbs and you have it set in your head, then that's fine, but I just want you to know that it isn't a step in the right direction if your goal is to get the best performance out of this motor.

Now, from the sounds of it, you want the car to have more power, but you also want the engine to fit in with the rest of the car and be something custom, and not the same explorer motor with an SVO blower that you see in all the tbirds. My suggestion would be to get a mark 8 engine, replace the heads with the newer "C" heads, and use the blower off an 03 cobra. This would be a very custom setup, it would have plenty of performance, it would fit in with the rest of the car, and once everything is running, you could also upgrade the blower and intake and get even more power. Some of the 03 cobras are running well over 600hp, and are still totally drivable on the street. You'll never be able to get those power levels WITH good streetability with a carburator and a weiand. Good luck with whatever you decide to do, and I don't want you to think that I'm bashing your ideas, I just want to offer some insight into other alternatives that might better accomplish your goals for the car.

Mike
thanks for the info...

The main reason why i am trying to go with this style blower isnt because of the power really... im not trying to turn this thing into a 11second drag car or anything, i mainly just like the look of having that thing stick through the hood with the butterfly scoop on top of the carbs.


having the cobra supercharger or a aed or that type of supercharger just dosent have the same feel behind it as this does... maybe im shooting too high, but i dont want to change this idea unless its not doable fo a reasonable ammount of work.
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post #25 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 11:26 PM
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Well it is doable. I know you aren't trying to make a drag car out of it, but I just figured if you want the performance and you are spending that much money, you would want to put it into making the most power you could. If you do go with the weiand and carbs, just make sure to build up the rest of the motor and the trans to handle the abuse that a blower will throw at them. You might want to get another 4.6 and have the shop build that motor, and then just do the swap when they are done building it. This way you won't be without the car for too long.

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post #26 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
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thanks for the info...

The main reason why i am trying to go with this style blower isnt because of the power really... im not trying to turn this thing into a 11second drag car or anything, i mainly just like the look of having that thing stick through the hood with the butterfly scoop on top of the carbs.


having the cobra supercharger or a aed or that type of supercharger just dosent have the same feel behind it as this does... maybe im shooting too high, but i dont want to change this idea unless its not doable fo a reasonable ammount of work.

Well that makes all the difference. You know, they don't even have to have rotors inside them, they don't have to actually do anything. You can fake it. Carbs or speed density EFI, and empty blower case mounted on some sort of manifold. The gilmer drive is still going to make all the noise it normally would. Seen it before.

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post #27 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 11:29 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdanner
Well that makes all the difference. You know, they don't even have to have rotors inside them, they don't have to actually do anything. You can fake it. Carbs or speed density EFI, and empty blower case mounted on some sort of manifold. The gilmer drive is still going to make all the noise it normally would. Seen it before.

haha, thats not a half bad idea, haha.


it would all have to be made from scratch though? they dont actually make fake blowers and manifolds and all do they?
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post #28 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 11:55 PM
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You take the rotors out of the case, that's all there is to that.

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post #29 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-08-2006, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by musto
haha, thats not a half bad idea, haha.


it would all have to be made from scratch though? they dont actually make fake blowers and manifolds and all do they?
Can I have my brain cells back......

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post #30 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-08-2006, 07:10 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DMcBrideBoston
Can I have my brain cells back......
you can have a nice kick in the teeth
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